That couldn't be unintentional or intentional backhand English could it?
A long comment on "aiming systems" ...
- Thread starter Grilled Cheese
- Start date
That couldn't be unintentional or intentional backhand English could it?
Can I see the video? Did you try a thick cut stun shot where the OB is 4-5 ft away from the pocket?
NO...........
Maybe swoop?
Why would he do anything but shoot straight (no spin)? He's not looking to get position on the next ball. He is showing how to set up and shoot the ball in to a pocket 2 to 3 foot away. Johnnyt
Maybe John is like that Mexican champion who does that on practically every shot.
JC
Coos Cues
That cause for missing isn't limited to PRO1, it's the basis for all missed shots no matter how you line them up.
With that arm flapping about, I believe some people call it a "chicken wing stroke."
I'm getting hungry for some chicken wings. :wink:
That must be it. Cha cha cha. Thanks for clearing that up for me.Johnnyt
No, you must be thinking about Joe Chamaco.
That's not the guy I am thinking of. :grin:
Thanks Mr. Cheese - I've really enjoyed this thread.
I've enjoyed reading JB's comments as well.
What the heck, I've enjoyed all of the input (Lou, Neil, Randy, Roger, the whole gang, even champ -- I'm feeling generous at the moment).
Anyhoo, I wanted to put another vote in for cueing fundamentals over aiming systems. I know....I know....the aiming system advocates don't believe that the fundamentals are unimportant. But...the proof is in the pudding. I go back to the idea of how much have you improved since you started using CTE? JoeyA, Neil, and JB say they are playing better. More balls are going into the hole. That's cool. Neil mentioned he is spotting some guys more balls than he used to, or something to that affect. That's great. So, if that's the case I can see how there will never be a winner in this argument. If I was using CTE and I was playing better, it would be impossible to convince me that it wasn't helping my game. For everybody else, the question you need to ask yourself is - are you really playing better?
My story is the opposite of this. For the past couple years (especially the past year) I have been working on my cueing action almost exclusively. Just firing in balls - longs shots with draw, follow, inside, outside. Off the rail shots. Jacked up shots. You name it. The focus has been just on my cueing action. I'm shooting straighter now than I have ever shot. I still have a long way to go but I'm beginning to see my work pay off.
I went out last weekend and got to play. I won the little tournament that I played in and afterwards played some 9 ball with a really good player getting the 8. When it was all said and done I was giving up the 8 ball. I'll admit my opponent wasn't at his best that day and I'm sure we will play again and the results may turn out differently, but it sure was nice to begin to see the fruits of my labor.
The amazing part about what I have been practicing is - now that I am cueing so much better all the aiming problems that I had before are beginning to disappear. Imagine that. I'm really not doing anything any different as far as how I align the shots. The thing that has changed is I now know when I miss whether it was an aiming error or a cueing error -before I wasn't really sure. I think a lot of guys are in this situation. You're not sure if you are missing because of your cueing action or because you aren't lined up properly.
So, those of you in the CTE camp are attempting to eliminate the variable of aiming. So now when you miss you just say that your stroke is off. I'm the exact opposite of this. When I miss - I now know that it's because of my alignment. You follow me??? So basically, I think the CTE guys have it backwards. I don't really think you can eliminate aiming as a variable, but once you are cueing straighter - you can then start to feel (oh not that word) all the shots. In other words, you can begin to memorize all the different cut angles. The coolest part of this is – it really doesn’t take that long to incorporate all these different cut angles into your game, provided you are shooting straight.
Lastly, I really think that us pool players get away with sloppy fundamentals when you compare us to our snooker brethren. Some guys come up playing on bar tables, or 8 footers, or even 9 footer with big pockets, and everybody sort of stumbles upon what ever fundamentals appear to work for them. As they get better, they work out these wrinkles. In the long run, I think this may be why us pool players struggle more with aiming than the snooker guys. In snooker, fundamentals are essential. So developing a straight stroke is the where the majority of the time is spent (I'm just guessing anyway). And what I have figured out is - ONCE THE STROKE IS STRAIGHT THE AIMING IS VERY EASY!!!
Wow – I just reread this and it’s sort of all over the place so don’t tear it apart too bad.
I've enjoyed reading JB's comments as well.
What the heck, I've enjoyed all of the input (Lou, Neil, Randy, Roger, the whole gang, even champ -- I'm feeling generous at the moment).
Anyhoo, I wanted to put another vote in for cueing fundamentals over aiming systems. I know....I know....the aiming system advocates don't believe that the fundamentals are unimportant. But...the proof is in the pudding. I go back to the idea of how much have you improved since you started using CTE? JoeyA, Neil, and JB say they are playing better. More balls are going into the hole. That's cool. Neil mentioned he is spotting some guys more balls than he used to, or something to that affect. That's great. So, if that's the case I can see how there will never be a winner in this argument. If I was using CTE and I was playing better, it would be impossible to convince me that it wasn't helping my game. For everybody else, the question you need to ask yourself is - are you really playing better?
My story is the opposite of this. For the past couple years (especially the past year) I have been working on my cueing action almost exclusively. Just firing in balls - longs shots with draw, follow, inside, outside. Off the rail shots. Jacked up shots. You name it. The focus has been just on my cueing action. I'm shooting straighter now than I have ever shot. I still have a long way to go but I'm beginning to see my work pay off.
I went out last weekend and got to play. I won the little tournament that I played in and afterwards played some 9 ball with a really good player getting the 8. When it was all said and done I was giving up the 8 ball. I'll admit my opponent wasn't at his best that day and I'm sure we will play again and the results may turn out differently, but it sure was nice to begin to see the fruits of my labor.
The amazing part about what I have been practicing is - now that I am cueing so much better all the aiming problems that I had before are beginning to disappear. Imagine that. I'm really not doing anything any different as far as how I align the shots. The thing that has changed is I now know when I miss whether it was an aiming error or a cueing error -before I wasn't really sure. I think a lot of guys are in this situation. You're not sure if you are missing because of your cueing action or because you aren't lined up properly.
So, those of you in the CTE camp are attempting to eliminate the variable of aiming. So now when you miss you just say that your stroke is off. I'm the exact opposite of this. When I miss - I now know that it's because of my alignment. You follow me??? So basically, I think the CTE guys have it backwards. I don't really think you can eliminate aiming as a variable, but once you are cueing straighter - you can then start to feel (oh not that word) all the shots. In other words, you can begin to memorize all the different cut angles. The coolest part of this is – it really doesn’t take that long to incorporate all these different cut angles into your game, provided you are shooting straight.
Lastly, I really think that us pool players get away with sloppy fundamentals when you compare us to our snooker brethren. Some guys come up playing on bar tables, or 8 footers, or even 9 footer with big pockets, and everybody sort of stumbles upon what ever fundamentals appear to work for them. As they get better, they work out these wrinkles. In the long run, I think this may be why us pool players struggle more with aiming than the snooker guys. In snooker, fundamentals are essential. So developing a straight stroke is the where the majority of the time is spent (I'm just guessing anyway). And what I have figured out is - ONCE THE STROKE IS STRAIGHT THE AIMING IS VERY EASY!!!
Wow – I just reread this and it’s sort of all over the place so don’t tear it apart too bad.
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i hope you did not write anything silly in it 
TheThaiger
Banned
BasementDwellers post just reminded me of something worthy of this thread:
I've completely changed my shooting style 3 times in the past 5 or so years. All changes directly affected how I visually perceived the shot.
The first change was getting pool shooting glasses. Before the glasses, I could only see the cue ball clearly, or the object ball clearly, or the pocket clearly. Only one item at a time. Never two or three simultaneously. Getting the glasses completely changed what I could see simultaneously, and hence my perception of the shot.
The second change was I bought Geno's dvd and switched to the method of head alignment and eye use that he advocates. I basically was aiming shots with different eyes now on particular shots, and with different head positions. It meant my perception of the shot changed quite a bit from what I was used to.
The third change was just a few months ago, I switched to a much higher stance due to back problems. Again, my perception of the shot changed quite a bit from what I was used to before.
In all 3 cases, I had to "relearn" some shots. They just looked different, and I had to just get a new "feel" for them by spending a few minutes on problem shots, and also just playing the ghost on my own to get a feel for the general change in my visual perception each change brought upon.
So here is the relevant part to this thread: In all 3 cases, it just took me about a week of playing to become completely comfortable with my new perception of the shot, and to have the same overall speed as before. My point is, at least in my experience, aiming and sighting are so simple, that 3 separate drastic changes in my situation, took only 1 week to feel completely comfortable with. I just can't understand how someone can say it takes months or years to see the right shot line.
I've completely changed my shooting style 3 times in the past 5 or so years. All changes directly affected how I visually perceived the shot.
The first change was getting pool shooting glasses. Before the glasses, I could only see the cue ball clearly, or the object ball clearly, or the pocket clearly. Only one item at a time. Never two or three simultaneously. Getting the glasses completely changed what I could see simultaneously, and hence my perception of the shot.
The second change was I bought Geno's dvd and switched to the method of head alignment and eye use that he advocates. I basically was aiming shots with different eyes now on particular shots, and with different head positions. It meant my perception of the shot changed quite a bit from what I was used to.
The third change was just a few months ago, I switched to a much higher stance due to back problems. Again, my perception of the shot changed quite a bit from what I was used to before.
In all 3 cases, I had to "relearn" some shots. They just looked different, and I had to just get a new "feel" for them by spending a few minutes on problem shots, and also just playing the ghost on my own to get a feel for the general change in my visual perception each change brought upon.
So here is the relevant part to this thread: In all 3 cases, it just took me about a week of playing to become completely comfortable with my new perception of the shot, and to have the same overall speed as before. My point is, at least in my experience, aiming and sighting are so simple, that 3 separate drastic changes in my situation, took only 1 week to feel completely comfortable with. I just can't understand how someone can say it takes months or years to see the right shot line.
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For some people, aiming systems are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
I do not doubt that there are people who are deficient in their ability to aim. I just think that aiming is something that can be and is learned fairly well in the intermediate stage of one's pool game development. What is holding players back is stroke.
I also believe that when a player gets stuck at a certain point, or plateaus...chances are they can look back to stroke as the cause for that. It's not just about proper cuing, but over all consistency. That's the hard part. Building yourself into a machine that can repeat something the same way time and time again is very difficult. That is why I sometimes say the aiming system people want the diet pill easy way out.
Why think of aiming as the obstacle, when most players cannot get down and execute a particular shot exactly the same way 50 out of 50 times?
It's easier to tell someone their aim is off. It's easier for someone to cling to the idea that their aim is bad. Because on the surface, aiming is something that can be learned and applied mentally and visually. Consistency is a function of the mind, vision and body. Consistency absolutely relies on hard core muscle memory and extreme high level discipline. That takes work.
The way the whole thing is presented by many of the aimers is as if they are suggesting they've got the stroke part down pat. Now, when I say that - they freak out and say "we don't down play stroke" ...I understand that, but how/why does one toil with an aiming system when they cannot produce consistent stroke results?
Again, as I mentioned previously in this now long thread, I will bring back an analogy I used.
Say you learn something in a book. For example, you learn how to make a closed bridge. You see it. It tells you step by step how to move your fingers to get it done. Where they should be. How it should look. But that newbie player then goes to do it. And what happens? They can't quite get it right. Because while they KNOW what to do, their muscles/body does not know what to do.
Same with stroke mechanics. We all know what the text-book perfect stance and stroke looks like. Most of us know what we need to do, how to do it. But does our body and muscles know how to do it? Perhaps sometimes. For beginners, they don't. Most grips, stances and strokes (whatever the sport) are awkward for beginners. They feel unnatural. Anything being done for the first time, that is unfamiliar doesn't feel natural or right. But as it is practiced, the muscles and body become comfortable with those movements and positions.
Eventually, the body knows how to do these things. The arm knows how to stroke the ball. The muscles are familiar with the motion. At that point, it is known what needs to be done - now the problem or goal is training the body and mind to be able to do it consistently. Which means, without flaw or for a great number of repetitions before error.
It's like the saying "amateurs practice until they get it right, pros practice until they can't get it wrong"
That's it in a nutshell really. I'll talk about myself briefly. I have made every single known shot on the table several times before. The most extreme cuts. The table length draw shots. The toughest speed control shots. The most delicate hits. You name it. I have come across it all, and successfully executed all of them, many times on different occasions.
But can I do that to the vast majority of those shots nearly all the time? NO. Repeat. NO. If I could, I'd be a pro. I'm not even talking about super hard shots, those even the pros miss. Great pool isn't making tough shots all the time, it's having the control to set yourself up for easy shots all the time. To do that, one needs consistency.
It's not aim that botches that up most of the time. It's failure in speed control, it's improper cuing causing inadvertent spin, or too much or too little spin. It's improper cuing that alters angles by the ever slightest of margins, which changes the course of everything that results from the shot (direction of CB, OB etctera). It's many things like that.
To prove this to myself, I used to do practice drills where I would force myself to absolutely declare out loud every single thing I was doing before I would do it. Therefore, everything had a plan, but more so - to prove that I knew exactly what to do. There was no ignorance on the shot. Including line of aim. And that way - it becomes strictly a matter of EXECUTION. When the execution fails, I have nothing else to look at but mechanics, which includes stroke.
Aim is critical and is mandatory part of the game, but it is overrated in the over all equation of what to work on the most and what will pay off the most in one's game.
I do not doubt that there are people who are deficient in their ability to aim. I just think that aiming is something that can be and is learned fairly well in the intermediate stage of one's pool game development. What is holding players back is stroke.
I also believe that when a player gets stuck at a certain point, or plateaus...chances are they can look back to stroke as the cause for that. It's not just about proper cuing, but over all consistency. That's the hard part. Building yourself into a machine that can repeat something the same way time and time again is very difficult. That is why I sometimes say the aiming system people want the diet pill easy way out.
Why think of aiming as the obstacle, when most players cannot get down and execute a particular shot exactly the same way 50 out of 50 times?
It's easier to tell someone their aim is off. It's easier for someone to cling to the idea that their aim is bad. Because on the surface, aiming is something that can be learned and applied mentally and visually. Consistency is a function of the mind, vision and body. Consistency absolutely relies on hard core muscle memory and extreme high level discipline. That takes work.
The way the whole thing is presented by many of the aimers is as if they are suggesting they've got the stroke part down pat. Now, when I say that - they freak out and say "we don't down play stroke" ...I understand that, but how/why does one toil with an aiming system when they cannot produce consistent stroke results?
Again, as I mentioned previously in this now long thread, I will bring back an analogy I used.
Say you learn something in a book. For example, you learn how to make a closed bridge. You see it. It tells you step by step how to move your fingers to get it done. Where they should be. How it should look. But that newbie player then goes to do it. And what happens? They can't quite get it right. Because while they KNOW what to do, their muscles/body does not know what to do.
Same with stroke mechanics. We all know what the text-book perfect stance and stroke looks like. Most of us know what we need to do, how to do it. But does our body and muscles know how to do it? Perhaps sometimes. For beginners, they don't. Most grips, stances and strokes (whatever the sport) are awkward for beginners. They feel unnatural. Anything being done for the first time, that is unfamiliar doesn't feel natural or right. But as it is practiced, the muscles and body become comfortable with those movements and positions.
Eventually, the body knows how to do these things. The arm knows how to stroke the ball. The muscles are familiar with the motion. At that point, it is known what needs to be done - now the problem or goal is training the body and mind to be able to do it consistently. Which means, without flaw or for a great number of repetitions before error.
It's like the saying "amateurs practice until they get it right, pros practice until they can't get it wrong"
That's it in a nutshell really. I'll talk about myself briefly. I have made every single known shot on the table several times before. The most extreme cuts. The table length draw shots. The toughest speed control shots. The most delicate hits. You name it. I have come across it all, and successfully executed all of them, many times on different occasions.
But can I do that to the vast majority of those shots nearly all the time? NO. Repeat. NO. If I could, I'd be a pro. I'm not even talking about super hard shots, those even the pros miss. Great pool isn't making tough shots all the time, it's having the control to set yourself up for easy shots all the time. To do that, one needs consistency.
It's not aim that botches that up most of the time. It's failure in speed control, it's improper cuing causing inadvertent spin, or too much or too little spin. It's improper cuing that alters angles by the ever slightest of margins, which changes the course of everything that results from the shot (direction of CB, OB etctera). It's many things like that.
To prove this to myself, I used to do practice drills where I would force myself to absolutely declare out loud every single thing I was doing before I would do it. Therefore, everything had a plan, but more so - to prove that I knew exactly what to do. There was no ignorance on the shot. Including line of aim. And that way - it becomes strictly a matter of EXECUTION. When the execution fails, I have nothing else to look at but mechanics, which includes stroke.
Aim is critical and is mandatory part of the game, but it is overrated in the over all equation of what to work on the most and what will pay off the most in one's game.
Well, I liked it. And I think the part about the aiming systems disappearing the better you execute your stroke is very true.
Lou Figueroa
That must be it. Cha cha cha. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
I found a video of the guy I was thinking about. Watch this guy, on almost every shot he swoops his cue. (and no, I'm not talking about Mika)
