How did Ralph Greenleaf "Aim"?

dr_dave said:
[...]

If anybody is unsure concerning which previous post I am referring to, you will need to re-read the entire thread to know.

[...]
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DAM = [D]ave's [A]cademy (or [A]rt?) of [M]anipulation. I like how you manipulated this point to be "readers must read the entire thread" -- which *you know* is not what I said. "See post #so-and-so" (with a link, since you seem fond of 'em) is a completely different animal from "readers must read the entire thread."

But DAM(tm), you're good at that manipulation thing. :)
-Sean
 
sfleinen said:
DAM = [D]ave's [A]cademy (or [A]rt?) of [M]anipulation. I like how you manipulated this point to be "readers must read the entire thread" -- which *you know* is not what I said. "See post #so-and-so" (with a link, since you seem fond of 'em) is a completely different animal from "readers must read the entire thread."

But DAM(tm), you're good at that manipulation thing. :)
-Sean
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i have been saying this along time now and he sucks in 98% of the board with it too :thumbup: he is sneaky :)
 
Bob Jewett said:
The real question is how did he ever make a ball with that stroke?
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Right! Crooked backswing (in toward his body) and a drastic change in grip pressure on forceful shots.

I think I'll try that.

[Looks like he also had a bit of a temper.]
 
His finish is similar to Efren's and Lassiter's. I've found with the faster tables, a shorter stroke with this type of hand/grip movement can put a lot of spin on the cue ball. I can also create angles or hold the cue ball better. In tight traffic or when I need to draw back quickly and not hit another ball with deflection, I use this stroke.

The crooked backswing is not too impressive, but he was still a champion.

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
His finish is similar to Efren's and Lassiter's. I've found with the faster tables, a shorter stroke with this type of hand/grip movement can put a lot of spin on the cue ball. I can also create angles or hold the cue ball better. In tight traffic or when I need to draw back quickly and not hit another ball with deflection, I use this stroke.

The crooked backswing is not too impressive, but he was still a champion.

Best,
Mike
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Folks:

Be careful in how you classify Greenleaf's stroke. Look closely at his grip hand throughout his stroke, and you'll see why -- a pronounced slip-stroke. The issue with the butt of the cue "swinging inward towards the body" on the backswing is common, because most of the meat of your hand is on the outside of the cue, and during the "slip-and-regrip" phase, it's common that the cue is "bumped" inwards a bit.

But again, back in those days, the slip-stroke was a common and much-desired skill to have. Pat Howey, Willie Mosconi, and Cowboy Jimmy Moore are other examples of past champions with a noticeable slip-stroke (Willie's wasn't as pronounced as Jimmy Moore's, but it's still there on most shots).

-Sean
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Hal never said he learned to aim from Ralph Greenleaf. In fact, he stated that Ralph was an "idiot savant" when it came to aiming and ball pocketing. Hal claims CTE was invented by no other than himself.
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At Large and JoeyA have both now testified to this very thing, and I think it pretty clearly establishes Hal Houle as one of the first - if not the very first - to employ insults when pushing CTE.

There are a lot of pool-playing "savants" out there who cannot explain how they achieve the great things they do, but to call them "idiots" is totally unwarranted and nothing more than an insult.

Roger
 
Roger Long said:
At Large and JoeyA have both now testified to this very thing, and I think it pretty clearly establishes Hal Houle as one of the first - if not the very first - to employ insults when pushing CTE.

There are a lot of pool-playing "savants" out there who cannot explain how they achieve the great things they do, but to call them "idiots" is totally unwarranted and nothing more than an insult.

Roger
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I guess you don't know what an idiot savant is, Roger. The terms are one and the same. I doubt there are ANY savant pool players, in the true meaning of the word. It's a syndrome, with it being first defined as "idiot savant" back in the 1800's. "Idiot savant" was the term used well up to Hal's time, as it was the common/only way to describe someone with that condition.

Hal uses the term as a metaphor (just as you used "savant" as a metaphor as there are definitely no true savant pool players).

In fact, his metaphor means the opposite of an insult.

Christ, I hate even explaining this but your post is just so simpleton-like I couldn't let it go. Unreal, Rog. *shaking my head in disbelief*
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I guess you don't know what an idiot savant is, Roger. The terms are one and the same. I doubt there are ANY savant pool players, in the true meaning of the word. It's a syndrome, with it being first defined as "idiot savant" back in the 1800's. "Idiot savant" was the term used well up to Hal's time, as it was the common/only way to describe someone with that condition.

Hal uses the term as a metaphor (just as you used "savant" as a metaphor as there are definitely no true savant pool players).

In fact, his metaphor means the opposite of an insult.

Christ, I hate even explaining this but your post is just so simpleton-like I couldn't let it go. Unreal, Rog. *shaking my head in disbelief*
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Now thats funny. I owe you a beer.
 
Roger Long said:
At Large and JoeyA have both now testified to this very thing, and I think it pretty clearly establishes Hal Houle as one of the first - if not the very first - to employ insults when pushing CTE.

There are a lot of pool-playing "savants" out there who cannot explain how they achieve the great things they do, but to call them "idiots" is totally unwarranted and nothing more than an insult.

Roger
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You're drawing a false conclusion from what I said, Roger. I had long conversations with Hal about all sorts of people in the pool world past and present. One of those people was Greenleaf. That's when Hal used the term "idiot savant," meaning that Greenleaf was a brilliant player but not someone who could explain how he did what he did. Hal also used that same term about another player from Hal's distant past. Neither of those references had anything to do with CTE.

Hal's discussion of his personal development of CTE over a 10-year period had nothing to do with Greenleaf. That is, Hal was not arguing that it was his own system and not Greenleaf's; Hal was simply saying that it was one of the many systems that Hal himself has developed.

So Hal was not employing insults "when pushing CTE," at least not with me.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I guess you don't know what an idiot savant is, Roger. The terms are one and the same. I doubt there are ANY savant pool players, in the true meaning of the word. It's a syndrome, with it being first defined as "idiot savant" back in the 1800's. "Idiot savant" was the term used well up to Hal's time, as it was the common/only way to describe someone with that condition.

Hal uses the term as a metaphor (just as you used "savant" as a metaphor as there are definitely no true savant pool players).

In fact, his metaphor means the opposite of an insult.

Christ, I hate even explaining this but your post is just so simpleton-like I couldn't let it go. Unreal, Rog. *shaking my head in disbelief*
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Well, let's just see what Webster has to say about it:

idiot 1 a retarded person mentally equal or inferior to a child two years old: see MENTAL RETARDATION 2 a very foolish or stupid person

savant a learned person; eminent scholar

So when you put the two together you describe a very stupid person who has learned something despite their own stupidity. Yeah, that's a heck of a compliment alright.

But I really shouldn't doubt your knowledge of genuine insults since you are the current-day king in that department. Hal taught you well.

Roger
 
Roger Long said:
Well, let's just see what Webster has to say about it:

idiot 1 a retarded person mentally equal or inferior to a child two years old: see MENTAL RETARDATION 2 a very foolish or stupid person

savant a learned person; eminent scholar

So when you put the two together you describe a very stupid person who has learned something despite their own stupidity. Yeah, that's a heck of a compliment alright.

But I really shouldn't doubt your knowledge of genuine insults since you are the current-day king in that department. Hal taught you well.

Roger
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Notice you spending a lot of time in the CTE threads lately
obviously your only interest is............. Who the hell knows
Business must be slow
 
Roger Long said:
At Large and JoeyA have both now testified to this very thing, and I think it pretty clearly establishes Hal Houle as one of the first - if not the very first - to employ insults when pushing CTE.

There are a lot of pool-playing "savants" out there who cannot explain how they achieve the great things they do, but to call them "idiots" is totally unwarranted and nothing more than an insult.

Roger
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You know Roger, I get the impression that you have started on some kind of mission of shit-stirring. That surprises me about you. I didn't think you were that kind of person but your posts read different.

It is quite apparent that Ralph had some serious mental issues with his drinking and that he was one of the most if not the most talented player of his time, so the term idiot savant is not so far out of line as you would make it.

It is sad that you have returned to the forum hell bent on stirring up shit.
 
AtLarge said:
You're drawing a false conclusion from what I said, Roger. I had long conversations with Hal about all sorts of people in the pool world past and present. One of those people was Greenleaf. That's when Hal used the term "idiot savant," meaning that Greenleaf was a brilliant player but not someone who could explain how he did what he did. Hal also used that same term about another player from Hal's distant past. Neither of those references had anything to do with CTE.

Hal's discussion of his personal development of CTE over a 10-year period had nothing to do with Greenleaf. That is, Hal was not arguing that it was his own system and not Greenleaf's; Hal was simply saying that it was one of the many systems that Hal himself has developed.

So Hal was not employing insults "when pushing CTE," at least not with me.
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Okay, let's just remove CTE from the mix. Does that make Hal's degrading comment any better? Just because Greenleaf couldn't explain how he played so brilliantly, did that make him an idiot? And would it be okay with you if people started calling you an idiot as long as they tacked on the word savant?

Sorry, At Large, if I sound like I'm railing against you. I'm not. I've always had respect for your contributions to this board, and nothing you've said in this thread has changed that. I'm just trying to get some readers here to see that Hal is no saint, although though some of his supporters try to make it sound like he is, and even to the point of trying to twist one of his obvious insults into a compliment. I seriously doubt that Mr. Greenleaf would have felt complimented by Hal's description of him.

Roger
 
JoeyA said:
You know Roger, I get the impression that you have started on some kind of mission of shit-stirring. That surprises me about you. I didn't think you were that kind of person but your posts read different.

It is quite apparent that Ralph had some serious mental issues with his drinking and that he was one of the most if not the most talented player of his time, so the term idiot savant is not so far out of line as you would make it.

It is sad that you have returned to the forum hell bent on stirring up shit.
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The only thing I'm "hell bent" on is getting at the truth. The whole CTE argument has been, and still is, about marketing. Some "yeasayers" feel like they have discovered pool's greatest secret, and it really rankles them that not everyone agrees with them on that, and so they have been on a campaign to shove their product down the pool-playing world's collective throat. And some "naysayers" resent the sales pitches put out by the CTE pitch men so much that they react like Dagwood Bumstead with the vacuum cleaner salesman.

What I consider really sad, Joey, is that you have been hanging around this forum all along, stirring up the very stuff you accuse me of stirring.

All of this CTE marketing needs to stop.

Roger
 
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