Quality of leather in cases

[ShootingArts]

???

I misspoke. Let me rephrase it, raw cowhide is pretty thick and is almost always split into thinner pieces.

. . . . . .

5/6oz leather is about 2-2.5 mm. So it's easy to see that a 13mm raw cowhide can be split into about five layers of 5/6oz. I thought I had read that some cowhides were about an inch thick. I should have made it clear that I was going from a faulty memory.

I have never seen a full tanned hide that was 3/4" thick. I know that handling a hide that is 8oz is pretty heavy and that is only 1.8th inch. 6x that would be 48oz leather. I don't know any saddle maker that would ever use that but I will ask on www.leatherworker.net if anyone has ever used 3/4" leather. Now I know that some folks do put several layers together to get to 3/4" and some of the heavy sewing machines advertise that they sew up to 1" thick.

I am amazed that you have so much experience in leather on top of everything else. I don't think that there is anything that you haven't done. That you have spent time skinning cows and measuring the thicknesses is just another of the things I can add to your long list of accomplishments. My experience with leather is limited to buying finished leather and working it. Thank you for sharing your experience with us.


(Hu)I never claimed to have measured cow hides or leather sides. I can eyeball that something is less than a half inch as compared to something an inch thick however. I have handled wet hides, rawhide, and leather, plenty enough to give me a rough knowledge concerning such things. Perhaps if you spent more time actually handling leather you would know these things too!

John,

I specifically said I know little about leather. However I was born on a farm, many in my family are farmers today, and I have owned cattle and horses. I've been involved in the building of a few custom saddles too, from the users standpoint. A good saddlemaker can fit the individual horse and rider perfectly but it takes a lot of two way communication and some visits to the saddlemaker's shop. As a horseman I have known a handful of saddle makers over the years and visited almost every saddle shop I have ran across. A custom saddle shop is as fascinating to me as a jewelry store is to a lady! I spent a good bit of time in a local shop watching a maker and his assistant work. Same with a knifemaker and a few other craftsmen. I admire top quality craftsmanship regardless of what the product is and can watch any top craftsman for hours on end. Most welcome the company and I often increased my welcome bringing a little beer in the late afternoon and evening hours.

I am far from an expert on everything but I haven't walked through the world all these years blindfolded and with cotton stuffed in my ears either. We haven't scratched the surface of the things I have at least some knowledge of. I tend to do things for myself rather than having them done for the most part so there is no telling what I may have some knowledge of, many things I have fairly deep knowledge of. I consider that perfectly normal for anyone that doesn't go through life with their head stuck up their rear. I find it amazing that someone with your intimate relationship with leather for all these years wouldn't have even a rough idea how thick a cow hide is.

Hu

 

[bhale]

Not to drag the topic away from the grading sysytem, but.....

I recently purchased a cue case (that i'm returning ) and the leather was smooth, shiney and had almost no smell or texture to it. Looked like lleather you would use to make high dollar shoes. It was so smooth that from a couple feet away it looked just like high quality vinyl. Although it's not the reason for the return, i was really looking forward to that leather smell. Is there a specific type/grade that i should be looking for? After doing some more reasearch, Oil tanned leather has the appearance i like and i believe that small scratches and scuffs can be rubbed out. It this true?

Where's that Smell????

Brian

 

[JB Cases]

John,

I specifically said I know little about leather. However I was born on a farm, many in my family are farmers today, and I have owned cattle and horses. I've been involved in the building of a few custom saddles too, from the users standpoint. A good saddlemaker can fit the individual horse and rider perfectly but it takes a lot of two way communication and some visits to the saddlemaker's shop. As a horseman I have known a handful of saddle makers over the years and visited almost every saddle shop I have ran across. A custom saddle shop is as fascinating to me as a jewelry store is to a lady! I spent a good bit of time in a local shop watching a maker and his assistant work. Same with a knifemaker and a few other craftsmen. I admire top quality craftsmanship regardless of what the product is and can watch any top craftsman for hours on end. Most welcome the company and I often increased my welcome bringing a little beer in the late afternoon and evening hours.

I am far from an expert on everything but I haven't walked through the world all these years blindfolded and with cotton stuffed in my ears either. We haven't scratched the surface of the things I have at least some knowledge of. I tend to do things for myself rather than having them done for the most part so there is no telling what I may have some knowledge of, many things I have fairly deep knowledge of. I consider that perfectly normal for anyone that doesn't go through life with their head stuck up their rear. I find it amazing that someone with your intimate relationship with leather for all these years wouldn't have even a rough idea how thick a cow hide is.

Hu

I had a rough idea. I didn't invent it out of thin air. Since I don't skin cows I don't know from first hand experience how thick a cowhide is.

As to what you have knowledge of I am sure that you have done everything that a human can possibly do. If we had a discussion about the best way to get coconuts down from a tree I am sure you'd tell us all about your experience in that regard.

I know how thick FINISHED cowhide normally is. My statement about it being about an inch thick right off the cow was gleaned from reading about how leather is tanned. I am not a tanner so what I know is from reading about it rather than tanning the leather. I'd bet that 99.99% of the cue case makers living or dead have never tanned the leather they use so don't hold me to some standard that no other case makers adhere to.

I have visited dozens of cue maker's shops as well. I suppose that qualifies me to talk about wood.......

 

[ronscuba]

..... the leather was smooth, shiney and had almost no smell or texture to it. Looked like leather you would use to make high dollar shoes. It was so smooth that from a couple feet away it looked just like high quality vinyl. ......

Exactly my experiences with some cases at SBE. Not sure why anyone would want their leather case to look like it was vinyl, but I guess everyone has their own likes and dislikes.

 

[JB Cases]

Not to drag the topic away from the grading sysytem, but.....

I recently purchased a cue case (that i'm returning ) and the leather was smooth, shiney and had almost no smell or texture to it. Looked like lleather you would use to make high dollar shoes. It was so smooth that from a couple feet away it looked just like high quality vinyl. Although it's not the reason for the return, i was really looking forward to that leather smell. Is there a specific type/grade that i should be looking for? After doing some more reasearch, Oil tanned leather has the appearance i like and i believe that small scratches and scuffs can be rubbed out. It this true?

Where's that Smell????

Brian

The leather smell comes from leather that has not been surface treated vigorously. Any time leather has the surface finished then the natural smell that comes from the tanning process is being blocked by the smell of the chemicals used to treat it. Often urethane is used as a finish and some leathers even have a plastic coating applied at the factory.

The heavier the coating the less the smell you associate with leather.

You get the best smell with veg tan leathers and full grain nappas in my experience.

FWIW being shiny doesn't mean that vinyl is high quality nor does being matte mean that leather is high quality. As Jive mentioned earlier the variety of surface finishes is endless and vinyl maker specialize in duplicating every type of finish you can imagine. I have even seen vinyl that has the leather smell.

In cars the seats are almost never fully leather. Read the fine print and it will say something like "seating area genuine leather". What this means is that the rest of the seat is vinyl and only the part where your ass goes is leather. But you wouldn't ever be able to tell the difference by feel or touch. Nor by smell most likely as they probably make sure that the smell of the leather and the vinyl is the same. Big business spends a lot of money to figure out how to address all your senses.

So, for that leather smell, full grain nappa with a matte finish or veg tan tooling leather with a light sealer are your best bets.

For example: http://www.chemicalguys.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=leather+smell&Search.x=0&Search.y=0

http://www.lttsolutions.co.uk/index.php/furniture/leather-essence.html

 

[bhale]

IMHO, a leather case should look like real leather, scratches from the barbed wire fence, etc and should be fairly thick with a slightly corse feel to it.

...And Oh That Smell

 

[bhale]

Thanks JB!

Looks like need to spend some more time on your website as i was on the verge of ordering a case based on your Gene Huie design http://jbcases.com/gene-huie.html But i believe that's oil tanned. Sounds like i need to look at Veg tanned some more to see how i like it.

Thanks!
Brian

 

[ShootingArts]

well I would hope

I had a rough idea. I didn't invent it out of thin air. Since I don't skin cows I don't know from first hand experience how thick a cowhide is.

As to what you have knowledge of I am sure that you have done everything that a human can possibly do. If we had a discussion about the best way to get coconuts down from a tree I am sure you'd tell us all about your experience in that regard.

I know how thick FINISHED cowhide normally is. My statement about it being about an inch thick right off the cow was gleaned from reading about how leather is tanned. I am not a tanner so what I know is from reading about it rather than tanning the leather. I'd bet that 99.99% of the cue case makers living or dead have never tanned the leather they use so don't hold me to some standard that no other case makers adhere to.

I have visited dozens of cue maker's shops as well. I suppose that qualifies me to talk about wood.......

John,

I would hope that after visiting "dozens" of cue maker's shops you would know that they prefer to be called builders and that most work from one inch square or round blanks about thirty inches long to make shafts and usually start with 1.5"x1.5" or 2x2 inch turning squares for butt wood unless they buy spliced blanks and partially turned components.

I would expect you to know a good bit more about cue making too, but I suspect I'd be surprised by your ignorance. Some people do go through life with figurative blindfolds on and figurative cotton wool in their ears! Then they want to get upset because other people don't. I only appear to be a know it all to those that know little. Plus I keep my mouth shut about things I know little about. Trained monkeys and young boys have both been used to get coconuts out of trees in the past, I don't know about current methods or best methods! :thumbup:

Hu

 

[matcase]

There is alot of information here. I am getting nervous.

 

[JB Cases]

Thanks JB!

Looks like need to spend some more time on your website as i was on the verge of ordering a case based on your Gene Huie design http://jbcases.com/gene-huie.html But i believe that's oil tanned. Sounds like i need to look at Veg tanned some more to see how i like it.

Thanks!
Brian

That case has veg tan and oil tan and it's got all the leather smell you could ever want.

 

[Chopdoc]

There is alot of information here. I am getting nervous.

LOL!


Yeah. It's a much more complicated topic than many would suspect. A lot to learn and I really think it's one of those areas where one is always learning no matter how long one has been at it.

I posted a little of what I have come to understand and then just sat back to see what else I could learn. I have been a huge leather nut since I was very young, but I really didn't know a lot except that I knew when I liked a leather and when I didn't. I've been reading a lot, working leather a lot in my free time, and collecting many samples that people have been kind enough to send to me.

You guys that have been working leather for years are really the voice of experience. I think that the simplest way that information can be laid out for people would be the most productive. People really just want some basic knowledge so they will understand what they are looking at and what they might want to buy.

As far as the question about grading, the short answer for the OP is that there is no simple single answer for leather grading.

Thanks so much to the great case makers for taking the time to contribute so much in this thread. It's great info and great perspectives on it.


.

 

[JB Cases]

John,

I would hope that after visiting "dozens" of cue maker's shops you would know that they prefer to be called builders and that most work from one inch square or round blanks about thirty inches long to make shafts and usually start with 1.5"x1.5" or 2x2 inch turning squares for butt wood unless they buy spliced blanks and partially turned components.

I would expect you to know a good bit more about cue making too, but I suspect I'd be surprised by your ignorance. Some people do go through life with figurative blindfolds on and figurative cotton wool in their ears! Then they want to get upset because other people don't. I only appear to be a know it all to those that know little. Plus I keep my mouth shut about things I know little about. Trained monkeys and young boys have both been used to get coconuts out of trees in the past, I don't know about current methods or best methods! :thumbup:

Hu

Well you should get Mike to change the title of the forum section to ask the cue builder instead of ask the cue maker.

Yes Hu, I know little. That's why you appear to be a know it all to me. Just like a few weeks ago when you decided to tell a patent attorney that he is wrong and you are right. No matter what the subject is YOU have done it or know more about it.

I suppose he doesn't know as much as you either. No biggie, until Baby Huey cases show up on the market I don't have anything to worry about.

I have been blindly spending tons of money on leather without the slightest clue about what I am buying for 20 years. Somehow I managed to get through and put out some great stuff......just lucky I guess.

 

[JB Cases]

There is alot of information here. I am getting nervous.

Show off!!!

 

[quadrary]

Thanks JB!

Looks like need to spend some more time on your website as i was on the verge of ordering a case based on your Gene Huie design http://jbcases.com/gene-huie.html But i believe that's oil tanned. Sounds like i need to look at Veg tanned some more to see how i like it.

Thanks!
Brian

Just to throw a monkey wrench in your plan to look at veg tan and then decide no case you see will be veg tan as it comes from the tannery so just tell John the color and shade, thickness, texture and whether you want it tooled or not and how you want the surface to look as in natural or soft sheen or gloss and i am sure John can nail it for you. Also be aware that each type of surface treatment has its advantafes and disadvantages so take advice from John on what he thinks is best. Just some advice from another case builder.

 

[ShootingArts]

well since you mention it

Well you should get Mike to change the title of the forum section to ask the cue builder instead of ask the cue maker.

Yes Hu, I know little. That's why you appear to be a know it all to me. Just like a few weeks ago when you decided to tell a patent attorney that he is wrong and you are right. No matter what the subject is YOU have done it or know more about it.

I suppose he doesn't know as much as you either. No biggie, until Baby Huey cases show up on the market I don't have anything to worry about.

I have been blindly spending tons of money on leather without the slightest clue about what I am buying for 20 years. Somehow I managed to get through and put out some great stuff......just lucky I guess.

John,

As usual you never know when to stop when you are behind. Your success is due to other people's work at cheap prices and almost certainly cheap suppliers. The proof of the pudding will be how long your cases stand the test of time and how long the new cases you produce do. People that cut corners don't usually know when to stop. Some of the chemicals used to cheaply tan leather in places like china besides being hell on the worker's health also continue to deteriate the leather over time. I've seen strong looking leather tear like cardboard after it had a little age on it for just this reason.

I know that an automotive component factory in china that supplied Ford and other US makers was paying their workers a little over ninety cents an hour for a very long work week and one of your posts implied that you didn't even pay your people by the hour favoring the old sweatshop method of paying for piecework. You claim shipping is so ridiculously high that the cost of shipping makes your cases just as expensive to produce and deliver as a case built in the US. We both know that is purest BS don't we John? The secret to your success is unquestionably cheap labor and very likely cheap materials. Reverse engineering every case you could get your hands on instead of thinking and designing for yourself played a big factor too.

How long do you want to keep on about what I know and don't know? I simply pointed out that cow hide was nowhere near an inch thick and would have been content to stop there. I can keep up my end of this far longer than you can because you are indeed a person of little knowledge or understanding.

Hu

 

[whitewolf]

I saw a sharkskin case once and man did I ever want one.

I hear that sharkskin boots are a lot tougher than rawhide boots.

If anybody wants to comment, please do as I do not know too much about the subject.

 

[Chopdoc]

I saw a sharkskin case once and man did I ever want one.

I hear that sharkskin boots are a lot tougher than rawhide boots.

If anybody wants to comment, please do as I do not know too much about the subject.

I don't think you will find rawhide boots. Rawhide isn't really considered leather. It is not tanned. It's the stuff dog chews are made of.

I don't know anything about sharkskin.

 

[Jive]

I don't really care much for the argument for the thickness of hide and all that. I just know what kind of leather i buy and what is good. And trust me, Automobile's use cheap leather unless you opt for their "customised" series or you go for after market fittings like TechArt for Porche which i know uses De Sede to upholster their seats with Italian leather but hide probably from Brazil or Argentina.

At the end of the day if you like how a case looks, buy it. I can say for sure that for a regular 3x4 Cue Case using regular leather and the BEST Italian Sofa Top Grain leather(maybe from Mastroto Italia) wouldn't have more than $20 price difference in terms of direct material cost, and i'm being generous here. If buying in volume i would dare say $3-10.

Going back to one ignorant poster about labor cost and pay system in China... Have you visited China? Otherwise stop channel surfing and assume you're Mr. Google and know it all.
A bottle of mineral water cost $0.15, the cheapest bottle of 750ml beer cost $0.20 with 3% Alchohol content.
Because standard of living is lower compared to wherever you're sitting, thus the salary...it's basic economics!
Factories are NOT located in the city where they sell Evian water for $2-5 so workers do not need to pay for that kind of luxury.
Most importantly if Foreign buyers are willing to PAY Chinese suppliers more the salary would definitely go up, but they'd also stop buying from China. Heard of Demand and Supply?

As for the pay system, i'd hope you don't speak of what you don't know. Every district has a minimum wage requirement that which cannot be succumbed to other deduction, so these suppose piece rate system builds on these minimum wages in other to motivate workers. It's the same as a Sales staff getting sales commission, you sell more you earn more, does that sound cruel to you? If not why would you think otherwise of a factory doing the same? Just because they don't wear a suit while working? What happen to the Retail Business that builds on commission? Insurance? Car Sales? Bank Loan Officers even...
Ever heard of Staff Appraisal? It affects your pay/bonus as well doesn't it? Well guess well it's just a sugar coated name to pay you for how hard you work and how well you work. Donkey and Carrots logic, it's proven to work.

China has cheap materials NOT because they are crappy, they are lousy only when the buyer/manufacturer chose to buy lousy. Remember, things are Suppose to be cheaper here than compared to the states. With the Same Time, Same Effort, Same Quality, Building the exact same item with the same technique, i can assure you China will be cheaper. Why? You'd need to figure it out yourself.

I use this example time and time again, iPhone and iPads are made in China. They are probably the BEST quality made electronic products of it's time in it's category. And yes, they are made 100% in China, Shenzhen.

 

[Jive]

I saw a sharkskin case once and man did I ever want one.

I hear that sharkskin boots are a lot tougher than rawhide boots.

If anybody wants to comment, please do as I do not know too much about the subject.

They look cool and has a very rubbery feel, however they wear really fast. As in the top grains/pattern wears not that the leather tears or anything. A friend of mine installed Sharkskin wrap on his cue and it's only been 6months and the surface is wearing. To be fair though he does play everyday 2-3hrs and has sweaty palm.

 

[Rusty Melton]

I don't really care much for the argument for the thickness of hide and all that. I just know what kind of leather i buy and what is good. And trust me, Automobile's use cheap leather unless you opt for their "customised" series or you go for after market fittings like TechArt for Porche which i know uses De Sede to upholster their seats with Italian leather but hide probably from Brazil or Argentina.

At the end of the day if you like how a case looks, buy it. I can say for sure that for a regular 3x4 Cue Case using regular leather and the BEST Italian Sofa Top Grain leather(maybe from Mastroto Italia) wouldn't have more than $20 price difference in terms of direct material cost, and i'm being generous here. If buying in volume i would dare say $3-10.

Going back to one ignorant poster about labor cost and pay system in China... Have you visited China? Otherwise stop channel surfing and assume you're Mr. Google and know it all.
A bottle of mineral water cost $0.15, the cheapest bottle of 750ml beer cost $0.20 with 3% Alchohol content.
Because standard of living is lower compared to wherever you're sitting, thus the salary...it's basic economics!
Factories are NOT located in the city where they sell Evian water for $2-5 so workers do not need to pay for that kind of luxury.
Most importantly if Foreign buyers are willing to PAY Chinese suppliers more the salary would definitely go up, but they'd also stop buying from China. Heard of Demand and Supply?

As for the pay system, i'd hope you don't speak of what you don't know. Every district has a minimum wage requirement that which cannot be succumbed to other deduction, so these suppose piece rate system builds on these minimum wages in other to motivate workers. It's the same as a Sales staff getting sales commission, you sell more you earn more, does that sound cruel to you? If not why would you think otherwise of a factory doing the same? Just because they don't wear a suit while working? What happen to the Retail Business that builds on commission? Insurance? Car Sales? Bank Loan Officers even...
Ever heard of Staff Appraisal? It affects your pay/bonus as well doesn't it? Well guess well it's just a sugar coated name to pay you for how hard you work and how well you work. Donkey and Carrots logic, it's proven to work.

China has cheap materials NOT because they are crappy, they are lousy only when the buyer/manufacturer chose to buy lousy. Remember, things are Suppose to be cheaper here than compared to the states. With the Same Time, Same Effort, Same Quality, Building the exact same item with the same technique, i can assure you China will be cheaper. Why? You'd need to figure it out yourself.

I use this example time and time again, iPhone and iPads are made in China. They are probably the BEST quality made electronic products of it's time in it's category. And yes, they are made 100% in China, Shenzhen.

You're right about the cost of the difference being very small. Even if you payed the difference quoted on Herman Oaks website for the different prices of the veg tan tooling leather, it's only 27 cents difference per square foot from the 2-3 oz. to the 11 ounce. That figures up to around 6.75 per side figured at a average of 25 square feet per side. If you get 3 cases out of a side you're looking at 2.25 difference for the thick 11 oz. compared to the 2-3 oz. I'm sure I'll be corrected if my figures are off, but I'm sure that the difference in the cost is small.