APA rank & innings

[brophog]

I see more accidental safes than I do slopped balls.

That's something I always bring up too whenever someone complains about 'slop'. If 'slop' really meant that much to them, then they should consider it on any shot, not just ones that go in.

Honestly, if someone wants to practice getting out of safeties, play a banger for a bit. Them not playing position on a shot means they slop into all kinds of safeties.

 

[poolcuemaster]

I have played in the apa for a long time and the team captains that have there players lose in order to stay at a lower skill level are my favorite teams to play in the playoffs. They have been taught how to lose not how to win and they crumble under a little hard play from a good player, I will never pay my $7 to try to lose but I will allways play the best player on the other team if they won't throw off on me.--Leonard

 

[LoVe4DaGaMe]

LoVe4DaGaMe...The APA 8 ball rules are specifically for that league. 8 ball has always been a call pocket game, and still is anywhere except APA. The APA is meant to be a social league, and so those rules work well for that league. Just don't think that all 8 ball is played that way...it isn't!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Oh, I think I might have misled you, I do play 8 Ball, I play 8 Ball BCA, I don't play the A.P.A. way, I was trying to say that after hearing how it is played in the APA, that I don't want to join the APA leagues.

I absolutely love 8 ball, it is my game of choice.

 

[LoVe4DaGaMe]

The question is why are you posting in a thread about APA if you never played it and don't plan on playing.

Uh... Did I offend you by offering my opinion on the situation? Someone posted in the thread about people not playing APA and bashing it.. I was just saying that I don't play it.. and I don't bash it either, but since I don't like it.. I just avoid using that league..

I am sorry if I offended you, but I don't know how I did.. and will continue to post in my normal manner, thanks for your understanding.

 

[LoVe4DaGaMe]

1st i want to say i love playing pool and have no problem playing in any league. i have played bcapl and still would if it was in my area, it is no longer available here due to being poorly run from what i heard.

it gets me when people say apa is not for serious players. i take pool serious and know many apa players that also do. i am currently playing in apa and napa both, which i am sure most of you know napa is call your shot.

lets compare apa and bcapl rules and note which rules are geared for more serious players or more skilled players.

1. slop. helps lesser skilled players in apa. ADVANTAGE BCAPL

2. closed break in apa vs open break in bcapl. sometimes in a closed break you will have to resort to banking or kicking to get on your next ball. open break you can pick whatever is easiest. ADVANTAGE APA

3. scratch on the break. in apa you are limited to ball in hand in the kitchen which limits your options. bcapl you can place the cueball anywhere which gives lesser skilled players more options. ADVANTAGE APA.

4.playing format. in apa you match up against your opponent in a race determined by both handicaps. it is just you against your opponent to determine who wins the set, just like any 2 players who match up in any pool hall. in bcapl you play everyone on the other team once and are awarded points for balls not on the table that goes towards your teams total. you do not have to win the match to help your team win. ADVANTAGE APA.

i could go on but i think those are enough to prove my point. in bcapl you are awarded points for balls flying off the table,awarded points for whatever balls your opponent makes on the break if he elects to shoot the other set, awarded points for hitting your opponents ball 1st and then making yours. you call that serious pool for serious players ? what a joke

I have to disagree with you on this one.. The first problem I see is.. I feel like what you see as a negative and advantage, can be turned around into a disadvantage... for example..

#3. You say that scratching on the break and giving ball in hand is a good thing for lesser skilled people.. I say, it is a bad thing.. because for the most part, the lesser skilled people will be the ones scratching on the break.. and giving up ball in hand. When you give up ball in hand to a better player, their chances of running out increase 10 fold. I do not forsee a lesser skilled player doing much other than running a few with ball in hand on the break.. once again opening up the table for the better player.

My second problem is the fact that you have no weight attached to the rules.. for example, you are acting as if letting anyone hit the ball into any pocket and keep shooting is equal to giving ball in hand on the break, or even equal to shooting what you make on the break. For me, I don't think that is even close. If someone makes a ball on the beak, they should have earned the right, by breaking and making a ball to shoot at what they want.

If slop counts on APA, then why wouldn't it be open then? If the table is open, when I get to the table, and I try to make the solids, but slop in the stripes.. I get stripes.. (right? I think that is how someone told me it works.. so I keep shooting.. Do you think this is fair? Unintentionally pocketing a ball, and keep on shooting?) I just feel like allowing players to make balls in random pockets decreases the focus put on learning patterns.. and also dulls down the "Chess" like features of 8 Ball.

As for what others have said.. Yes, anyone can still play ball pocket, and I would absolutely play ball pocket, I would feel like I was cheating if I got to keep shooting after making a ball in a pocket I didn't intend, or slopping in a ball I didn't intend to make.

As for the people saying that hitting an opponents ball and scoring a point is a cheap scenario, that only can occur in the BCAPL Nights, not in their tournaments. In their tournaments, it is a race to "x" and ball count is not recorded (atleast around here)

 

[lorider]

I have to disagree with you on this one.. The first problem I see is.. I feel like what you see as a negative and advantage, can be turned around into a disadvantage... for example..

#3. You say that scratching on the break and giving ball in hand is a good thing for lesser skilled people.. I say, it is a bad thing.. because for the most part, the lesser skilled people will be the ones scratching on the break.. and giving up ball in hand. When you give up ball in hand to a better player, their chances of running out increase 10 fold. I do not forsee a lesser skilled player doing much other than running a few with ball in hand on the break.. once again opening up the table for the better player.

My second problem is the fact that you have no weight attached to the rules.. for example, you are acting as if letting anyone hit the ball into any pocket and keep shooting is equal to giving ball in hand on the break, or even equal to shooting what you make on the break. For me, I don't think that is even close. If someone makes a ball on the beak, they should have earned the right, by breaking and making a ball to shoot at what they want.

If slop counts on APA, then why wouldn't it be open then? If the table is open, when I get to the table, and I try to make the solids, but slop in the stripes.. I get stripes.. (right? I think that is how someone told me it works.. so I keep shooting.. Do you think this is fair? Unintentionally pocketing a ball, and keep on shooting?) I just feel like allowing players to make balls in random pockets decreases the focus put on learning patterns.. and also dulls down the "Chess" like features of 8 Ball.

As for what others have said.. Yes, anyone can still play ball pocket, and I would absolutely play ball pocket, I would feel like I was cheating if I got to keep shooting after making a ball in a pocket I didn't intend, or slopping in a ball I didn't intend to make.

As for the people saying that hitting an opponents ball and scoring a point is a cheap scenario, that only can occur in the BCAPL Nights, not in their tournaments. In their tournaments, it is a race to "x" and ball count is not recorded (atleast around here)

this is a perfect case for the " is the glass half empty or half full" anology.

i see your point where it would also make it easier for a higher level player to run out.

although i defend apa i dont like slop. being a bar banger for 30 years i am used to calling everything :thumbup:. when i 1st joined apa it upset me when someone slopped 1 in an continued shooting. being low ranked at that time i usually played more low ranked players and saw more slop than i do when i play higher ranked players.

using the glass half full or half empty anology i now see slop in a different way. now i compare having my opponent continue shooting after a slop shot as to spotting him a few balls. the same as an a player spotting a c player the 7 out. when he misses i am going to outrun the nuts

i honestly think the bcapl points scoring format inflates your handicap. maybe not radically but at least to a degree. as i stated earlier i used to play bcapl. i was a 6.9 after the2nd session. i then quit pool for a few years, and started playin apa 18 months ago. i have not gotten higher than a 5 yet.

i attribute it to the different scoring format and bcapl rules that make it easier for a skilled player to run out.

 

[justadub]

I slopped a ball in during my match last night. I was so embarrassed, and all both me and my opponent could do was laugh. There was no cause for upset. It doesn't happen in our matches here very often, not with players SL5 and up. Nor even with SL4's, really.

It was the first time I'd slopped one in in quite some time.

It's a non-issue. Something to keep a race to 2 from going any longer than it already does, for beginners.

Something for people to use as an excuse to dislike the APA.

 

[RobMan]

..... Two people went up in skill level and now I'm a permanent resident on the bench.

my 9 ball team
9-5-4-4-4-4-3

That said, the 23 rule is not as bad in APA 8 ball, but only because the scale doesn't go as high.

This is true and I really do not understand it. The highest rank in 8-ball is seven; thus posting to 23 is much easier. So where you are benched in nine; you can easily post in 8 providing players are ranked the same.

Although, it is my experience playing double jeopardy that "some" players are ranked one SL Higher in 8 than 9. Not all, and occasionally the other way around.

 

[Maniac]

The 23 rule is the only rule in APA that bothers me. It forces me to play less than I want to and now I can't play at all. I've been on this team for two seasons and I may have to leave the team if we don't find a "solid" SL 1-3 for next session. Two people went up in skill level and now I'm a permanent resident on the bench.

my 9 ball team
9-5-4-4-4-4-3

That said, the 23 rule is not as bad in APA 8 ball, but only because the scale doesn't go as high.

I agree with you Jaday. It is not right that the 23-rule exists in APA 9-ball when the skill levels go up to SL9's. Except for you, your team isn't top-heavy at all and still you cannot play without the team exceeding the limit. That sucks!!!

APA 9-ball needs to have a 25-rule. Nobody really wants/has room for a SL9 on their team.

I remember a couple sessions ago in my APA 9-ball league my team had a woman that was an honest-to-goodness SL1 (couldn't make three balls in a row on a GOOD day and frequently missed BIH shots). I put her up first one night because it was her time to play and guess what the opposing team countered with? Yep, a SL8. How many innings do you think THAT SL8 had that night? Yep, buttloads. Our theory was (and more than likely correct) that they put him up against our SL1 to run up his innings. Of course I countered that strategy somewhat by marking a bunch of defensive shots when it was obvious he was missing on purpose. He had this way of missing shots but not leaving our SL1 with a makeable shot (which would have practically needed to be straight-in :embarrassed2. It was fairly easy to tell when he was intentionally dogging shots because when he'd miss say the 4-ball, he wouldn't have shape on the 5-ball anyways.

It's sad when a team/player has to resort to this kind of crap just so a higher ranked players' skill level stays the same (or drops). This is one of a few examples of why the APA 9-ball SL limits need to be at 25.

Maniac

 

[RobMan]

..... I remember a couple sessions ago in my APA 9-ball league my team had a woman that was an honest-to-goodness SL1 (couldn't make three balls in a row on a GOOD day and frequently missed BIH shots). I put her up first one night because it was her time to play and guess what the opposing team countered with? Yep, a SL8. How many innings do you think THAT SL8 had that night? Yep, buttloads. Our theory was (and more than likely correct) that they put him up against our SL1 to run up his innings......

Maniac

See this is the problem .... teams that post like this. Personally, I think it is absolute bull$$hit. I understand that the goal is to win, except for me and our team, and most all the teams at our home club, we play to be competitive AND have a good time. We ALWAYS post within a skill level at the lower rankings. It is absolutely NO FUN for a SL1 to play an 8. And Frankly, me as an 8 absolutely do not want to play a low SL. Jeez .... If I want to win that bad, I'll just go to the Chuckie Cheese and beat the B'day kids at pool!

I hope that 8 enjoyed his massacre. Crap it is I say.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

Uh... Did I offend you by offering my opinion on the situation? Someone posted in the thread about people not playing APA and bashing it.. I was just saying that I don't play it.. and I don't bash it either, but since I don't like it.. I just avoid using that league..

I am sorry if I offended you, but I don't know how I did.. and will continue to post in my normal manner, thanks for your understanding.

No I am not offended. Just curious why somebody with no interest of APA and had never played APA comes and posts in this thread.

 

[nine_ball6970]

I slopped a ball in during my match last night. I was so embarrassed, and all both me and my opponent could do was laugh. There was no cause for upset. It doesn't happen in our matches here very often, not with players SL5 and up. Nor even with SL4's, really.

It was the first time I'd slopped one in in quite some time.

It's a non-issue. Something to keep a race to 2 from going any longer than it already does, for beginners.

Something for people to use as an excuse to dislike the APA.

^^^ Slop definitely is a non-issue with higher ranked players. I think it is funny that most people on this forum think they are simply too good to play in a league where slop counts. If those same people watched some matches between higher level players they would see in most matches every ball pocketed was in the intended pocket. I cannot remember a single match of 8 ball where I won or lost as a direct result of a slop shot over 600 matches played. I mean it is an amateur league. DO you really care if any player gets a lucky roll once in awhile? If you are a 5+ then you should be able to beat someone who counts on slop to stay at the table very easily. The point of a league is to get people to enjoy pool in a social environment. All the BCA lovers think players in APA cant play but from what I have seen there is the same mix in BCA. Very good players and bad players play in both leagues.

 

[quadrary]

As far as individual skill level goes, I agree with you. Regarding the team handicap (the 23 rule) it is punishment. It forces teams to forfeit matches in many instances. It practically forces teams to sandbag to keep their team intact.

and that is the idea as you play longer you get better or at least some do and your skill level goes up. Then as others go up the team has to split up and bring in new players to have the low sl players to fill a roster. Works well for the league as it keeps bringing in new players thereby growing the league. This brings new people to yourleague night and the opportunity to meet new friends. I play apa and tap and enjoy both as well as non affiliated tournaments both handicapped and open because i love to play.
If you take league pool for what it is its great. Ive had a lot of fun and met some new people i like. But that is not the only aspect of pool i like it has its place as all facets of the game do. For me my first interest isnt as a team sport its the single aspect as one player against the field that i enjoy the most so i play a lot of touraments but get my several nights a week pool fix via leagues. Just enjoy it for what it is as a casual night out with friends doing what you really like and you can still enjoy what ever your choice of serious pool is and maybe help some other people along the way when you cross paths. Just my opinion but it serves me well.
Monty

 

[11am]

I believe in APA Bar Box 8 ball, on a 6 ft table, there is a much higher probability to slop a ball in accidentally regardless of skill level, as the playing area is significantly smaller. it's the same rule for every player, luck does occasionally factor in. Most of us apologize to our opponent, or acknowledge luck by the standard " Great Shot!" response. But as it's been mentioned before, it's really a social league, with a relatively good level of skilled players regionally, surprisingly, ( or not) so you take the good with the bad. One of the luckiest slam bam player's I have known, constantly complained about slop shots and the APA, but won most of his matches on just that. Luck. Go figure. I would think that truly gifted local players should join in more open sanctioned competitions, to satisfy their competitive appetites. Theres usually one or two a month locally, with a 20 dollar buy in

 

[whammo57]

More condescending tone being put out through your keyboard. My wife is a 3. I guess she ought to just give up on pool, eh???

You may or may not realize it, but with the short sentence in parantheses in the above quoted part of your post, you just insulted every person of skill level 4 and under.

Read what you type and THINK before hitting the "Submit Reply" button.

Maniac

You missed my whole point.... I am not saying that 3's and 4's should just give up. Those SL's are necessary to field a team. A team consisting of 3's and 4's can win very easily if every one shoots their skill level.

I was just commenting on the fact that I see sand baggers and cheaters that try to beat the system in order to stay a 3 or a 4 instead of steadily improving and going up.

We have one guy in the league that does a cut break. He hits the head ball off center and it results in a lousy break. No one can run out and he keeps his innings up and is SL a 5. He should be an easy 6. Cheater....

Play the best you can.... what happens, happens....

Good score keeping helps the SL accuracy. Don't pad innings. We have one team that always adds a few innings to each game. Cheaters

We have people that fail to mark defensive shots. Cheaters

The cheaters are the ones that are constantly complaining about the handicap system because they spend their effort on trying to beat it.

All I am saying is............ quit complaining about it ...... It doesn't look good on you......

Kim

 

[stumpie71]

You missed my whole point.... I am not saying that 3's and 4's should just give up. Those SL's are necessary to field a team. A team consisting of 3's and 4's can win very easily if every one shoots their skill level.

I was just commenting on the fact that I see sand baggers and cheaters that try to beat the system in order to stay a 3 or a 4 instead of steadily improving and going up.

We have one guy in the league that does a cut break. He hits the head ball off center and it results in a lousy break. No one can run out and he keeps his innings up and is SL a 5. He should be an easy 6. Cheater....

Play the best you can.... what happens, happens....

Good score keeping helps the SL accuracy. Don't pad innings. We have one team that always adds a few innings to each game. Cheaters

We have people that fail to mark defensive shots. Cheaters

The cheaters are the ones that are constantly complaining about the handicap system because they spend their effort on trying to beat it.

All I am saying is............ quit complaining about it ...... It doesn't look good on you......

Kim

You are 100% correct. The biggest b****ers are usually the ones trying the hardest to beat the system. And the usual reason is it's not their fault it's the system, someone else is doing it, it's raining outside or any other excuse that's convenient. The bottom line you are either a cheater or not, period.

 

[Aten]

1st i want to say i love playing pool and have no problem playing in any league. i have played bcapl and still would if it was in my area, it is no longer available here due to being poorly run from what i heard.

it gets me when people say apa is not for serious players. i take pool serious and know many apa players that also do. i am currently playing in apa and napa both, which i am sure most of you know napa is call your shot.

lets compare apa and bcapl rules and note which rules are geared for more serious players or more skilled players.

1. slop. helps lesser skilled players in apa. ADVANTAGE BCAPL

2. closed break in apa vs open break in bcapl. sometimes in a closed break you will have to resort to banking or kicking to get on your next ball. open break you can pick whatever is easiest. ADVANTAGE APA

3. scratch on the break. in apa you are limited to ball in hand in the kitchen which limits your options. bcapl you can place the cueball anywhere which gives lesser skilled players more options. ADVANTAGE APA.

4.playing format. in apa you match up against your opponent in a race determined by both handicaps. it is just you against your opponent to determine who wins the set, just like any 2 players who match up in any pool hall. in bcapl you play everyone on the other team once and are awarded points for balls not on the table that goes towards your teams total. you do not have to win the match to help your team win. ADVANTAGE APA.

i could go on but i think those are enough to prove my point. in bcapl you are awarded points for balls flying off the table,awarded points for whatever balls your opponent makes on the break if he elects to shoot the other set, awarded points for hitting your opponents ball 1st and then making yours. you call that serious pool for serious players ? what a joke

I agree with you completely. There are pros and cons to both systems, but that's how it is... it's impossible to come up with something that satisfies every single player in the world because somebody will always find something to complain about.

Another thing to add to #4: in BCAPL you only get one game with each person. It's basically just a crapshoot and anyone can get lucky for a win, whereas in the APA the format is much more balanced and diminishes the luck factor dramatically since you're racing.

 

[Maniac]

You are 100% correct. The biggest b****ers are usually the ones trying the hardest to beat the system. And the usual reason is it's not their fault it's the system, someone else is doing it, it's raining outside or any other excuse that's convenient. The bottom line you are either a cheater or not, period.

Not neccessarily true. I know a LOT of APA'ers that b*tch because they or somebody on their team are constantly being beaten by those that know how to "beat the system" and are just plain sick and tired of it. And I seriously mean a LOT. In the league area I once shot in (before moving to my current APA area) sandbagging was RAMPANT. The LO was/is not very well liked by many and has the "buddy system" working for all his cronies. I could write a book with all the stories I could tell from his league (I played in his league area for 6 years until I just couldn't fade the bullsh*t anymore) A bunch of others from my old area have also now moved over to my new area.

If you play in an APA league that has great LO's, you probably do not understand why some people on this forum p*ss and moan so much about it. I understand fully why they do so. You haven't heard much from me in the past year or so concerning the APA because I now play in APA leagues with great LO's.

Maniac

 

[8up]

23 rule sucks I agree. The reason it sucks for me is it slowing my learning curve. My team is qualified for cities in both 8 & 9 ball. Since we have qualified 2 of our 7 have went up in both 8 and 9. i went from a 4 to a 5. I have played some good games and won. I have also played terrible and won because others were trying to make sure they didn't win by to big a margin and I had a moment of clarity or got a roll. In 9 ball I have been down by a bunch and the guy is really playing and then realizes he can still beat me by dogging balls for a while sometimes his cheating helps him but hurts his team when I catch a gear and beat him.

Now why does it slow my learning curve? Because I don't practice for fear of going up before city's. I can not make myself intentionally play bad unless I am just going to play to lose. I refuse to pay to play and lose on purpose. I drive 35 miles 1 way to play and my wife plays as well. The night cost me $50 a week or $200 a month. If we get to go to vegas I will continue to play but if not I will quit for a session or 2 as I am getting burnt out. Maybe I will save that money and visit vegas on my own.

8-ball 7.5.5.4.2.2.2 23 is not a problem if we can play up to our handicap

9 ball 9, 5,5,4,2,2,2 one of the top 3 must sit out.

ours 2's are just as likely to shoot like a 1 as they are a 2 almost never like a 3.

after driving 70 miles for the night I expect for the wife and I to play

Rambling over

 

[Banks]

23 rule sucks I agree. The reason it sucks for me is it slowing my learning curve. My team is qualified for cities in both 8 & 9 ball. Since we have qualified 2 of our 7 have went up in both 8 and 9. i went from a 4 to a 5.

Now why does it slow my learning curve? Because I don't practice for fear of going up before city's. I can not make myself intentionally play bad unless I am just going to play to lose. I refuse to pay to play and lose on purpose. I drive 35 miles 1 way to play and my wife plays as well. The night cost me $50 a week or $200 a month. If we get to go to vegas I will continue to play but if not I will quit for a session or 2 as I am getting burnt out. Maybe I will save that money and visit vegas on my own.

8-ball 7.5.5.4.2.2.2 23 is not a problem if we can play up to our handicap

9 ball 9, 5,5,4,2,2,2 one of the top 3 must sit out.

ours 2's are just as likely to shoot like a 1 as they are a 2 almost never like a 3.

after driving 70 miles for the night I expect for the wife and I to play

Rambling over

Did your team recently qualify, or has it been a while? Chances are that if you have just gone up to a 5, you're not in immediate danger of bumping up again to a 6. You either drive 70 miles, throw away your $7/14(or up to $28 with the wife) and throw your games, or you practice and become a good 5. I'm thinking that you're more likely to be part of the second scenario. Being a 9 sucks for playability, but it gets you to also rely on your teammates. Be that good 5 and give the team some backbone. If you do, I doubt anybody will mind, especially you. And who knows, maybe one of those 2s will drop. There's still a ways to go, so don't let up on learning. :thumbup: