VNEA rule question

Diamond69

Diamond69

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was playing VNEA league last night and had an ERO. On my first shot after the break, the cue ball was close to the 6 ball (under quarter inch). Almost a full length table shot. So I stroked it pretty hard from a 45 degree elevated cue. Because of the force I hit it with, the cue ball traveled about a ball past where the object ball was before the draw kicked in and pulled back a few inches.

I didn't think it was a foul/push shot. So I continued on and ran out. My opponent said nice run, but just fyi, 1st shot was a push shot. He didn't make a big deal out of it, but started to explain that when the balls are that close, if the cue ball travels past where the OB was, that is illegal. Here are the double hit and push rules from VNEA. It doesn't specify anything about cue ball travel.

Again, wasn't a big deal, he didn't contest the results (he didn't ask for a ref) but I'm a clean player and feel a bit bad that he feels it was a foul and I don't think it was. What do you think? As it's not in the rules, he may have confused "illegal to go past the OB" with "going past the OB is part of the evidence a ref considers as part of a double hit".

6. FOULS BY DOUBLE HITS. It is a foul if the cue ball is struck more than once on a shot by the cue tip (such shots are usually referred to as double hits). If, in the referee’s judgment, the cue ball has left initial contact with the cue tip and then is struck a second time in the course of the same shot, it shall be a foul. (Note: this can be a difficult call in officiating because on shots where the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is very short, the referee must judge whether the cue ball had time to move out of contact with the cue tip prior to being impeded and then propelled again by the follow through of the stroke.) Nonetheless, if it is judged by virtue of sound, ball position and action and stroke used that there were two separate contacts of the cue ball by the cue tip on a stroke, the stroke is a foul and must be so called.

7. PUSH SHOT FOULS. It is a foul if the cue tip pushes the cue ball with contact being maintained for more than the momentary time commensurate with a stroked shot. (Such shots are usually referred to as push shots.) With a cue ball and object ball frozen, shooting the shot from any angle other than at least 45 degrees above, or at least 45 degrees to the right or at least 45 degrees to the left of center from the straight line of the frozen balls is a foul and must be so called.
 
Not sure if this helps or not, but as firm as I hit the ball, it definitely had some jump motion in it before the spin back.
 
From the way you described it...I would have to say it was probably a foul. What probably happened was when you hit it with a 45 degree angle it automatically will put low on it and it could have came back and hit your shaft during your follow through and pushed it up table a bit and then the low english took effect and it came backwards. The way I have always heard the rule is if there is any "significant" foward roll on the cueball after contact that close then it was a double hit/push shot. It is one of those gray area rules where its hard to determine it. I just set it up on my table and shot it 10 times different speeds and all about the distance you described and what I considered good shots at all speeds (good shots meaning in my opinion not push shots/ double hits) and on all of them the cueball never traveled that far foward as you described.
 
master_cueist said:
From the way you described it...I would have to say it was probably a foul. What probably happened was when you hit it with a 45 degree angle it automatically will put low on it and it could have came back and hit your shaft during your follow through and pushed it up table a bit and then the low english took effect and it came backwards. The way I have always heard the rule is if there is any "significant" foward roll on the cueball after contact that close then it was a double hit/push shot. It is one of those gray area rules where its hard to determine it. I just set it up on my table and shot it 10 times different speeds and all about the distance you described and what I considered good shots at all speeds (good shots meaning in my opinion not push shots/ double hits) and on all of them the cueball never traveled that far foward as you described.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback matercueist. I know these cases are for the most part a very gray area as I've seen where even ref's call incorrectly in others opinions (sometimes even the shooter who got the call in their favor). Like I said, if I had known I fouled, I would have fessed up and handed over the table. If he was "sure" I fouled, he may have disrupted at that time. But it's not a hugely competitive league, so no harm done either way. It may have been sympathy on his part at the time since it was the last game and they destroyed us anyway!
 
Hard to say without seeing...

It's a tough call by a ref. It may have been a legal hit, maybe not.

Either way, if your opponent doesn't call it right away, it's a moot point. Once you are allowed to shoot the next ball, it's history.
 
tucson9ball said:
It's a tough call by a ref. It may have been a legal hit, maybe not.

Either way, if your opponent doesn't call it right away, it's a moot point. Once you are allowed to shoot the next ball, it's history.
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Yah, that part I knew, as well did he. We are friends and he just pointed it out at the end. I was just trying to look for clarification as I hate to think I fouled and didn't recognize it. I'm not the type to foul and hope nobody noticed. I freely give up the table if I had a bad hit, etc.
 
Diamond69 said:
I was playing VNEA league last night and had an ERO. On my first shot after the break, the cue ball was close to the 6 ball (under quarter inch). Almost a full length table shot. So I stroked it pretty hard from a 45 degree elevated cue. Because of the force I hit it with, the cue ball traveled about a ball past where the object ball was before the draw kicked in and pulled back a few inches.

I didn't think it was a foul/push shot. So I continued on and ran out. My opponent said nice run, but just fyi, 1st shot was a push shot. He didn't make a big deal out of it, but started to explain that when the balls are that close, if the cue ball travels past where the OB was, that is illegal. Here are the double hit and push rules from VNEA. It doesn't specify anything about cue ball travel.

Again, wasn't a big deal, he didn't contest the results (he didn't ask for a ref) but I'm a clean player and feel a bit bad that he feels it was a foul and I don't think it was. What do you think? As it's not in the rules, he may have confused "illegal to go past the OB" with "going past the OB is part of the evidence a ref considers as part of a double hit".

6. FOULS BY DOUBLE HITS. It is a foul if the cue ball is struck more than once on a shot by the cue tip (such shots are usually referred to as double hits). If, in the referee’s judgment, the cue ball has left initial contact with the cue tip and then is struck a second time in the course of the same shot, it shall be a foul. (Note: this can be a difficult call in officiating because on shots where the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is very short, the referee must judge whether the cue ball had time to move out of contact with the cue tip prior to being impeded and then propelled again by the follow through of the stroke.) Nonetheless, if it is judged by virtue of sound, ball position and action and stroke used that there were two separate contacts of the cue ball by the cue tip on a stroke, the stroke is a foul and must be so called.

7. PUSH SHOT FOULS. It is a foul if the cue tip pushes the cue ball with contact being maintained for more than the momentary time commensurate with a stroked shot. (Such shots are usually referred to as push shots.) With a cue ball and object ball frozen, shooting the shot from any angle other than at least 45 degrees above, or at least 45 degrees to the right or at least 45 degrees to the left of center from the straight line of the frozen balls is a foul and must be so called.
Click to expand...
It is likely your shot was a foul, but it is also possible it was not. For examples of and explanations for both scenarios, see the videos here:

Regards,
Dave
 
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If the cue ball traveled one ball past where the OB was, it probably would have been considered a double hit if a ref was watching.
 
Diamond69:

I can't think of a scenario were the shot you described would not be a foul. However, like your opponent I wouldn't bother trying to call that foul on anyone. 9 guys out of 10 don't understand that situation. Only a knowledgeable ref can really call this. Check out Dr. Dave's info on this. Also, mess around with that shot a bit and you will see what your opponent was talking about. If the cue ball's spin doesn't take off until somewhere past where the object ball was, then I believe you hit the cue ball twice.


***Edit***
I took my own advice and reviewed Dr. Dave's videos and I now see why Dr. Dave said - "It is likely your shot was a foul, but it is also possible it was not."

Have to watch the videos.
 
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dr_dave said:
It is likely your shot was a foul, but it is also possible it was not. For examples of and explanations for both scenarios, see the videos here:

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

Great video Dr. Dave!!! Based on this, I believe my hit was legal under the next to last "elevated, larger gap, legal hit". Although my cb didn't jump that high, it definitely had the jump action. That being said, it probably could still go either way under the watchful eye of even a good ref. But at least I feel better about myself now. Thanks everyone for the feedback.
 
Diamond69 said:
dr_dave said:
It is likely your shot was a foul, but it is also possible it was not. For examples of and explanations for both scenarios, see the videos here:
Click to expand...
Great video Dr. Dave!!!
Click to expand...
Thanks!

Diamond69 said:
Based on this, I believe my hit was legal under the next to last "elevated, larger gap, legal hit". Although my cb didn't jump that high, it definitely had the jump action. That being said, it probably could still go either way under the watchful eye of even a good ref. But at least I feel better about myself now. Thanks everyone for the feedback.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, many players (and some refs) don't understand this stuff as well as they should. Some people (including some refs) will call the shot a foul if they see the CB go forward even a little. For shots that are too close to call (like it sounds like your shot might have been), the benefit of doubt should go to the shooter.

Regards,
Dave
 
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