Layered Tips & Single layered tips

[Barioni Cues]

Ok, we have been testing a Varity of tips to find a true hardness rating. I think the problem is how tips are categorized. The normal category is super soft, soft, medium, hard, and super hard. It is near impossible to make a brand of tip all have the same hardness. This is due to leather hides all having a different chemical make-up and different harnesses. Muellers has a durometer rating for tips. But when we tested the tips with a durometer we found out there is a huge range of reading for these tips.
Every one knows Elk Master is a soft tip. It is a good comparison. We tested 3 brand-new boxes, that’s 150 tips and got a durometer reading from 57 to 79. Wow what a difference. A 79 is considered hard. With such a sporadic group of readings how can anyone classify these as soft, medium, or hard?
Muellers prints in their catalog that an Elk Master is soft and has a reading of 60.1. But as you can see from are tests that not all the tips are 60.1. Not even close. We tested 300 Triangle tips and got a reading of 62-78. Muellers rating is 81.4. Here is a chart of the tips and readings that we got.
Elk Master: 57-79
Triumph:78
Triangle: 62-78
Moori Medium: 70-73.5
Talisman Soft: 66-74
Talisman Medium: 71-82
Talisman Hard: 77-79
Hercules Medium: 62-63
Black Diamond: 74
Superpro 74-83
Samsara Break Jump:83.5
White Diamond: 89.5
Barioni Double Buff Tall: 65
Barioni Double Buff: 73
Luxor Black:82.5
Luxor Brown:70
All readings are from testing 20 tips except Elk Master 150 and
Triangle 300.
Each and every Barioni tip is now tested with a durometer and either stamped or hand written with the durometer reading. We feel this is the only way to get a consistent hardness rating. It is the most accurate specification.

 

[Zerius]

Each and every Barioni tip is now tested with a durometer and either stamped or hand written with the durometer reading. We feel this is the only way to get a consistent hardness rating. It is the most accurate specification.

Glad to hear that you test every tip. Very scientific method, I approve! :thumbup:

 

[Roadie]

Ok, we have been testing a Varity of tips to find a true hardness rating. I think the problem is how tips are categorized. The normal category is super soft, soft, medium, hard, and super hard. It is near impossible to make a brand of tip all have the same hardness. This is due to leather hides all having a different chemical make-up and different harnesses. Muellers has a durometer rating for tips. But when we tested the tips with a durometer we found out there is a huge range of reading for these tips.
Every one knows Elk Master is a soft tip. It is a good comparison. We tested 3 brand-new boxes, that’s 150 tips and got a durometer reading from 57 to 79. Wow what a difference. A 79 is considered hard. With such a sporadic group of readings how can anyone classify these as soft, medium, or hard?
Muellers prints in their catalog that an Elk Master is soft and has a reading of 60.1. But as you can see from are tests that not all the tips are 60.1. Not even close. We tested 300 Triangle tips and got a reading of 62-78. Muellers rating is 81.4. Here is a chart of the tips and readings that we got.
Elk Master: 57-79
Triumph:78
Triangle: 62-78
Moori Medium: 70-73.5
Talisman Soft: 66-74
Talisman Medium: 71-82
Talisman Hard: 77-79
Hercules Medium: 62-63
Black Diamond: 74
Superpro 74-83
Samsara Break Jump:83.5
White Diamond: 89.5
Barioni Double Buff Tall: 65
Barioni Double Buff: 73
Luxor Black:82.5
Luxor Brown:70
All readings are from testing 20 tips except Elk Master 150 and
Triangle 300.
Each and every Barioni tip is now tested with a durometer and either stamped or hand written with the durometer reading. We feel this is the only way to get a consistent hardness rating. It is the most accurate specification.

Mr. Barioni,

This is a good step in the right direction. You might want to explain what the hardness means in terms of the type of testing you are using. Does a 70 for an Elkmaster mean that a 70 in a Moori will play and feel the same? If not what are the differences one can expect with different brands of the same hardness?

 

[Barioni Cues]

What hardness means in relation to leather tips

Mr. Baroni,

This is a good step in the right direction. You might want to explain what the hardness means in terms of the type of testing you are using. Does a 70 for an Elkmaster mean that a 70 in a Moori will play and feel the same? If not what are the differences one can expect with different brands of the same hardness?

A soft tip some where in the neighbor hood of 55 to 62 on the durometer has a soft, quiet hit. The down side is it is very inconsistant. It his getting harder and harder with every hit. In most cases it is also flatening out or changing its shape. This makes it harded to controll the cue ball because it is hard to get used to something that is constantly changing. From all are testing we have found that 76-78 is the magic number. That is the number that all tips eventually get to. If you buy a 60 for instance, it may take several months depending how much you play and weather or not you break with the tip to harden and compact to a dorometer reading of
78. During this time your tip is constantly changing, making it difficult to get used to and bringing your game down. Now on the other hand if you buy a 78 your tip is already at the stage of consistancy. It is not moving or getting any harder for the most part. A lot of people like the softer hit, expecially if they have a ivory ferrule or hard phenolic ferrule. Shafts that are solid and built with tight tollerences can produce a soft hit with a hard tip. OB1 shafts and my shafts are a good example of this.

 

[chefjeff]

Great idea and great work!

Have you calibrated the durometer lately? Perhaps it is giving inaccurate readings?

I'd love to know more about how many hits it takes to get most tips to the 76 range. This would be good info to have when considering a replacement tip to maintain consistency in cueing.

Jeff Livingston

 

[broken]

Yeah for the scientific method!

So what you're saying is that you can't trust any of these tip makers, because each individual tip has a different durometer reading.

 

[Barioni Cues]

Yeah for the scientific method!

So what you're saying is that you can't trust any of these tip makers, because each individual tip has a different durometer reading.

I am not saying you can't trust any of the tip makers. What I am saying is each leather hide that the tips are made out of are all unique and different in hardness and temper. Tip manufacturers should not classify a soft tip soft when it is a medium or hard. That is false advertising! But they all get away with it because most people don't have a durometer and do not go around testing all the tips like I do. A leather hide can be harder and softer in different spots with in the same hyde. Just like are skin is more tender is spots so is the animal. The belly is softer than the back or butt of a cow or horse. All I am saying is each tip should be tested individually with a durometer. Then and only then you know what tip hardness you really have. Just for the record, tips can be purchased from me by the durometer number on our web site.

 

[Barioni Cues]

Great idea and great work!

Have you calibrated the durometer lately? Perhaps it is giving inaccurate readings?

I'd love to know more about how many hits it takes to get most tips to the 76 range. This would be good info to have when considering a replacement tip to maintain consistency in cueing.

Jeff Livingston

Yes, Are durometer is a digital durometer and has been sent out to make sure it is accurate. I get the same readings in the same tip. As for how many hits it takes to get a tip to a 76, just buy a 76. Then your there. The tip doesn't get harder thana 78 in less you press it or temper it. Are experiments shows that if you take a 60 and break with it for about 5 months it only hardens to a 78. It has not gotten any harder. Maybe it could get harder if someone had a harder break than I do. My break is above average but I know there are people out there that can break a lot harder than I can. How ever all the tips we are testing that started out under 78 have not got harder than a 78. In other words if you start out with a 80 or 82 I don't think you can make the tip any harder by playing with it.

 

[Bamacues]

Here is a chart of the tips and readings that we got.
Elk Master: 57-79
Triumph:78
Triangle: 62-78
Moori Medium: 70-73.5
Talisman Soft: 66-74
Talisman Medium: 71-82
Talisman Hard: 77-79
Hercules Medium: 62-63
Black Diamond: 74
Superpro 74-83
Samsara Break Jump:83.5
White Diamond: 89.5
Barioni Double Buff Tall: 65
Barioni Double Buff: 73
Luxor Black:82.5
Luxor Brown:70
All readings are from testing 20 tips except Elk Master 150 and
Triangle 300.
Each and every Barioni tip is now tested with a durometer and either stamped or hand written with the durometer reading. We feel this is the only way to get a consistent hardness rating. It is the most accurate specification.

You mean there was absolutely no variation in the 20 of your own tips that you tested?

Have you done tests on Kamui tips?

Joe

 

[brokenarrowjbe]

What about LePro? Test any of them? Thanks, John

 

[poolplayer2093]

Yeah for the scientific method!

So what you're saying is that you can't trust any of these tip makers, because each individual tip has a different durometer reading.

i dont think its all the tip majers faylt. imo sometimes the leather just dries out. thats what happens to the hard elk masters

 

[RRfireblade]

That's why I always play hard tips and they all get pressed by my own methods first. Only way I can guarantee consistancy.

 

[Barioni Cues]

You mean there was absolutely no variation in the 20 of your own tips that you tested?

Have you done tests on Kamui tips?

Joe

No. I tested my tips with little to variation. But they were all from the same batch. I made a batch of 400. I am sure if I made as many as some of the production manufacturers I would have the same problem they have. That is why I sugested to test each tip before it goes out. The old Mooris were very consistant. Kamui is pretty good also. The kamui tips are a lot like the old Mooris as far as quality goes. Your still better off to buy a few from the same batch if you want consistency.

 

[dr9ball]

We tested 300 Triangle tips and got a reading of 62-78. Muellers rating is 81.4.
Elk Master: 57-79
Triangle: 62-78
Moori Medium: 70-73.5
Talisman Soft: 66-74
Talisman Medium: 71-82
Talisman Hard: 77-79
Hercules Medium: 62-63
Superpro 74-83
Barioni Double Buff Tall: 65
Barioni Double Buff: 73
Luxor Black:82.5
Luxor Brown:70

Will you provide the mean and standard deviation for the tips you listed above? Specifically, I'm interested in the Triangle tips. Knowing that a Triangle tested at 62 and 78 doesn't tell me much about how consistent they are. You tested 300 per your post, so it would be useful to have the average rating and the standard deviation to intrepret the data. I've been using Triangle tips for 20 years and I've never seen one that would be considered soft (i.e. 60-65).

Thanks,

 

[Charlie Edwards]

It sounds like you are on the right track. I have a lot of experience using a durometer in other applications and also on cue
tips. Which duromerer scale do you use, A or D? Also, do you use it hand-held or is it mounted on a stand?

 

[Barioni Cues]

It sounds like you are on the right track. I have a lot of experience using a durometer in other applications and also on cue
tips. Which duromerer scale do you use, A or D? Also, do you use it hand-held or is it mounted on a stand?

Shore D and hand held and on stand. I use the hand held when testing tips that are on the cues. I like to get a reading on the tip when it is installed and after each week so I can see what the tip is doing. I like the shore D because it has a sharp point and goes down a few layers. The shore A is for soft rubber and soforth.

 

[Luc Comtois]

digital durometer

Yes, Are durometer is a digital durometer and has been sent out to make sure it is accurate. I get the same readings in the same tip. As for how many hits it takes to get a tip to a 76, just buy a 76. Then your there. The tip doesn't get harder thana 78 in less you press it or temper it. Are experiments shows that if you take a 60 and break with it for about 5 months it only hardens to a 78. It has not gotten any harder. Maybe it could get harder if someone had a harder break than I do. My break is above average but I know there are people out there that can break a lot harder than I can. How ever all the tips we are testing that started out under 78 have not got harder than a 78. In other words if you start out with a 80 or 82 I don't think you can make the tip any harder by playing with it.

I really appreciated your work and results my friend, very interesting. Now where we could buy a digital durometer.

Lucas
Lucas Cue Shop

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

from pool dawg
Elk Master 10-14mm 66.8
Kamui Black (Super Soft) 14mm 67.5
Da Vinci (Soft) 14mm 68.7
5280 Red Line (Tiger) 14mm 69.2
Kamui Black (Soft) 14mm 72.3
Moori (Soft) 14mm 72.8
Da Vinci (Medium) 14mm 73.6
Hirano (Soft) 14mm 75.2
Moori (Medium) 14mm 75.5
Tiger Everest 14mm 75.7
Tiger Emerald 14mm 76.0
Tiger Onyx 14mm 76.4
Tiger Laminated (Soft)14mm 76.7
Tiger Sniper 14mm 77.8
Kamui II (Soft)14mm 78.1
Tiger Laminated (Medium) 14mm 78.2
Elite 11 Layer 14mm 78.3
Kamui Black (Medium) 14mm 78.7
Moori V 14mm 79.3
Talisman Pro (Soft) 14mm 79.6
Great White 14mm 79.6
Tiger Dynamite 14mm 80.8
Tiger Laminated (Hard) 14mm 81.7
Da Vinci (Hard) 14mm 81.9
Talisman Water Buffalo (Medium) 14mm 82.0
Kamui II (Medium Soft) 14mm 82.2
Talisman Water Buffalo (Hard)
14mm 83.2
Kamui II (Medium)14mm 83.4
Talisman Pro (Medium) 14mm 83.5
Moori (Hard) 14mm 84.4
Talisman Pro (Hard) 14mm 84.4
Hirano (Medium) 14mm 84.8
Kamui Black (Hard) 14mm 84.8
WB Water Buffalo 13-14mm 88.2
Talisman Pro (Extra Hard)14mm 88.7
Hirano (Hard) 14mm 90.6
Triangle 12-14mm 91.0
Triumph 14mm 92.0
Kamui II (Hard) 14mm 92.2
Samsara Jump Break 14mm 95.5
Le Pro 88.2

 

[TheThaiger]

from pool dawg
Elk Master 10-14mm 66.8
Kamui Black (Super Soft) 14mm 67.5
Da Vinci (Soft) 14mm 68.7
5280 Red Line (Tiger) 14mm 69.2
Kamui Black (Soft) 14mm 72.3
Moori (Soft) 14mm 72.8
Da Vinci (Medium) 14mm 73.6
Hirano (Soft) 14mm 75.2
Moori (Medium) 14mm 75.5
Tiger Everest 14mm 75.7
Tiger Emerald 14mm 76.0
Tiger Onyx 14mm 76.4
Tiger Laminated (Soft)14mm 76.7
Tiger Sniper 14mm 77.8
Kamui II (Soft)14mm 78.1
Tiger Laminated (Medium) 14mm 78.2
Elite 11 Layer 14mm 78.3
Kamui Black (Medium) 14mm 78.7
Moori V 14mm 79.3
Talisman Pro (Soft) 14mm 79.6
Great White 14mm 79.6
Tiger Dynamite 14mm 80.8
Tiger Laminated (Hard) 14mm 81.7
Da Vinci (Hard) 14mm 81.9
Talisman Water Buffalo (Medium) 14mm 82.0
Kamui II (Medium Soft) 14mm 82.2
Talisman Water Buffalo (Hard)
14mm 83.2
Kamui II (Medium)14mm 83.4
Talisman Pro (Medium) 14mm 83.5
Moori (Hard) 14mm 84.4
Talisman Pro (Hard) 14mm 84.4
Hirano (Medium) 14mm 84.8
Kamui Black (Hard) 14mm 84.8
WB Water Buffalo 13-14mm 88.2
Talisman Pro (Extra Hard)14mm 88.7
Hirano (Hard) 14mm 90.6
Triangle 12-14mm 91.0
Triumph 14mm 92.0
Kamui II (Hard) 14mm 92.2
Samsara Jump Break 14mm 95.5
Le Pro 88.2

Hmm, they look suspect to me - Triangles at 91? I've never felt they're as hard as people say, never mind being just about as hard as there is. Also, the Kamui Blacks have changed - the last rating like this had the difference between a medium and a hard as minimal, just a point or two - now it's 6. The mediums are softer than earlier version M/S, and it looks like the blacks are coming in softer than the tans, which isn't the case.