FYI Robotic Testing and "CORKED" Shafts

[lorider]

What is new about his shaft? Its cored and stuffed with lighter than wood weighted material, for lower end mass. As you mention, Predator and others have done that for years. I'm trying to understand what new technology he has?

Thanks

Kevin

my post was long enough as it was so i did not fully describe what i believe mr barioni is attempting to do.

according to him he is trying to take ld technology to the next level. he is using only the best wood he can find , coring them and then fine tuning them to be as accurate as possible.

his shafts are custom made one at a time . predator and the others are mostly mass produced.

i am not saying his shafts are worth what he is asking. i am also not saying his shafts are made any better than mass produced ld shafts. but we all will agree custom made anything costs more than mass produced.

as he stated , some of his shafts start at 200.00 to 300.00, not much more than predator. he also stated , the better the wood he uses the higher the price.

just as with any custom cue , some woods are more expensive than other wood so you will pay more for the higher price wood.

 

[lorider]

lorider...To be fair, Mark is "old school" and him not knowing about Sugartree or Eric is not unusual at all. I know about Eric because I met him at the DCC 5 years ago, and played a little with one of his cues. I guarantee you that he knows or knows of at least most of the top 20-30 cuemakers (of which Eric is too new to be included yet). Also, Mark stays pretty much in the east. He's an outstanding table mechanic, and a very sporty player...not to mention a nice guy too. The jury is still out on Mr. Barioni's cues and shafts. To be fair, I am no longer a collector (although I was for 20 years), and outside of here, I've never heard of Barioni cues either.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

if i read your post right we both are basically saying the same thing, we just have a lil different viewpoint. btw i agree word for word what you said about mark.

if i am not mistaken eric has been in biz about the same length of time as barioni. they are both relatively new.

you stated you have known of eric for 5 years by meeting him at dcc, you never heard of barioni except on here.

i stated i have known of barioni for 3 years after seeing one of his cues, i never heard of eric until i joined this forum . see the similarities ?

 

[lorider]

John:

Quick question. It obviously seems as though you have shaft-making mastered. I've found that the reduction in deflection is inversely proportional to the hit of the shaft. Meaning, it's my humble opinion that as the shaft's end-mass gets reduced (and filled with something -- cork, foam, rubber, etc), the vibration of the hit is greatly reduced (feels dead - lacking that certain hit harmonic, if that makes sense).

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that matter. I've always found LD shafts, in general, to feel inferior to solid maple shafts. I'm only talking about the quality/feel of the hit -- not the deflection.

Maybe if we turn this into a technical discussion, it might swing the thread back on track. If people want to pay $600 for a shaft and they think it helps them -- good for everyone involved. I'm used to $250 shafts and I think most serious players are. Amount of labor invested (as you claim) really doesn't determine market value. What determines the market value is quality/experience vs. cost.

Let's be frank -- if your shaft is the end of the world nuts --- $600 might be a good value. I think what a lot of people are thinking is in order for $600 to be a good value, it HAS TO perform and feel OVER twice as good as their current shaft (which they prob already love). That's a big delta.

Hope that makes sense and look forward to your reply-
Dave

great post. you are willing to debate the merits of his work with a lil bit of skeptcisim in a civil manner. exactly what every one else should have done instead browbeating him like they did. and yea barioni could have responded to all the criticisim and outright bashing better then he did.

btw i dont like ld shafts either. i took a predator in trade and shot with it for a while. i did not like the feel of it and gave it to my girlfriend. she loves it and actually shoots better with it than her old cue. to each its own i suppose.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

great post. you are willing to debate the merits of his work with a lil bit of skeptcisim in a civil manner. exactly what every one else should have done instead browbeating him like they did. and yea barioni could have responded to all the criticisim and outright bashing better then he did.

btw i dont like ld shafts either. i took a predator in trade and shot with it for a while. i did not like the feel of it and gave it to my girlfriend. she loves it and actually shoots better with it than her old cue. to each its own i suppose.

I don't knock Barioni for going off the way he did. He made a very professional original post and people knocked him for selling expensive shafts. Since normal higher-end shafts go for $250-300 ea, to sell one at 2x isn't "crazy" like many have said. It's not like Kamui Chalk that sells at something like 120x cost of Master (which, in my opinion, is the gold-standard).

People started to literally make fun of him which was uncalled for.

 

[kvinbrwr]

my post was long enough as it was so i did not fully describe what i believe mr barioni is attempting to do.

according to him he is trying to take ld technology to the next level. he is using only the best wood he can find , coring them and then fine tuning them to be as accurate as possible.

his shafts are custom made one at a time . predator and the others are mostly mass produced.

i am not saying his shafts are worth what he is asking. i am also not saying his shafts are made any better than mass produced ld shafts. but we all will agree custom made anything costs more than mass produced.

as he stated , some of his shafts start at 200.00 to 300.00, not much more than predator. he also stated , the better the wood he uses the higher the price.

just as with any custom cue , some woods are more expensive than other wood so you will pay more for the higher price wood.

Yup I understand. My problem is two fold:

1) He didn't develop the technology he's talking about using. He's just looking to perfect it through wood choice and precision engineering. I keep on looking at the examples of his cues and his wood choice and precision seems sorely lacking to me, especially in light of his claims, attitude and prices. Now maybe his cue building and his shaft making are completely divorced, but from my small experience with the craft, that is never true, a craftsman is a craftsman through and through.

2) For his claims regarding the remarkable playing ability of his shafts, there has been not one poster here I know that has one word to say, good or bad about his cues. He's in California, I'm in California, I know several people that are extremely well-versed in cues and love to talk about workmanship, playability and precision in the craft, and I have heard not one word about Mr Baroni, although he has been doing it for almost 10 years with what he says are remarkable results. That seems odd to me.

Thanks

Kevin

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Spidey:
...it's my humble opinion that as the shaft's end-mass gets reduced (and filled with something -- cork, foam, rubber, etc), the vibration of the hit is greatly reduced (feels dead - lacking that certain hit harmonic, if that makes sense).

That was my complaint about the early Predator I played with for a few years. Then I got a custom made XLS (Xtra Low Squirt) shaft that's hollow like a Predator but "communicates" like a solid shaft. So not all low squirt shafts are "dead".

I think Predator's soft ferrule could play a big part in muffling the hit.

pj
chgo

 

[Barioni Cues]

John:

Quick question. It obviously seems as though you have shaft-making mastered. I've found that the reduction in deflection is inversely proportional to the hit of the shaft. Meaning, it's my humble opinion that as the shaft's end-mass gets reduced (and filled with something -- cork, foam, rubber, etc), the vibration of the hit is greatly reduced (feels dead - lacking that certain hit harmonic, if that makes sense).

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that matter. I've always found LD shafts, in general, to feel inferior to solid maple shafts. I'm only talking about the quality/feel of the hit -- not the deflection.

Maybe if we turn this into a technical discussion, it might swing the thread back on track. If people want to pay $600 for a shaft and they think it helps them -- good for everyone involved. I'm used to $250 shafts and I think most serious players are. Amount of labor invested (as you claim) really doesn't determine market value. What determines the market value is quality/experience vs. cost.

Let's be frank -- if your shaft is the end of the world nuts --- $600 might be a good value. I think what a lot of people are thinking is in order for $600 to be a good value, it HAS TO perform and feel OVER twice as good as their current shaft (which they prob already love). That's a big delta.

Hope that makes sense and look forward to your reply-
Dave

Hi Dave,
Thanks for the kind words. I am not known by my work on AZ but I am well known and respected and even regarded as one of the best here in California by my customers. I have 1 or 2 customers in quite a bit of other States as well and also out of the Country. I have never been to a cue show and I never even went to Vegas for the BCA trade show. I never even tried to market or sell out side of California till 2008 or 2009. I have not sold one cue on AZ. I don't believe I tried to either. I did however try to reach out and get heard of. Looking back, I should have just advertized in Pool & Billiard Mag or Billiard Digest or went to some cue shows. I have not been a member of AZ very long. I am not trying to sell more cues or shafts either. I can't keep up with the orders now. Some of my new customers are tired of waiting and I couldn't imagine taking more work on until I get caught up. I get calls and e-mails all day and have little time to answer them. I posted on AZ that I was discontinuing a service with hopes to save hundreds of e-mails. I thought I could just let a lot people know with just a post. I was wrong. This ended up being more time consuming. Lesson learned. In all fairness I have spent more hours than I can count doing research and getting shaft to squirt less and less. As far as turning this thread into a technical discussion, although a good Idea, I do not have the time or the desire. I don't want everyone out here knowing what I am doing to get the results so they can copy it and take the credit for it. I will try to elaborate a little to clear some of the confusion and misguided posts.
1st: My shaft are way different than all the rest and so are the features on the butt of my cues. I am going to try to shorten this post by saying to learn more about my cues visit my website to see and understand the differences.
2nd: My shafts are not filled with CORK, Silicone, or anything else for that matter.
3rd:My customers tell me all the time, they love the hit of my cues. If you see one of my cues out there ask to hit with it and make the decision on your own.
4th: As many have stated, I should not boast or brag and let the product speak for itself. With that mindset if you see someone using my cue ask him what he thinks of it and see if he or she will let you hit with it.
5Th: I invite all to see it in person, see the tests in person, challenge you to test your cue against mine in person any time at our facility. I am not trying to hide or duct any thing and I stand behind my claims unlike others.
I can prove my claims, I will put my money where my mouth is so you don't come here for nothing, meaning if my claims were false you get paid for your time and it is not a wasted trip. I need you all to see it so you can believe it. If I had the money and time to truck load my testing equipment and set it up all over the world for all to see I would. But I don't have the time or money so you will have to come here or settle for my B rated youtube videos.

 

[Barioni Cues]

Yup I understand. My problem is two fold:

1) He didn't develop the technology he's talking about using. He's just looking to perfect it through wood choice and precision engineering. I keep on looking at the examples of his cues and his wood choice and precision seems sorely lacking to me, especially in light of his claims, attitude and prices. Now maybe his cue building and his shaft making are completely divorced, but from my small experience with the craft, that is never true, a craftsman is a craftsman through and through.

2) For his claims regarding the remarkable playing ability of his shafts, there has been not one poster here I know that has one word to say, good or bad about his cues. He's in California, I'm in California, I know several people that are extremely well-versed in cues and love to talk about workmanship, playability and precision in the craft, and I have heard not one word about Mr Baroni, although he has been doing it for almost 10 years with what he says are remarkable results. That seems odd to me.

Thanks

Kevin

Kevin- Your wrong on all accounts. I did invent, develop, engineer, and make my cues, shafts, and tips. Although the principals have some similarity they are nothing alike. I am not going to show how it is made so others can copy it. The design has changed since the robot. All the Predator, OB and Meucci Shafts I tested in person in front of many players, so their are witnesses- my shaft beat them all by half. It is not even close. It is not even a competition. Now all those I just mentioned beat all the custom cues and production cues by half on average. There was some custom cues that were close but the result varied from shaft to shaft of the same maker. If you think I am full of it or find this to be unbelievable, come here and see it for your self. You can bring your camera, video tape it, I don't care. Maybe your videos will turn out better than mine. This stands to all who read this. Bring what ever cue or shaft you have, bring you video camera and see it for your self. All I ask is to share the results with all your friends. I have video taped many of the results I speak of and am trying to get them on my website for all of you to see.

 

[Barioni Cues]

my post was long enough as it was so i did not fully describe what i believe mr barioni is attempting to do.

according to him he is trying to take ld technology to the next level. he is using only the best wood he can find , coring them and then fine tuning them to be as accurate as possible.

his shafts are custom made one at a time . predator and the others are mostly mass produced.

i am not saying his shafts are worth what he is asking. i am also not saying his shafts are made any better than mass produced ld shafts. but we all will agree custom made anything costs more than mass produced.

as he stated , some of his shafts start at 200.00 to 300.00, not much more than predator. he also stated , the better the wood he uses the higher the price.

just as with any custom cue , some woods are more expensive than other wood so you will pay more for the higher price wood.

I am glad to see someone here on AZ has an open mind and understands.
Thank you lorider!

 

[Barioni Cues]

Scott

I know.

I hope he's pool's savior. I'd like to have a LD Gina shaft or 2. Ernie won't do it. Its just that after looking at the quality of Mr Baroni's cues, I'd be a little skittish about sending him a $300 Ginacue shaft that Ernie shaved little by little over almost as long as Mr Baroni has been making cues.

Some testimonials from AZ members I know that have used Mr Baroni's work would really set my mind at ease before I sent him Gina shafts to core out and plug for me. I'm sure those testimonials are coming soon.

Thanks

Kevin

Kevin,
I was saving this for last. Gina cues are one of the top in my opinion. You knock my craftsmen ship but truth is anyone that has a Gina is very protective of it. They are very collectable and probably sold for some of the highest prices. Many owners of a Gina look long and hard before they let someone work on it besides Ernie. A lot of cue builders are afraid to work on one. Here is one I just completely stripped down and refinished and all the specs were taken before and after with a mic. They were the same when finished and all the shafts and joint protectors matched perfectly. I was told this Gina cue was worth $10K. It is 10 years old. The owner has two more. One of them is 40 years old and 50k was offered for it. I hear Ernie is making his 50 year anniversary cues right now and then plans to retire. Here are the before pics of the Gina I just stripped down and refinished.

 

[Barioni Cues]

Here are the after pics of the Gina I stripped down and refinished. I charged $450 to do the job.

 

[Barioni Cues]

This Gina is not for sale. The owner will not sell it. Here are more pics.

 

[champ2107]

you know i had a friend that was closing his clothing store and he had 20 sweaters he put at half price and still could not sell them. He then kept them on sale but tripled the price and he quickly sold them all :thumbup:

 

[Hungarian]

Pow. Reached down and pulled one up from the bottom. Let's see what Kevin thinks about this. Did you get approval from Ernie to do this refinish?

Here are the after pics of the Gina I stripped down and refinished. I charged $450 to do the job.

 

[Fast Lenny]

I hate to burst your friends bubble but that Gina is not worth no $10,000, maybe like $1500-$2000, 4 pointers go for around $2500 or so.

 

[Barioni Cues]

Pow. Reached down and pulled one up from the bottom. Let's see what Kevin thinks about this. Did you get approval from Ernie to do this refinish?

No, I did not get approval from Ernie to do this. Ernie does not own this cue any more. He sold it to my customer 10 years ago. I don't think Ernie would mind, it came out perfectly. It now looks as good as the day Ernie finished it, Maybe even better. The reason I say maybe even better is because The clear I used is about $100 for 1 cue. It is the best that is out there. That is why Mercedes Benz uses it. Also the clears are better and more advanced now than they were 10 years ago. California is the worst for EPA regulations. But because of it Dupont and PPG just to name a few have spent millions to improve the product. Now new high tech spray guns are needed just to spray it. I have about $8000.00 invested in my spray set up just for cues and another $40,000.00 for cars and motorcycles. And yes I was in numerous magazines and newspaper for cars I have done and I still am a Dupont certified and licensed refinisher.

I know, you all think I am full of it so here is some proof.

 

[Barioni Cues]

I hate to burst your friends bubble but that Gina is not worth no $10,000, maybe like $1500-$2000, 4 pointers go for around $2500 or so.

It is worth it if that is what a collector offered for it.
He turned it down any way.

 

[Fast Lenny]

It is worth it if that is what a collector offered for it.
He turned it down any way.

Well here is one like his for a 1/4 of the price.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=266989&highlight=ginacue

Here is a pretty fancy one for $4,000.
http://www.cornerstonecues.com/cue615.htm

For $10,000 I imagine you can get something really really fancy and not just a plain jane. Tell your friend to sell that cue to a collector who thought it was worth 10K and then go to Ernie and buy 4 of the same ones.

 

[ratnip]

Custom Cue Customer

Hello AZ’rs,

I have been a member of this community for many years and have recently ordered a custom cue from John. John’s customer service and communication thus far has been outstanding. He has answered all of my questions, concerns and provided honest feedback tailored to my individual needs as a customer.

A few reasons why I choose to purchase a cue from John are as follows (in no particular order):

Over the past year or so I have never seen one of his cues on the secondary market (please consider that he’s made and sold 300+ cues in the past 10 years).

Secondly, he tailors the cue handle to fit the customers hand dimensions, meaning it will be the same diameter.

Lastly, he claims to make the lowest deflecting shaft in the world, which I want to own. He substantiates this claim with robot testing via video (video isn’t Hollywood HD theater quality).

The way I see it is John came on here with a public service notification for which he was belittled, ridiculed and criticized. I believe he made every attempt to confidently stand behind his product and service by actually responding to most posts. He still is answering posts this morning.

By no means will I ever buy a shaft for $600; however, this appears to be his highest quality shaft that he does have in LIMITED quantities for customers. Presently it appears he has over 300 satisfied customers, of which a few might be interested in the A++ shaft.

Suggestion for John: Maybe you should have posted in the Wanted/For Sale section as it appears there are provisions that protect sellers…such as the following:
6) If you are going to post in another's sale or trade thread, if you are knocking their thread, you will receive warnings and bans as with regular rule violations.
7) You have no right to criticize or complain regarding pictures, prices etc.
8) Everyone is expected to participate in a civil manner and if there are violations, you may report them anonymously via the "report post " button in the upper right hand corner of each post.
9) Either buy from an individual or don't but knocking them is not an option.

Jay P. providing honest feedback to the community involving my interactions with John Barioni as requested by the community.

 

[dkleather]

John:

Quick question. It obviously seems as though you have shaft-making mastered. I've found that the reduction in deflection is inversely proportional to the hit of the shaft. Meaning, it's my humble opinion that as the shaft's end-mass gets reduced (and filled with something -- cork, foam, rubber, etc), the vibration of the hit is greatly reduced (feels dead - lacking that certain hit harmonic, if that makes sense).

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that matter. I've always found LD shafts, in general, to feel inferior to solid maple shafts. I'm only talking about the quality/feel of the hit -- not the deflection.

I agree with this. I played snooker and decided I wanted a real ramrod of a cue. I got a 3/4 ash shaft put it in the lathe and drilled out the top 5ins with a 2mm diameter bit. I cored it with black ebony.

Well I could stop a long straight red down the line EASY. I have never experienced a hit like it or power like it. BUT as soon as I deviated form centre ball striking it was a comedy show and power was all it had.