troubles with double hitting

bullshot

bullshot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I just don't understand how some people can have the cue ball frozen to their object ball, and think it's ok to line up directly behind it and fire through both balls, causing a double hit. I think the real culprit is ignorance, because every time I've tried telling someone that's unfamiliar with double hitting that they just fouled they'll get pissed off and argue tenaciously that it wasn't a foul. Even when i point out to them that they were aiming on the bottom of the cueball and they still managed to send the cue ball flying forward faster than the OB! /rant

Just curious how do you guys deal with situations like these? post any stories you have too.
 
I've always played that if object ball and cue ball are frozen, you can play the shot straight on since the cue ball will not "rebound" back and hit the cue a second time. Thus, it like the object ball was not even there.

And everyone I know plays this way.....in leagues and tourneys..... heck, I've never been called on it in my life, nor have I called someone on it....
 
bullshot said:
I just don't understand how some people can have the cue ball frozen to their object ball, and think it's ok to line up directly behind it and fire through both balls, causing a double hit. I think the real culprit is ignorance, because every time I've tried telling someone that's unfamiliar with double hitting that they just fouled they'll get pissed off and argue tenaciously that it wasn't a foul. Even when i point out to them that they were aiming on the bottom of the cueball and they still managed to send the cue ball flying forward faster than the OB! /rant

Just curious how do you guys deal with situations like these? post any stories you have too.
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You may want to re-read the rules because at least according to the World Standardized Rules of pool, it is legal to shoot straight towards a ball the cue ball is frozen to. Here is the web site: http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_rules_of_play

Which rules do you usually play by?

A minor point is that when you shoot a shot like that, there is only one tip-to-cue-ball contact. This has been studied with high-speed video.
 
I guess I don't quite understand how it is a legal shot. The only ways I can think of to get the cue ball to move forward while aiming low on the cue ball is by either hitting it twice or pushing through both balls which to my knowledge are both fouls. to clarify more there is no jacking up involved, it's like shooting any other shot with some pretty unpredictable results.
 
Yep, frozen is no foul. Any daylight at all, up to an inch or so, will cause a double hit shooting through the cb. I've seen some folks do a masse/draw when it was pretty close and avoid the foul, but not too many. I've seen others jack up and hit draw that doesn't "take" for a foot or so that claim its a good hit...no way...there's really no "follow-draw", it's only a myth made up by bullshit artists.
:cool:
 
bullshot said:
I just don't understand how some people can have the cue ball frozen to their object ball, and think it's ok to line up directly behind it and fire through both balls, causing a double hit. I think the real culprit is ignorance, because every time I've tried telling someone that's unfamiliar with double hitting that they just fouled they'll get pissed off and argue tenaciously that it wasn't a foul. Even when i point out to them that they were aiming on the bottom of the cueball and they still managed to send the cue ball flying forward faster than the OB! /rant

Just curious how do you guys deal with situations like these? post any stories you have too.
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Bullshot,

Beware when accusing others of ignorance! You describe a situation in which the cue ball is frozen to the object ball. In MANY rules it is allowed to shoot straight through the cueball. This is because there is considerable evidence suggesting that a double hit does NOT occur and CANNOT occur when the balls are frozen. When there is even the slightest space, then a double hit is very likely. Make sure you are upset about the right thing ;-)

KMRUNOUT
 
I find that sometimes people use the term frozen meaning the balls are just very close together.

If the balls are actually frozen (Touching) then it is legal to shoot straight into them.Shooting into a frozen CB you might jack up or use extreme spin to play position since the CB is hard to control on this type of shot.Since the cue ball and object ball are frozen both balls react as one object when first struck.
 
bullshot said:
I just don't understand how some people can have the cue ball frozen to their object ball, and think it's ok to line up directly behind it and fire through both balls, causing a double hit. I think the real culprit is ignorance, .
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I think the real culprit is ignorance as well.

Freddie <~~~ hint: it's not a double-hit
 
The reason it is not a foul if the balls are frozen is because it is not a double hit. Here's one of Dr. Dave's videos explaining it. At about 20 seconds is a slo-mo of the hit and you can clearly see the CB is not truck twice. A little later in the video the same shot with draw is illustrated - again, no foul.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-48.htm

But the balls must be frozen or it in all probability IS a double hit foul. In a match if it is your turn, it is best to declare the balls frozen to you opponent, and give him the opportunity to check for himself if he chooses. Typically in a tournament, the balls should be declared frozen.

People mistake the frozen ball situation as a foul because the balls behave in a similar manner to when the balls are not frozen and it is a foul - namely that the CB follows the object ball at a similar speed. But when the balls are frozen this does not happen because of a double hit - it happens because when the balls are frozen they behave as though they are one ball. When the balls are NOT frozen the double hit IS the reason this happens.
 
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Is the rule on close but unfrozen balls still if the 2 balls are closer than a chalk's width,and the cue ball goes forward more than 1/2 a ball,it's a foul?

That was how the old PBT rules read. Tommy D.
 
Tommy-D said:
Is the rule on close but unfrozen balls still if the 2 balls are closer than a chalk's width,and the cue ball goes forward more than 1/2 a ball,it's a foul?

That was how the old PBT rules read. Tommy D.
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Tommy, the rule is it is a foul if you double hit the cue ball, no matter what the situation. If the balls are not absolutely frozen but are very close together, it is almost impossible to NOT double hit the CB with a normal level stroke. Some play that as long as you hit away at 45 degrees or more then it is not a foul. But this is not in the official rules. Again, you can hit away at more than 45 degrees and still double hit the CB, in which case you fouled.

One trick to avoid the double hit when hitting away is to hit away with inside english. This can help avoid what otherwise might be a double hit even when not hitting away at much angle. Here's a video of Bob Jewett demonstrating the fouette shot:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-52.htm
 
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bullshot said:
I just don't understand how some people can have the cue ball frozen to their object ball, and think it's ok to line up directly behind it and fire through both balls, causing a double hit. I think the real culprit is ignorance, because every time I've tried telling someone that's unfamiliar with double hitting that they just fouled they'll get pissed off and argue tenaciously that it wasn't a foul. Even when i point out to them that they were aiming on the bottom of the cueball and they still managed to send the cue ball flying forward faster than the OB! /rant

Just curious how do you guys deal with situations like these? post any stories you have too.
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It's an inherant problem with our game and it will never go away. Expect it, don't fight it. If you going to match up with a good player, get this aspect of the game out in the open before play starts, if its a problem then, expect other problems during play. Because our game deals with such finite issues, average players have no clue and see no reason why it can be a bad hit because they don't understand ball collisions etc. Let the dead horse lie.
 
Of course hitting into the frozen object ball is legal and will not cause a double hit. It is also very easy to aim slightly to the right and throw the object ball in that direction or vice versa. With practice it is possible to shoot through the frozen object ball and judge cue ball deflection well enough to have the cue ball pocket a 9 ball down table.
 
there are also a couple other ways to avoid a double hit when the proximity is close. If the cue ball is struck with enough bottom side it will come of the object directly to the side and not cause a double hit as will an upstroke where the cue goes over the top of the cue ball as it makes contact. you can also mark the point where the cue is just shy of making contact with the cue ball if you are far enough out on the table and place your grip hand there and allow your grip hand to strike the rail and stop forward progress of the cue the small amount of give in your hand will allow you strike the cue ball with zero follow through.
 
rayjay said:
Yep, frozen is no foul. Any daylight at all, up to an inch or so, will cause a double hit shooting through the cb. I've seen some folks do a masse/draw when it was pretty close and avoid the foul, but not too many. I've seen others jack up and hit draw that doesn't "take" for a foot or so that claim its a good hit...no way...there's really no "follow-draw", it's only a myth made up by bullshit artists.
:cool:
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not true. jacking up and hitting draw when close to a ball can essentially create the same effect as a jump shot. in this instance, the cue-ball makes contact with the object-ball continues to hop forward after contact and the draw takes after the cue-ball is done bouncing and grabs the cloth. true story
 
bullshot said:
I just don't understand how some people can have the cue ball frozen to their object ball, and think it's ok to line up directly behind it and fire through both balls, causing a double hit. I think the real culprit is ignorance, because every time I've tried telling someone that's unfamiliar with double hitting that they just fouled they'll get pissed off and argue tenaciously that it wasn't a foul. Even when i point out to them that they were aiming on the bottom of the cueball and they still managed to send the cue ball flying forward faster than the OB! /rant

Just curious how do you guys deal with situations like these? post any stories you have too.
Click to expand...

Don't know about ignorance, but in the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championships
if the balls are frozen you are allowed to as you say "line up directly behind it and fire through both balls" and it's not a foul. Just thought I'd mention that.
 
itsfroze said:
Don't know about ignorance, but in the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championships
if the balls are frozen you are allowed to as you say "line up directly behind it and fire through both balls" and it's not a foul. Just thought I'd mention that.
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True, but if you don't really know what your doing, you can easily follow thur on this type of shot too long and ''make'' it a bad hit/dbl hit/push shot. A knowlegable ref or TD in this spot is needed. Any pro can make the call properly on this shot, some TD's tho have more ego than knowlege in local events and will often cause a problem because of inexperience.
 
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