New TAR format - Thoughts after 3 events

xianmacx

xianmacx

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey everyone,

Now that 3 of the new TAR matches are complete, just wanted to see what everyones thoughts and opinions are. First, my hats off to Justin/Nasty and everyone else involved to make these matches happen.

Here are my thoughts after 3 events:

Pros:
1. Great to have more frequent events.
2. Great to have more predictable end time for each day
3. Great to have more frequent events.
4. Great to see players that otherwise havent' been on TAR. (Very hard to say no to a freeroll)
5. Great to have more frequest events.

Cons:
1. Matches are starting to have more of a tourny feel and less of gambling. I don't seem to get tense watching these matches. I get the same overall feeling as when I am watching a tourny. For the most part could care less about the outcome. I think that comes from knowing that neither player stands to lose anything, just like the finals of the tourny. Both players win, just one a little more than the other.
2. I just didn't feel glued to the tv when Johnny was down, trying to wish him through a comeback. With the older matches, I felt my self getting emotionally involved for the player getting beat up on. Like in the example of Alex and Shane, I was literally cheering for Alex to mount a comeback. And I
think it was because in that match, someone, somewhere, Alex or stakehorse had some real money on the line to LOSE.

I would like to hear what other TAR fans opinions are. I have watched almost every TAR match from the very begining and realize this is likely the only sustainable model, but just want to open some conversation.

Thanks,
Ian
 
I like what's going down. I think the expenses should continue to get paid for the players for sure.

The money disbursement though might be changeable. What if each player starts with $3k in their bank rolls. They could bet $1500/ set or something. Then if they tie first two days put all the cash on the line. Maybe if they lose in the first two days, give the players an option to bet their own cash on day 3 to play a set.

I really don't care who's money it is whether its from TAR, sponsors, or whomever. I just like there always being an option for Day 3 and I like if you don't win at all you shouldnt go home with extra money. Expenses should be covered though.
 
Thats a good thought Mikey about the loser and expenses. Might be a good solution.
 
Why not just make it $5,000 to the winner, loser gets nothing. They still get their expenses paid for, so it's still technically a free roll, but they get nothing if they don't win.

That way, it puts more pressure on them knowing they have to win to get paid. It would make it much more like a gambling match. When they're getting staked in a $10k match, the winner would get $4-5k and the loser would get nothing.

Even if you lose, you had an equal shot at the cash and you aren't out anything other than your time...same format as a backer match up.
 
Some interesting ideas here. The way I look at it is in lots of other sports pro athletes get paid win or lose and people expect that. In the UFC sometimes one guy makes much more than the other win or lose due to his contract. In boxing the guarantees are up front with bonuses often paid for going over certain numbers on a PPV. Baseball, football, basketball, soccer all get paid win or lose. About the only sports I can think of that dont are tennis and golf.

From my point of view it doesnt really matter how the money is paid out. $5K is $5K no matter how its disbursed. The people who do care are the players. I have asked several players about playing for $5000 winner take all and not one has said they prefer that over the current format. I also believe playing all or nothing insures someone will chop at some point. Thats because they do not view it the same way as a backer putting them in but as a free roll they get cut out of. Say what you will but I believe that to be the case. A smart person tries to avoid the traps he can see.

I think there is a misunderstanding about many of our past matches, rarely did players send in a bunch of their own money. I though most people were well aware it usually a backer or corporation that put the money in. The players were usually playing for 30-40% so the most they could win was $4000 and the most they could lose was $0. It is a different type of match to be sure but the numbers in the end are pretty much the same.

I think the way forward for pro pool is the one on one matches. Tournaments don't work and never have. The type of matches we have started means the fans get more input in to what gets made and the guys who draw the most fan interest gets more opportunities. This creates a sense in the players that instead of just showing up for a tournament and taking a crack at added money they have to create some kind of following for themselves in order to get a shot at the money.

Here's the thing that makes it all work....you do. The people who buy the matches. It self sustains. We are not reliant on a benefactor who can pull the plug at any minute or decide to buy a new car this year instead of sponsor an event. Its great to see threads talking about how to change or improve the new model and I am certainly paying attention to them. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.
 
I love Justin's response!

I am all about cross marketing! TAR needs to have the bca buy prepaid access to matches and make them prizes for team captains and other league prizes and give aways. Why not create 1000 logins have them as a write off/business expense

I would give member discounts. Use the email mailing list to send advertisement. Have an email mailing list for ALL azbilliards members. Concentrate on getting numbers up. The product is fine the advertising and marketing can take it to the next level!

Kd

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
 
JCIN said:
Some interesting ideas here. The way I look at it is in lots of other sports pro athletes get paid win or lose and people expect that. In the UFC sometimes one guy makes much more than the other win or lose due to his contract. In boxing the guarantees are up front with bonuses often paid for going over certain numbers on a PPV. Baseball, football, basketball, soccer all get paid win or lose. About the only sports I can think of that dont are tennis and golf.

From my point of view it doesnt really matter how the money is paid out. $5K is $5K no matter how its disbursed. The people who do care are the players. I have asked several players about playing for $5000 winner take all and not one has said they prefer that over the current format. I also believe playing all or nothing insures someone will chop at some point. Thats because they do not view it the same way as a backer putting them in but as a free roll they get cut out of. Say what you will but I believe that to be the case. A smart person tries to avoid the traps he can see.

I think there is a misunderstanding about many of our past matches, rarely did players send in a bunch of their own money. I though most people were well aware it usually a backer or corporation that put the money in. The players were usually playing for 30-40% so the most they could win was $4000 and the most they could lose was $0. It is a different type of match to be sure but the numbers in the end are pretty much the same.

I think the way forward for pro pool is the one on one matches. Tournaments don't work and never have. The type of matches we have started means the fans get more input in to what gets made and the guys who draw the most fan interest gets more opportunities. This creates a sense in the players that instead of just showing up for a tournament and taking a crack at added money they have to create some kind of following for themselves in order to get a shot at the money.

Here's the thing that makes it all work....you do. The people who buy the matches. It self sustains. We are not reliant on a benefactor who can pull the plug at any minute or decide to buy a new car this year instead of sponsor an event. Its great to see threads talking about how to change or improve the new model and I am certainly paying attention to them. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.
Click to expand...

I believe the top golfers and tennis players might get appearance fees for tournaments as well. Didn't Tiger just get like a million dollars to play in Dubai?

So I like the format $4000 winner and $1000 loser. The players should get paid. I mean this is their job after all.
 
I would like to see an option where you package the DVD with the stream purchase. Pay a little more to have both but it be discounted from what it would cost to buy each separately. Most of the time I wouldn't be able to watch most of the stream but I have wanted to watch what I could but didn't buy it because I would miss most of it. I would have bought some of these if I would get the DVD later.

Not sure what TAR is doing as far as DVD's now but if there was a way to watch the content later in its entirety offline that would work as well.
 
rjbigfish said:
I would like to see an option where you package the DVD with the stream purchase. Pay a little more to have both but it be discounted from what it would cost to buy each separately. Most of the time I wouldn't be able to watch most of the stream but I have wanted to watch what I could but didn't buy it because I would miss most of it. I would have bought some of these if I would get the DVD later.

Not sure what TAR is doing as far as DVD's now but if there was a way to watch the content later in its entirety offline that would work as well.
Click to expand...

Love your DVD idea with purchase, I personally would at least pay an extra $25 bucks or so for the ppv If I would get a copy of the DVD a month or so down the road, however I'm sure this would be labor intensive for TAR and may or may not benefit them...JMO
 
Another kudos Justin. The looping of matches is great. I don't even hesitate based on my plans the night of the match, as I know I can catch what I missed for the next 20 hours.
 
I think the current format with $4k for the winner and $1k for the loser is most appropriate because $1k will pretty much cover the trip/hotel/transportation/expenses, the winner makes $3k and the loser doesnt really make anything, but aat lease expenses are covered.
 
I like the current format. JCIN totally gets it realizing the importance of taking constructive input from us TAR fans.

Its a slippery slope to avoid putting Shane/Busty/JA in the box constantly without risking putting guys on who won't sell. If this format survives its going to take some risks and creativity. If I had one complaint about the JA/Busty match it would be there wasn't much edge to the match. It seemed like there was too much respect.

I think Shane vs Frost in 1P would be a classic. I would love to see Appleton in the box vs Busty/Orcollo. How about Bartram vs Stevie Moore or Oscar. Or Bartram vs One of the top girls...9 ball with 4.5" pockets not the TAR thimbles. Bartram against one of the top flight girls could spur a ton of interest outside the pool world if marketed correctly.

Shane vs Appleton 8 ball would be cool. JCIN- I saw this mentioned in another thread. How about a TAR membership. We pay upfront yearly dues and get a discount on the TAR events?

BTW-I am a big fan of ten ball..but you have to mix it up in the future.
 
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JCIN said:
Some interesting ideas here. The way I look at it is in lots of other sports pro athletes get paid win or lose and people expect that. In the UFC sometimes one guy makes much more than the other win or lose due to his contract. In boxing the guarantees are up front with bonuses often paid for going over certain numbers on a PPV. Baseball, football, basketball, soccer all get paid win or lose. About the only sports I can think of that dont are tennis and golf.

From my point of view it doesnt really matter how the money is paid out. $5K is $5K no matter how its disbursed. The people who do care are the players. I have asked several players about playing for $5000 winner take all and not one has said they prefer that over the current format. I also believe playing all or nothing insures someone will chop at some point. Thats because they do not view it the same way as a backer putting them in but as a free roll they get cut out of. Say what you will but I believe that to be the case. A smart person tries to avoid the traps he can see.

I think there is a misunderstanding about many of our past matches, rarely did players send in a bunch of their own money. I though most people were well aware it usually a backer or corporation that put the money in. The players were usually playing for 30-40% so the most they could win was $4000 and the most they could lose was $0. It is a different type of match to be sure but the numbers in the end are pretty much the same.

I think the way forward for pro pool is the one on one matches. Tournaments don't work and never have. The type of matches we have started means the fans get more input in to what gets made and the guys who draw the most fan interest gets more opportunities. This creates a sense in the players that instead of just showing up for a tournament and taking a crack at added money they have to create some kind of following for themselves in order to get a shot at the money.

Here's the thing that makes it all work....you do. The people who buy the matches. It self sustains. We are not reliant on a benefactor who can pull the plug at any minute or decide to buy a new car this year instead of sponsor an event. Its great to see threads talking about how to change or improve the new model and I am certainly paying attention to them. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.
Click to expand...
BRAVO, Justin, BRAVO.
 
spliced said:
I think the current format with $4k for the winner and $1k for the loser is most appropriate because $1k will pretty much cover the trip/hotel/transportation/expenses, the winner makes $3k and the loser doesnt really make anything, but aat lease expenses are covered.
Click to expand...

Transportation and hotel are already covered, any money won is on top of that.
 
I like the current payout scheme, it's important for the players involved to be happy with that, regardless of our excitement...JCIN makes a perfect point in that winner take all breeds eventual tendency to chop...and where's the excitement there?

I'd love to see a couple of legends match ups...Buddy Hall, Jim Rempe, Keith McCready, Matlock, etc...if the matchup is skillfully selected to avoid a total blow out, you would have a very entertaining match, especially if there's some good woofing going on.

Love the +DVD idea, but it's just as good (and maybe less overhead) to add an option for a HD MP4 download.

Memberships and discount packages might or might not not be a good business model...those that would pay memberships for a season's pass are already buying the matches, so TAR may not get any benefit in broader subscription. Maybe a season pass would get more money out of folks that are a little picky about matches they buy, but might jump on a "deal", but not sure if that would really add revenue across the board or not. Maybe something to try and see if it works?
 
xianmacx said:
Another kudos Justin. The looping of matches is great. I don't even hesitate based on my plans the night of the match, as I know I can catch what I missed for the next 20 hours.
Click to expand...

I second this. I absolutely love the loop since I'm in and out of my place all night. What would be awesome would be a countdown to the start of the loop so that we can jump in and watch the whole thing from the start without seeing the score spoiler. Don't know how hard that would be to program.
 
rjbigfish said:
I would like to see an option where you package the DVD with the stream purchase. Pay a little more to have both but it be discounted from what it would cost to buy each separately. Most of the time I wouldn't be able to watch most of the stream but I have wanted to watch what I could but didn't buy it because I would miss most of it. I would have bought some of these if I would get the DVD later.

Not sure what TAR is doing as far as DVD's now but if there was a way to watch the content later in its entirety offline that would work as well.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I too would like to see a stream/DVD bundle. Even if VOD were available, I would like DVD better, as it is more versatile in terms of off-line viewing and conversion to other formats like phones, iPad, etc, however, it is also more suseptible to boot-legging...

I would like to see a TAR annual membership, where the customer is guaranteed x number of matches per year, and you could have options for stream only or stream + DVD. I would expect the annual membership fee would be discounted when compared to purchasing each individual match, however TAR would be paid upfront, and essentially selling every match for that year to the member, where without the membership, that person might only choose to buy 3 or 4 matches. Also, if TAR isn't doing any form of marketing to the CSI membership, someone is definitely asleep at the switch...

I haven't been watching the availability of the DVDs lately, but IMO without the DVD aspect, both TAR and the customers are missing out.

Back to the new format question...
I like the 2/3 set fomat, but its a bummer when it doesn't go to the 3rd day... match making becomes key to create the close matches that will go to day 3.
If I had to choose just one game to view, it would be 10-ball, however, I'm a big fan of the "overall" format using other games like 1P, banks, 14.1 as well.
Looping the prior day's play is essential to provide viewing time flexibility to the customer.
Justin has mentioned possibly going from race to 25 down to 21, and I would be fine with that.
Good commentators (like KS) continue to be key as well.
Lastly, a good music track is also important IMO, and TAR continues to do a good job there. You can turn the volume off and provide your own tunes, but then you lose the comments, which IMO are very valuable.

Keep up the good work TAR, your product continues to get better and better, and is already the best option out there. :thumbup:
 
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I got a wild hair to post this half baked idea. Take a look. Tell me I'm crazy or if you like the idea.

My Concerns and Possible Solutions:

****Disclaimer - This is just my point of view. I may not know my asse from a hole in the ground as to whether or not my proposed solutions will work. Also, you may not agree with my concerns, but so what, it's my post and my dream:groucho:****

1.) Race to 25 can get boring at times to watch.
Solution: More, shorter races per day​

2.) One long session per day gets lumpy and it gets pretty late on Sunday. People have to work.
Solution: Two late sessions on Friday, three sessions on Saturday starting with a Noon Matinée and two session on Sunday starting at 3PM ish. Couple hour break between sessions.​

3.) Ten Ball is one dimensional and Eight Ball and One Pocket are both very important to modern pool. Most of the top players play all games well enough to complete in many short races.
One short race in each discipline in each session described in No. 2 above.​

4.) One pocket can be unpredictable in time required.
Use the speed one pocket rules as follows: (taken from AKA Trigger's blog) "Here is how it works. There can only be three balls inside the kitchen (head string). When a fourth ball (or more) goes inside the head string, you spot one (or more) balls on the foot spot. You take the balls(s) closest to the end rail first."
​

5.) Can't always watch 5 hours straight for three days in a row.
Sell by the session.​
 
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