Difference in Nickel/Dime tip radius

[genomachino]

I like the dime shape.......

What is better then the other and why do you think that?? Thanks

AD

I had a tip put on by a guy not too long ago. It looked pretty flat to me. Flatter than I like. About like a nickle or maybe a little bit flatter.

I've heard from different cue tip guys that you want to have the Kamui a little flatter. I don't know if they were just told this and believed it or they have actually tried playing with them both ways and didn't see any difference.

And then if you just hit center ball mostly you might not see any difference. Or if his skill level is limited he really can't tell the difference.

The same guy that put the tip on for me was at the poolroom I was at watching me play some $100 sets. I was having trouble moving the cue ball around and missed some shots because I did't get the spin I wanted on the cue ball. Tip was too flat.

I got my sand paper and wood block out and started sanding. He came running over to tell me I shouldn't sand on the Kamui. I told him that I knew that but I couldn't play with it as flat as it was. I knew what I was doing I told him.

It played just fine after that.

When shaping the Kamui I use 400 and take it real easy. Works well. Don't use anything coarser. They will delaminate so I've been told. I've always used 400 grit to shape all my tips. With 400 your fine as far as I can see. At least it doesn't hurt mine.

Every once in a while my tip will seem to be a little unresponsive. it's usually because the tip has flattened out a little bit.

If shaping it a little doesn't do it I put on another great SS kamui tan.

I can't imagine playing in a tournament or gambling and not getting the response you want from the tip and being afraid to sand on it a little to get the shape that works the best for yourself.

Common sense would tell you if you are hitting the ball with english, the flat tip has a smaller area of the leather touching the cue ball.

That's why you can get that touchy, feely English easier with the dime shaped tip. More tip surface touching the cue ball.

Again if you play mostly hitting center ball you wouldn't know the difference and it shouldn't matter as much.

Just my opinion from my experience with the Kamui tip only.

I used other layered tips and they were a mess as far as I was concerned. I couldn't figure out how to keep them right.

Kamui has it right.

 

[ENGLISH!]

FYI, I've revised the diagram and added an additional tip radius, using a more-realistic tip offset (within the miscue limit for all three cases). Here's the revised diagram:

The points of the diagram are:
- tip shape makes a difference in apparent and actual tip offset (and applied spin).
- a rounder tip creates more tip offset (and more spin) for the same cue position.
- a very flat tip will create contact at the edge of the tip if the offset from center is large enough.

Things get a little more complicated if you consider tip compression, but I think the messages above still apply. Concerning friction, I am assuming there is enough to prevent slip (otherwise, there would be a miscue). Therefore, the direction of force will be very predictable, based on how squirt varies with tip offset.

I like the way you state the question. I think the answer is fairly simple: As long as the tip is not too flat, the maximum amount of effective tip offset (and spin) you can achieve will be very nearly the same, regardless of tip shape (e.g., nickel vs. penny vs. dime); however, different tip shapes will require different cue positions to achieve the same amount of spin.

Regards,
Dave

Yes. Good answer to the question. For what it's worth I agree. However, I 'feel' that with a 'flat' tip with the edges filed 'softer' either @ an angle or slightly rounded, there is a wider range of spin available. That may not be the case, but since I am applying the 'edge' there appears to be more selection or perhaps it is just more fine tuned & a bit more controllable. Now for consideration, when drawing the ball the stroke is not parrallel to the intended line & the ball is going to move almost immediately @ an angle to the stroke due to the butt being raised if only by the width of the fingers. What are your thoughts on this Dr_Dan & then maybe we can put this baby to sleep.

 

[joelpope]

What you believe

This thread is pretty typical of what I see far too often on AZ. People will believe what they believe regardless of what empirical data is presented.

Why let the laws of physics interfere with your beliefs?

 

[ctyhntr]

Excellent observation. I notice people will post, inviting others to validate their beliefs, observations, then start arguing and flaming when others disagree.

This thread is pretty typical of what I see far too often on AZ. People will believe what they believe regardless of what empirical data is presented.

Why let the laws of physics interfere with your beliefs?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...since I am applying the 'edge' there appears to be more selection or perhaps it is just more fine tuned & a bit more controllable.

A flat tip with a slightly rounded edge would ensure that you're always hitting that rounded edge when using sidespin. This could make it easier to know precisely where you're hitting the cue ball.

pj
chgo

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

these tools work

get er done

 

[dr_dave]

... when drawing the ball the stroke is not parallel to the intended line & the ball is going to move almost immediately @ an angle to the stroke due to the butt being raised if only by the width of the fingers. What are your thoughts on this

I agree. The cue is almost always elevated some (to clear the rails), and this does create a downward force on the ball (which can cause it to hop). Many people (especially novice players) elevate the cue too much with draw shots. Jacking up also changes the tip offset (or how it is perceived by some), as illustrated in the following diagram from my July '09 BD article:

However, this doesn't change any of the conclusions from the previous diagram and discussion.

For more info, see:

cue elevation effects
draw shot cue elevation effects
physics-based draw shot advice​

Regards,
Dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

I agree. The cue is almost always elevated some (to clear the rails), and this does create a downward force on the ball (which can cause it to hop). Many people (especially novice players) elevate the cue too much with draw shots. Jacking up also changes the tip offset (or how it is perceived by some), as illustrated in the following diagram from my July '09 BD article:

However, this doesn't change any of the conclusions from the previous diagram and discussion.

For more info, see:

cue elevation effects
draw shot cue elevation effects
physics-based draw shot advice​

Regards,
Dave

I disagree with this 9 ball diagram. If you raise the butt without changing the bridge (folcrum) the tip WILL hit lower on the ball. I'm not saying one should do that but that is what would happen. In fact, I suggest one lower the bridge & the butt as low as possible so the cue ball does not bounce or bounces as little as possible. I watched most of Dr_Dave's videos last night & they are knowledgable & informative. He has obviously spent much more time than I have studying the physics & unlike Einstien he CAN throw the curve ball. I'm not trying to get anyone to confirm 'my beliefs' I'm just offering my 2 cent opinion, after 45 yrs. of experience, in hope that it might help someone progress. Sometimes the smallest of things can make a huge difference. You can hit a cue ball with a broom stick or a cue without a tip, but how far off center can you hit it & still have it go where you want it to go. I'd love to see a high speed video of how far off center a tip could hit a cue ball if it had tacky clue on hit. I think, no I believe that friction makes a difference.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I disagree with this 9 ball diagram. If you raise the butt without changing the bridge (folcrum) the tip WILL hit lower on the ball.

The diagram isn't arguing otherwise; it's just showing that the cue ball's "effective center" changes with the angle of the cue.

pj
chgo

 

[MalibuMike]

Hey if you think Kamuii

I had a tip put on by a guy not too long ago. It looked pretty flat to me. Flatter than I like. About like a nickle or maybe a little bit flatter.

I've heard from different cue tip guys that you want to have the Kamui a little flatter. I don't know if they were just told this and believed it or they have actually tried playing with them both ways and didn't see any difference.

And then if you just hit center ball mostly you might not see any difference. Or if his skill level is limited he really can't tell the difference.

The same guy that put the tip on for me was at the poolroom I was at watching me play some $100 sets. I was having trouble moving the cue ball around and missed some shots because I did't get the spin I wanted on the cue ball. Tip was too flat.

I got my sand paper and wood block out and started sanding. He came running over to tell me I shouldn't sand on the Kamui. I told him that I knew that but I couldn't play with it as flat as it was. I knew what I was doing I told him.

It played just fine after that.

When shaping the Kamui I use 400 and take it real easy. Works well. Don't use anything coarser. They will delaminate so I've been told. I've always used 400 grit to shape all my tips. With 400 your fine as far as I can see. At least it doesn't hurt mine.

Every once in a while my tip will seem to be a little unresponsive. it's usually because the tip has flattened out a little bit.

If shaping it a little doesn't do it I put on another great SS kamui tan.

I can't imagine playing in a tournament or gambling and not getting the response you want from the tip and being afraid to sand on it a little to get the shape that works the best for yourself.

Common sense would tell you if you are hitting the ball with english, the flat tip has a smaller area of the leather touching the cue ball.

That's why you can get that touchy, feely English easier with the dime shaped tip. More tip surface touching the cue ball.

Again if you play mostly hitting center ball you wouldn't know the difference and it shouldn't matter as much.

Just my opinion from my experience with the Kamui tip only.

I used other layered tips and they were a mess as far as I was concerned. I couldn't figure out how to keep them right.

Kamui has it right.

Hey if you think Kamui has it right and are good tips, I'll play you some hundred dollar sets!

 

[chefjeff]

(snip) I think the answer is fairly simple: As long as the tip is not too flat, the maximum amount of effective tip offset (and spin) you can achieve will be very nearly the same, regardless of tip shape (e.g., nickel vs. penny vs. dime); however, different tip shapes will require different cue positions to achieve the same amount of spin.

Regards,
Dave

I hate to ask, but is that different cue position had by back-hand english or by front-hand?


Jeff Livingston