water born finish

[Trent]

Tony Zinzola


Quote:
Originally Posted by cueman
What is wrong with using five minute epoxy for ferrules? What and why have you found something else to be better?

Directly from West Systems Website, regarding G5 Epoxy:
Quote:
An easy to use, 2-part resin/hardener system for quick repairs, tooling and general bonding. May be used in spot applications to hold parts in position while standard epoxy bonds cure. Bonds to wood, fiberglass and metal. Not recommended for long-term bonds subject to high loads or moisture. One-to-one mixture, no pumps are required. Cures in 3-5 minutes.

Do you want to trust that to secure the part of your cue that is going to take the most abuse over the course of it's life?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Probably not meant for structural componets like an A joint.

 

[whammo57]

Tony Zinzola


Quote:
Originally Posted by cueman
What is wrong with using five minute epoxy for ferrules? What and why have you found something else to be better?

Directly from West Systems Website, regarding G5 Epoxy:
Quote:
An easy to use, 2-part resin/hardener system for quick repairs, tooling and general bonding. May be used in spot applications to hold parts in position while standard epoxy bonds cure. Bonds to wood, fiberglass and metal. Not recommended for long-term bonds subject to high loads or moisture. One-to-one mixture, no pumps are required. Cures in 3-5 minutes.

Do you want to trust that to secure the part of your cue that is going to take the most abuse over the course of it's life?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Probably not meant for structural componets like an A joint.

OMG!

Do you have a fart stuck in your head..........

you spout the same old shit day after day after day..............

What the hell do you care how others build cues????

give it a rest.........

I will just ignore you from this day forward..................


Sincerely

Kim

 

[cutter]

OMG!

Do you have a fart stuck in your head..........

you spout the same old shit day after day after day..............

What the hell do you care how others build cues????

give it a rest.........

I will just ignore you from this day forward..................


Sincerely

Kim

Actually I do care about how other cuemakers build their cues.
I care because bad cues reflect badly on cuemakers as a whole.
Why buy a custom piece of shit, when you can buy an average
production cue all day long. Use to be custom meant something.
Now it means, I've read a book, viewed a video, and bingo, I'm
a custom cue maker, soon to be master. Just ask me and I'll
self promote myself to greatness. Too many are letting their
fingers type their greatness instead of letting their cues do the
talking.

 

[bruppert]

OMG!

Do you have a fart stuck in your head..........

you spout the same old shit day after day after day..............

What the hell do you care how others build cues????

give it a rest.........

I will just ignore you from this day forward..................


Sincerely

Kim

OK, that was funny. I actually laughed out loud.

 

[Trent]

Actually I do care about how other cuemakers build their cues.
I care because bad cues reflect badly on cuemakers as a whole.
Why buy a custom piece of shit, when you can buy an average
production cue all day long. Use to be custom meant something.
Now it means, I've read a book, viewed a video, and bingo, I'm
a custom cue maker, soon to be master. Just ask me and I'll
self promote myself to greatness. Too many are letting their
fingers type their greatness instead of letting their cues do the
talking.

Great reply thank you Sir.

 

[bruppert]

Actually I do care about how other cuemakers build their cues.
I care because bad cues reflect badly on cuemakers as a whole.
Why buy a custom piece of shit, when you can buy an average
production cue all day long. Use to be custom meant something.
Now it means, I've read a book, viewed a video, and bingo, I'm
a custom cue maker, soon to be master. Just ask me and I'll
self promote myself to greatness. Too many are letting their
fingers type their greatness instead of letting their cues do the
talking.

I agree with the sentiment of what you wrote but what I think what Kim was eluding to is what does anyone care whether someone uses G5, West 207 or Crazy Glue for their finish? Its the end result that matters, right? You can do a French Polish for all I care. Whether I make a cue or buy one, I want it to look nice but more importantly I want it to shoot the way I like. If it meets those two and serves that purpose for many years to come I am more than happy.

 

[cutter]

I agree with the sentiment of what you wrote but what I think what Kim was eluding to is what does anyone care whether someone uses G5, West 207 or Crazy Glue for their finish? Its the end result that matters, right? You can do a French Polish for all I care. Whether I make a cue or buy one, I want it to look nice but more importantly I want it to shoot the way I like. If it meets those two and serves that purpose for many years to come I am more than happy.

A couple of things you pointed out caught my attention. The end results matters. Talk to the old time repair men, ask what they think about some of the mentioned finishes. Many years to come. That's the point, flawed techniques will not serve the purpose for many years to come. I've been around long enough to see alot of hot shots come and go. They are gone, but their cues linger. Think about the giants in the industry. Ernie, Richard, Bill, etc. They got their reputation thru hard work and not thru
bullshit.

 

[scdiveteam]

Actually I do care about how other cuemakers build their cues.
I care because bad cues reflect badly on cuemakers as a whole.
Why buy a custom piece of shit, when you can buy an average
production cue all day long. Use to be custom meant something.
Now it means, I've read a book, viewed a video, and bingo, I'm
a custom cue maker, soon to be master. Just ask me and I'll
self promote myself to greatness. Too many are letting their
fingers type their greatness instead of letting their cues do the
talking.

Hi,

Seem like we have a philosopher here!

This is an open forum and we don't need the Gestapo to ask for our papers with some false altruist sediment. That is evil because it attempts to corrupt the subject with a implied greater good which is actually a subterfuge for the real truth or motivation of the implied sediment. Reflection on cue makers as a whole is a statement that projects collectivism and the epistemology of that philosophy is replete with mysticism not facts. We live in a free country, a republic where we have right to pursue life liberty and happiness.

This is like going to Mayberry. Aunt Bee and Clara were the two biggest busy bodies and liked to mind everybody else's business. It was a great story line but in real life people need to get a life. It is embarrassing to watch it over and over.

Knowledge, skills or talent should be judged by the end user in the case of cues. The player not one who build cue and competes in that market. How one attains any knowledge in any disapline thru mentoring, experimentation, forum participation or use of videos ect. means squat. It implies that anyone who reads a book or watched a video is somehow sub servant and is flawed. What are ridicules point of view. That wold make Chris Hightower, DPK or Diekman bad guys. Not!!

If someone does things that don't fit into the little box of these self proclaimed experts, lets stone them because they dare to disagree. People with vision always expand the box to fit their own boundaries. Those who don't live in the mundane world of mediocracy. At least that is the way I see it. JMO

It would be like wanting to build a cue that was classic that was someone's else's bygone CMs style and then doing it over and over. Once I could see! Where are the creative boundaries in such an undertaking. Very small me thinks!

Very funny to watch this play out over and over especially when no one here is telling any one to change their ways. Never once.

I think this is the part where we say:

1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Matthew 7


Rick G

 

[cutter]

Hi,

This is like going to Mayberry. Aunt Bee and Clara were the two biggest busy bodies and liked to mind everybody else's business. It was a great story line but in real life people need to get a life. It is embarrassing to watch it over and over.

This is an open forum and we don't need the Gestapo to ask for our papers with some false altruist sediment. That is evil because it attempts to corrupt the subject with a implied great good which is acutely a subterfuge fro the real truth or motivation of the implied sediment. Reflection on cue makers as a whole is a statement that projects collectivism and the epistemology of that philosophy is replete with mysticism not facts.

Knowledge, skills or talent should be judged by the end user in the case of cue. How one attains that knowledge, thru mentoring, experimentation, forum participation or use of videos means squat. It implies that anyone who read a book or watched is somehow sub servant and is flawed. What are ridicules point of view.

If someone does things that don't fit into the little box of these self proclaimed experts, lets stone them because they dare to disagree. People with vision always expand the box to fit their own boundaries. Those who don't live in the mundane world of mediocracy. At least that is the way I see it. JMO

It would be like wanting to build a cue that was classic and someone bygone CMs style and then doing it over and over. Once I could see! Where are the creative boundaries in such an undertaking. Very small me thinks!

Very funny to watch this play out over and over especially when no one here is telling any one to change there ways. Never once.

I think this is the part where we say:

1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Matthew 7


Rick G

Ok, so now I will quote you.
I never mentioned your name or quoted your post. You just assumed I was
talking about you. Don't assume to read my mind.
You come to this forum, spewing BS and gathering a following of minions
who wait with baded breath for you next sermon from the lathe.
When someone questions your technique, you respond with more BS. It's not about promoting cue building, it's about promoting you.
Maybe you should look into selling used cars.
Calling me Gestopo is way out of line. I find that a personal insult and attack.
Judge me all you want. Find one post where I promote my product on
this forum. Don't miss the one where I tried to help you with your cnc problem.
Happy cuemaking

 

[scdiveteam]

Ok, so now I will quote you.
I never mentioned your name or quoted your post. You just assumed I was
talking about you. Don't assume to read my mind.
You come to this forum, spewing BS and gathering a following of minions
who wait with baded breath for you next sermon from the lathe.
When someone questions your technique, you respond with more BS. It's not about promoting cue building, it's about promoting you.
Maybe you should look into selling used cars.
Calling me Gestopo is way out of line. I find that a personal insult and attack.
Judge me all you want. Find one post where I promote my product on
this forum. Don't miss the one where I tried to help you with your cnc problem.
Happy cuemaking

Steve,

Fair enough.

What I don't understand is why it bothers you so much as to call me out as a shameless self promoter when anyone who reads a post here has the choice not to read it or not to respond to any opinion buy me or anyone. I read things all of the time that I don't agree with but I keep my fingers off the keyboard out of respect. I only go off here to defend myself when I feel I am attacked. This type of action is always justified IMO.

The way I represent myself is different than the way you do, that's all.

Btw, I thank you for the effort to help me when I was have CNC problems, that was very positive and was truly appreciated. I changed my backlash nuts and re calibrated my back lash setting in Mach Mill and resolved the problem. Your thoughts and suggestions were indeed an example of why this form is a great place to share positive suggestions.

Lets keep it positive.

Rick

 

[cutter]

water finish

Fair enough!
Positive it is.

 

[scdiveteam]

Fair enough!
Positive it is.

Steve,

You da man. You have made my day and all I can say is thank you as I do respect you very much when all is said and done and the truth be known.

Rick

 

[bruppert]

A couple of things you pointed out caught my attention. The end results matters. Talk to the old time repair men, ask what they think about some of the mentioned finishes. Many years to come. That's the point, flawed techniques will not serve the purpose for many years to come. I've been around long enough to see alot of hot shots come and go. They are gone, but their cues linger. Think about the giants in the industry. Ernie, Richard, Bill, etc. They got their reputation thru hard work and not thru
bullshit.

So seriously (I am not being a smart-ass), the 'old-timers' scream "OMG, some goof used G5 to finish this cue, its gonna to be awful trying to scape off .015 of this crap"? I saw just a cue Michael Webb posted taken apart that was made by an 'old-timer' and can't say I liked the way it was made but to each his own. I like talking to the old guys, always have. And especially when I need advice whether its redoing my roof, electrical, laying block, when I worked in machine shops, my car, whatever. But, just because "they have been doing it this way for years" does not mean its the best way. In fact, the one statement that drives me nuts at work is when I ask why and someone reponds with "Because thats the way we've always done it". Maybe in that instance it is the best way but I don't find that to be true very often.... usually has more to do with laziness. If I decide to bike across the state I am not going to get one made by Mike Moulton in the 40's (unless I'm feeling nostalgic). I am going to buy one of the lastest Carbon Fiber bikes. Who's to say which is better but technology moves us forward and we're a little beyond putting on a clear coat from a Krylon spray can.

I don't have any big love for G5 and seriously doubt I'll do any more than try it on one of the those Widows or verneered butts I got to test stuff on. I have G5 and have barely used any of it. I am in no hurry and like a slow setting epoxy for most things, even ferrules. My preference for most things is West Systems.

I may try them but doubt I'll use several methods mentioned like G5, Crazy Glue, specialty epoxies and many others. And I can't explain why, I just know they are not going to be right for me. Right now it will be Ceramithane and/or West 207 but I could change my mind any time. I also want to at least try spraying Hydrocote. I will NOT use an Auto Finish. I don't want the health hazards arounds my family or myself. If thats the 'old-timers' method than I'll just have to settle with being subpar.

So what is the right finish? Please tell me, save me the time and trouble. Again, I am not being a smartass, I'd really kike to know. Maybe G5 is the best but more than likely its not. Whether I use it or not I appreciate that Rick took the time to write that up. The same as I appreciate the time and ideas from all the other people here on AZ. I do not take anyone's word as some golden nugget of wisdom but I do read and listen and pick out the things that I think will help me, no matter what I am doing. And I go much further than just what the pool people put out, I have lots of books and videos on woodworking, inlcuding finishing made by 'old-timers' such as Charles Neil and Frank Klausz. I am here to learn. If you want to bash someone's post, for whatever reason, I'd just like to see some decent evidence, otherwise its just more noise.

So back to the subject. What do you really care what anyone uses? Because you 'might' have to repair it one day? Because you think its degrading the entire craft? If I get a cue 10 years from now that you made I won't really care what finish you used, I am gonig to redo it with what I use. And if the cue is still straight and plays well I certainly don't care if you used Elmers to glue it all together. Some guys are going to make great cues and some are not, just like every other industry on the planet. But, hopefully with the constant exchanges here on AZ everyone will increase their knowledge and the entire industry will benefit. I am just as likely to learn something from the janitor as I am from the CIO, I accept the knowledge regarless of the source.

 

[scdiveteam]

Bruppert,

The only thing you can do is beta test you cues and see how they stand up in the field over the years. The sealing, sanding clear coat and buffing procedures have a million permutations concerning techniques, controls and operator performance.

If you see cue you made many years ago and the are still looking good without and distractions concerning the finish ( other than physical abuse ), then you can breath easy. When you see a dent it is important to observe if you look closely to see if a coating failed or lifted in the transition zone next to the dent. This is the true test.

If you experiment with different products and materials and don't apply them exactly the same with each of their own actions and limitations your downstream data and comparison model will give you skewed feedback.

Your at a tough crossroad in you CM path and this is a critical path decision you are mulling over and there are many fine products to choose.

But that the fun and challenge of Cue making. Nothing comes easy and everything is as important.

Good luck and you have a lot of fine people who are eager to share their experiences and which ever way you go there will always be answers to your questions.

What ever product you choose however make shure you are sensitive to temperatures, flash times, surface prep and don't fail in your method.

Rick

 

[JoeyInCali]

............................

 

[cutter]

Ruppert,
I think you may have miss understood what I meant by checking with the old guys. I meant the guys who have been doing repairs for a long time.
This was not meant to pick on any method or technique. Hell the real old guys used french polish and I've heard stories of Tad shooting the cue
with a can of laquer. Those guys have a wealth of knowedge to factor in to
your decisions. They've seen more techniques and materials than any normal cuemaker would. It's great to be on the cutting edge and more power to those who try it. But in some things, it's not new, it's been tried before and
failed badly. Why repeat history. I think everyone should be evolving their
technique. But if you disregard history, it will repeat it self.

 

[bruppert]

Ruppert,
I think you may have miss understood what I meant by checking with the old guys. I meant the guys who have been doing repairs for a long time.
This was not meant to pick on any method or technique. Hell the real old guys used french polish and I've heard stories of Tad shooting the cue
with a can of laquer. Those guys have a wealth of knowedge to factor in to
your decisions. They've seen more techniques and materials than any normal cuemaker would. It's great to be on the cutting edge and more power to those who try it. But in some things, it's not new, it's been tried before and
failed badly. Why repeat history. I think everyone should be evolving their
technique. But if you disregard history, it will repeat it self.

I wish I did have access to the older Cuebuilders and repair guys. Unfortunately, I don't. I've met Scruggs once, never met Lambros or Phillipe, Tom Trott a few times and shot with him in a Scotch doubles tourn., Bob Frey once, nice guy I ended up hanging around his shop for several hours BSing. I've spoken with Leon Sly a few times on the phone and he was kind enough to invite me to checkout his shop and his CNC but things kept coming up and I have yet to make it down there.... but I definitely will. He's another person thats seems like a really nice guy. The only one I knew really well was Gene Newport but he passed away a couple years ago. He was teaching me cuebuilding but more times than not we ended up in his basement playing One Pocket. Running the machines was not an issue, I was interested in how he did stuff and why. Smart man and very forthcoming with info.

I don't need any help with the machining aspect. I spent 14+ years as a Machinist so I don't even have to think about which way to crank a handle on a mill or lathe to move where I want. If I had to explain it to someone I would though. So what I am interested in is what people use and why. How they do things and the reason behind it. What I can do without is all the bashing, name calling and general BS. Sometimes its funny but mostly not.

I do like to try new ideas but I am certainly not a mad scientist brewing up new concotions in the cellar. I am more of a traditioinalist in most things I do but I don't have the depth of knowledge of cuebuilding a lot of guys here have. Hence the reason I am here. I don't want to reinvent the wheel but if I can improve on it that would be great. And yes, I love to learn from other people's mistakes but oddly I learn more from my own.

Again, if you'd like to share some of your knowledge I am all ears!

 

[dzcues]

But, just because "they have been doing it this way for years" does not mean its the best way. In fact, the one statement that drives me nuts at work is when I ask why and someone reponds with "Because thats the way we've always done it".

This is off topic but your quote brings to mind one of my favorite experiments.

A group of scientists put 5 monkeys in a room with a ladder & a bunch of bananas hanging from the ceiling. One monkey soon dragged the ladder under the bananas & started to climb. At that point, the scientists sprayed all the monkeys with cold water, making sure none climbed the ladder. This was repeated every time one started dragging the ladder under the bananas. Pretty soon, they quit messing with the ladder.

After a few days, the scientists replaced one of the monkeys with a new one who'd never been exposed to the experiment. As soon as he saw the bananas, he started dragging the ladder over. However, the other 5 monkeys quickly prevented him from doing that so they wouldn't get hosed.

Every few days, they replaced another monkey until eventually, all the original monkeys who had been hosed were gone. All the monkeys now in the room had never once been hosed, yet they would not allow a new monkey to move the ladder under the bananas.

They didn't know why they were afraid of the ladder. They were simply doing things the way they'd always been done.

True story.

 

[whammo57]

This is off topic but your quote brings to mind one of my favorite experiments.

A group of scientists put 5 monkeys in a room with a ladder & a bunch of bananas hanging from the ceiling. One monkey soon dragged the ladder under the bananas & started to climb. At that point, the scientists sprayed all the monkeys with cold water, making sure none climbed the ladder. This was repeated every time one started dragging the ladder under the bananas. Pretty soon, they quit messing with the ladder.

After a few days, the scientists replaced one of the monkeys with a new one who'd never been exposed to the experiment. As soon as he saw the bananas, he started dragging the ladder over. However, the other 5 monkeys quickly prevented him from doing that so they wouldn't get hosed.

Every few days, they replaced another monkey until eventually, all the original monkeys who had been hosed were gone. All the monkeys now in the room had never once been hosed, yet they would not allow a new monkey to move the ladder under the bananas.

They didn't know why they were afraid of the ladder. They were simply doing things the way they'd always been done.

True story.

I need some beer and popcorn for what's going to happen now!!!

a quote from the "true story".............

This is a classic example of Mob Mentality- bystanders and outsiders uninvolved with the fight- join in 'just because'.




Kim

 

[bruppert]

This is off topic but your quote brings to mind one of my favorite experiments.

A group of scientists put 5 monkeys in a room with a ladder & a bunch of bananas hanging from the ceiling. One monkey soon dragged the ladder under the bananas & started to climb. At that point, the scientists sprayed all the monkeys with cold water, making sure none climbed the ladder. This was repeated every time one started dragging the ladder under the bananas. Pretty soon, they quit messing with the ladder.

After a few days, the scientists replaced one of the monkeys with a new one who'd never been exposed to the experiment. As soon as he saw the bananas, he started dragging the ladder over. However, the other 5 monkeys quickly prevented him from doing that so they wouldn't get hosed.

Every few days, they replaced another monkey until eventually, all the original monkeys who had been hosed were gone. All the monkeys now in the room had never once been hosed, yet they would not allow a new monkey to move the ladder under the bananas.

They didn't know why they were afraid of the ladder. They were simply doing things the way they'd always been done.

True story.

Cool story. I am sure I'll use it sooner or later at work

*