Longest Extreme Draw Shot Recorded

whitewolf said:
So what do you do - put up another video where the shooter is hitting at a downward angle! Maybe you need to talk to Scott Lee about what 'level 'means for all of these BCA instructors.:rolleyes:
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Let's get something straight, for you seem to be wont of "nailing" people on technicalities:

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO HIT A DRAW SHOT ON A POOL TABLE WITH A "LEVEL" CUE. THE RAIL OF THE TABLE ITSELF GETS IN THE WAY, AND ONE HAS TO SLIGHTLY ANGLE THE CUE OVER IT TO PROVIDE CLEARANCE FOR THE CUE ITSELF, THE HAND GRIPPING IT, AS WELL AS THE NATURAL DOWNWARD ARC OF THE STROKE ITSELF. In order to hit a draw shot with a "level" cue, one would have to remove the rail of the table on the side closest to the body, and stroke over the precipice of the slate itself onto the bed of the table.​

Happy now? Do this meet your definition of "level"?

Yes, in order to hit a draw shot, *of course* one has to angle the cue slightly downwards. But good, accurate draw shots aren't accomplished by "jacking up" (e.g. to 30- or 45-degree angle).

-Sean
 
sfleinen said:
Let's get something straight, for you seem to be wont of "nailing" people on technicalities:

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO HIT A DRAW SHOT ON A POOL TABLE WITH A "LEVEL" CUE. THE RAIL OF THE TABLE ITSELF GETS IN THE WAY, AND ONE HAS TO SLIGHTLY ANGLE THE CUE OVER IT TO PROVIDE CLEARANCE FOR THE CUE ITSELF, THE HAND GRIPPING IT, AS WELL AS THE NATURAL DOWNWARD ARC OF THE STROKE ITSELF. In order to hit a draw shot with a "level" cue, one would have to remove the rail of the table on the side closest to the body, and stroke over the precipice of the slate itself onto the bed of the table.​

Happy now? Do this meet your definition of "level"?

Yes, in order to hit a draw shot, *of course* one has to angle the cue slightly downwards. But good, accurate draw shots aren't accomplished by "jacking up" (e.g. to 30- or 45-degree angle).

-Sean
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Scott Lee taught me the 'low and level' draw shot. Like I said, you should go ask him what all the the BCA instructors are teaching. It is a recipe for miscueing (Fast Larry).

I never did say 'jack up' is the way to go - you are putting words in my mouth. Like you pointing out best way of hitting a draw shot is to hit downward on the cueball.....I agree.

I wasn't trying to 'nail you on technicalities', it was the 'low-and-level' BCA instructors I was trying to bring out of the woodwork. All I did was to point out that the two players in the videos hit downward on the shot and then you got all bent out of shape and went into a defensive tirade.

I guess I expect to see another one of your famous 'I get to have the last words post', but I will let you know in advance that I will ignore it.
 
whitewolf said:
Scott Lee taught me the 'low and level' draw shot. Like I said, you should go ask him what all the the BCA instructors are teaching. It is a recipe for miscueing (Fast Larry).

I never did say 'jack up' is the way to go - you are putting words in my mouth. Like you pointing out best way of hitting a draw shot is to hit downward on the cueball.....I agree.

I wasn't trying to 'nail you on technicalities', it was the 'low-and-level' BCA instructors I was trying to bring out of the woodwork. All I did was to point out that the two players in the videos hit downward on the shot and then you got all bent out of shape and went into a defensive tirade.

I guess I expect to see another one of your famous 'I get to have the last words post', but I will let you know in advance that I will ignore it.
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Dude, it's not a question of getting the last word in, but rather who's putting out the misinformation and innuendos. You *did* write this:

"So what do you do - put up another video where the shooter is hitting at a downward angle!"

As if to imply I was "arguing" about the need for a downward angle, when, in reality, I was addressing the misconception that one needs to jack up for extreme draw shots. (Which *is* a misconception, if you've been around on these boards for any length of time -- which you personally have.) And, I was addressing the "technicality" of the "low and level" cue thing that you seem wont to calling the instructors out on, when common sense would say to anyone that a truly "low and level" cue is impossible on a pool table, and you *know* what the instructors are getting at, but you just want ammunition to sling.

Famous? I guess I should've seen this "famous" whitewolf debate technique coming, where you try to short-circuit the discussion with the classic "don't even bother replying, because I'm taking my marbles and going home" technique when you were called out on something for which you have no further intelligent reply. But hey, you're ignoring this, and it's not like you're going to see it, right?

-Sean
 
Only seen one post so far that mentioned about the distance between CB and OB matters so much. Anyone who has been playing pool for a while can draw at least 1 table length if the CB is 1 diamond away from the OB. And a lot of people can draw 2 table lengths that way.

But you see, that's not drawing 2 table lengths in my opinion.

Drawing 2 table lengths in my opinion is having 8 foot distance between OB and CB and THEN after pocketing the OB, the CB draws back to the place where it started.
 
Impossible?

sfleinen said:
Let's get something straight, for you seem to be wont of "nailing" people on technicalities:

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO HIT A DRAW SHOT ON A POOL TABLE WITH A "LEVEL" CUE. THE RAIL OF THE TABLE ITSELF GETS IN THE WAY, AND ONE HAS TO SLIGHTLY ANGLE THE CUE OVER IT TO PROVIDE CLEARANCE FOR THE CUE ITSELF, THE HAND GRIPPING IT, AS WELL AS THE NATURAL DOWNWARD ARC OF THE STROKE ITSELF. In order to hit a draw shot with a "level" cue, one would have to remove the rail of the table on the side closest to the body, and stroke over the precipice of the slate itself onto the bed of the table.​

Happy now? Do this meet your definition of "level"?

Yes, in order to hit a draw shot, *of course* one has to angle the cue slightly downwards. But good, accurate draw shots aren't accomplished by "jacking up" (e.g. to 30- or 45-degree angle).

-Sean
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What if the cue is in a position where the butt end doesn't reach the rail behind you on your backstroke? Then there's no need to elevate, yes?

You can also avoid the "natural" dip in the stroke with a very low bridge and a back hand that touches the cloth and moves along its surface.

And what about that trick shot where you lay the, resting them on the
cloth? The butt is struck with the heel of the hand.

You'd be perfectly correct if you say that a level draw stroke is RARELY possible...I know I'm being picky here, but my point is there's an exception to pretty much every rule in pool...

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWrchihrkpw
Here's a video I made way back when Superstar Raph questioned my ability to draw the CB while throwing the cue.

As someone previously mentioned, the CB/OB distance is a huge factor when figuring a baseline. Unless all of the videos have the same setup with the same cloth (heck, even the same table, imo), they're all different and can't be compared.
 
I wish I knew where it was at on you tube, but I remember Corey doing a boss draw from the rail long distance on a 2 ball to get shape on the next ball. I believe the cue ball was closer to the rail that he had to jack up a decent amount. Ring a bell with anyone?
 
Donny Lutz said:
What if the cue is in a position where the butt end doesn't reach the rail behind you on your backstroke? Then there's no need to elevate, yes?

You can also avoid the "natural" dip in the stroke with a very low bridge and a back hand that touches the cloth and moves along its surface.

And what about that trick shot where you lay the, resting them on the
cloth? The butt is struck with the heel of the hand.

You'd be perfectly correct if you say that a level draw stroke is RARELY possible...I know I'm being picky here, but my point is there's an exception to pretty much every rule in pool...

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
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Donny:

Ok, I give up on trying to help people past these "technicality" games. I actually was trying to stick up for the instructors, like you, who advocate a "level cue" with the notion that "level" is merely used to denote the difference from jacking up. But you want to be "technical," so here, I'll play along:

1. "Level" means it passes a bubble level test on the non-tapered section of the cue (i.e. the butt).

2. With the rails still attached to the table, it is impossible to have a perfectly level cue for a draw stroke, if a normal-sized playing cue (not a "stubby" or short cue like that which Cuebuddy sells) is gripped in the area that would extend near or over the rail.

3. Even *if* one were to move the cue ball and object ball close together near a corner pocket, such that the object ball would be pocketed by the cue ball, one can still not achieve a "level cue draw shot" with his/her grip hand gripping the cue and resting the hand on the table surface. REASON: the cue has a somewhat conical taper shape from tip to butt, and your grip hand is gripping more or less the widest circumference of the cue. Therefore, the cue will *always* be slightly angled downward, even if the cue and the grip hand itself were resting on the table surface (cloth). Additionally, to avoid getting a burn on your knuckles from the cloth when you delivered the cue -- you have to angle the cue slightly downwards a bit more to give your grip hand clearance from the cloth.

Forgetting the draw stroke for a moment, you *might* be able to execute a perfect center ball hit with a level cue if you gripped the butt in "tea cup" fashion (i.e. tips of fingers on the sides of the cue, with no fingers wrapping underneath the cue), and the bottom-most surface of the cue nearly dragging on the cloth. You'd need the absolute centerline of the cue, perfectly parallel with the floor, to be exactly 1.125 inch from the surface of the table, which is "pushing it" as far as one's ability to grip the cue in any "normal" sense of the word and deliver it.

But a draw stroke? No. Impossible. The centerline of a tapered instrument like a cue forbids keeping the cue "level" on a draw stroke (remember, we're being "technical" and that means it must pass a bubble level test).

There. I hope that's technical enough for ya. You wanted to go there, not me. :grin-devilish:

-Sean
 
sfleinen said:
Donny:


1. "Level" means it passes a bubble level test on the non-tapered section of the cue (i.e. the butt).

2. With the rails still attached to the table, it is impossible to have a perfectly level cue for a draw stroke, if a normal-sized playing cue (not a "stubby" or short cue like that which Cuebuddy sells) is gripped in the area that would extend near or over the rail.
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If you shoot a shot with a level cue the tip of the cue will be lower than the butt. By shooting diagonally across the table you would not have to be above the rail. Easy to cue with draw with a level cue.
 
Tennesseejoe said:
If you shoot a shot with a level cue the tip of the cue will be lower than the butt. By shooting diagonally across the table you would not have to be above the rail. Easy to cue with draw with a level cue.
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Actually, no. Because the cue is a tapered instrument, the centerline of the cue will be angled downwards. You'd need to rest the butt of the cue on the table surface, and reach over with your hand to lift the tip up, so that the centerline of the cue is "level" with the table.

The only way for a "level" cue to be able to hit a draw shot, is if the cue's entire diameter -- from tip to butt -- is the same width as the smaller diameter of the shaft. Only then can you have the centerline of the cue be level with the table surface, *and* strike low on the cue ball.

But then again, these are purely "technical" semantics (pedantics?) for Donny, since he wanted to go there. ;)

-Sean
 
Just for YOU Ray...level means "as level as reasonable for the shot". I have no trouble drawing two table lengths...low, level, loose. Can I draw like Mike? Nope. There are likely not many people on Earth who can stroke the CB like Massey.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

whitewolf said:
So what do you do - put up another video where the shooter is hitting at a downward angle! Maybe you need to talk to Scott Lee about what 'level 'means for all of these BCA instructors.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
 
oldzilla said:
Corey free wheelin on Mika LMAO !

Pretty draw shot on the 4ball, which most of you have seen.
But always worth a look when you know Mika is in the chair, lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_plsd-1TNNw
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Only thing though is that the video is mislabeled. IIRC, Corey dogs the 9 ball and does not actually run out.

A couple of things regarding the MM video posted by the OP. First off, the CB is only a tad over 3 diamonds from the CB which helps the shot since he is not scrubbing as much backspin off the ball as he would if the balls were farther apart. The other thing is he doesn't actually follow through nearly as much as he claims to be doing. Not saying you shouldn't follow through. Just that when I looked at the video it was obvious his cue didn't continue through nearly as much as he said it was.

That said, no knock on Mike. There is no questioning his ability to stroke a cue ball. :grin:

The video taken at Shoreline wasn't so impressive to me. While the balls were farther apart, making it more difficult, it was also apparent he kept putting unwanted left english on every shot. At least I don't think he was doing that intentionally unless doing it so the running english would help maintain the speed to get the ball back up table. But the ball would go dead right after coming back off the foot rail. If stroked properly at the angle he was shooting, the CB would not go to that other side rail. That's a 5/10ths deduction because something isn't going right when that happens. He would draw it even further if he could hit on the vertical center line because he could make contact even lower on the ball.
 
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That Massey shot is cool and all, but I'd rather just stop the CB, and have a really easy safe on the 5.
 
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