Is it possible to throw an object ball? Nope

ENGLISH! said:
...there are more than one(1) force in play when shooting a shot.
1. cue ball momentum that 'pushes' the cut angle
2. cue bal spin that 'throws' the object ball off of the 'cut' angle
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These are actually the same force: friction created by the cue ball's surface rubbing against the object ball's surface.

Number 1, commonly called collision-induced throw, happens when the cue ball's movement causes the rubbing. Number 2, commonly called spin-induced throw, happens when the cue ball's spin causes the rubbing.

Of course they can happen together too, increasing the total rubbing speed. But the rubbing speed can easily become too fast and, like a tire peeling out on the pavement, actually decrease friction, which of course decreases throw and transferred spin. These can be handy things to know when you want to maximize or minimize throw and transferred spin.

pj
chgo
 
One more view of the shot, have a good day i have to go to work. Jeff
 

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jeff olney said:
The object ball can masse slightly, the trick is you have to be on the right side and be the right distance from the object ball, to masse or curve the object ball use have to masse the cue ball. At 3 to 4 feet away object will turn over 2 inches. the shot is unbelievable, i have only showed this shot to 1 person he couldn't believe it. The shot is out there for everyone to see now. Jeff
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I'll bet against it.

pj
chgo
 
jeff olney said:
One more view of the shot, have a good day i have to go to work. Jeff
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Well, I don't disagree with PJ about this shot.
Rather than shoot, I set it up for a fine player who thought he could do it.
( if I shoot it, my unbelief would tend to create a self-fulfilling prophesy )
He couldn't do it.....

I'd love to see it done....I'm cheering for you.

I once offered Vern Elliot $100 to do his impossible bank...but he wouldn't
shoot it for less than $10,000.
 
Are we still debating whether Collision-Induced-Throw is real or not? Wow, I cannot believe the people that take simple physics principles and try to "throw" them out.

This is very, very simple. Objects (all objects no matter how clean or oily, or greasy, or slick) have a friction force when rubbing against another object.

I invite people to read " The Science of Pocket Billiards." It explains in detail what Contact/Collision Induced Throw is, and how it can be applied to making balls by taking into account the amount of compensation needed for this unwanted deviation from the object ball's course.
 
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elvicash said:
Object ball paths curve constantly when banked you will see it in tunica this week i guarentee it
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This is true and can be seen on the "Banks That Don't Go But Do" DVD. I was skeptical when he described it but seeing is believing. I had to play it frame by frame to confirm.

Don't think it's the same as what's being discussed as far as object balls being throwable.

It looks like what happens is... the object ball hits the cushion hard and goes airborne. Just smacking the cushion that hard imparts a lot of sidespin. While airborne, the ball's spinning on a diagonal axis. When it lands, that spin grabs the cloth and turns the ball slightly towards the pocket. Pretty neat shot.
 
As for making an object ball curve, here is an article that describes a test for object ball curving. http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1992-06.pdf

Unlike the tests (one of them above) where you pocket a ball "around" a ball that appears to be barely in the way of the pocket, my test allows essentially no wiggle room.

I have a standing offer of $200 to anyone who can teach me how to legally make the ball curve as in the test. (Off a cushion doesn't count, on a crooked table doesn't count, chalking the balls doesn't count, loading the ball off-center with lead doesn't count, ...)

In the 20 years since that article came out, no one has claimed the prize.
 
elvicash:
Object ball paths curve constantly when banked
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CreeDo:
This is true and can be seen on the "Banks That Don't Go But Do" DVD. I was skeptical when he described it but seeing is believing. I had to play it frame by frame to confirm.

Don't think it's the same as what's being discussed as far as object balls being throwable.

It looks like what happens is... the object ball hits the cushion hard and goes airborne. Just smacking the cushion that hard imparts a lot of sidespin. While airborne, the ball's spinning on a diagonal axis. When it lands, that spin grabs the cloth and turns the ball slightly towards the pocket. Pretty neat shot.
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I believe it's topspin put on the OB by the cushion nose, which contacts the ball slightly above center. In my experience the ball always curves short, never long, is most visible on hard-hit shots, and is the same effect as when bottom spin is put on the CB for a kick shot, but smaller in magnitude. All of these symptoms lead me to the topspin-from-the-cushion theory.

pj
chgo
 
Bob Jewett said:
As for making an object ball curve, here is an article that describes a test for object ball curving. http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1992-06.pdf

Unlike the tests (one of them above) where you pocket a ball "around" a ball that appears to be barely in the way of the pocket, my test allows essentially no wiggle room.

I have a standing offer of $200 to anyone who can teach me how to legally make the ball curve as in the test. (Off a cushion doesn't count, on a crooked table doesn't count, chalking the balls doesn't count, loading the ball off-center with lead doesn't count, ...)

In the 20 years since that article came out, no one has claimed the prize.
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That's a great test. FYI, a physics-based proof and video demos on this topic can also be found here:

Regards,
Dave
 
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The shot has been on youtube for a year or more, there are 6 jeff olney pool shots vids, not sure which one has the shot. Jeff
 
jeff olney said:
The shot has been on youtube for a year or more, there are 6 jeff olney pool shots vids, not sure which one has the shot. Jeff
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I enjoyed all your videos...you got some stroke.
You gave us something to work on...will report back.
 
Bob Jewett said:
The problem is that on the video it is impossible to tell how much the pocket is obstructed. That's why I prefer my test.
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And jacked up produces an automatic jump.....
..I think I could make the shot with no spin.

...but Jeff hits the ball well and knows what he's doing.
Further investigation is mandatory.

Dr Dave's slo-mo would really help
 
mohrt said:
Visiting Ron Vitello this weekend, I learned of something I did not believe at first. Can an object ball be thrown? I've always assumed "of course", as just about any book you read explains how to throw a ball. You put spin on the cueball, it strikes the object ball, transferring the spin and the object ball moves off its natural course. However, Ron claims it is impossible to throw an object ball. :confused:

Firstly, we are not talking about frozen balls, they can be thrown all day. What we are talking about specifically: a cueball striking an object ball, forcing/throwing the object ball along a different path by transferring spin from the cueball to the object ball. This cannot be done, says Ron. You are cutting the ball in every time, either by deflection or subconsiously aiming at a cut.

You don't believe either? Try setting up a shot that requires a slight cut to the pocket. Strike the cueball straight into the object ball, such that the cueball stops *dead*, attempt to "throw" the ball into the pocket. One of two things will happen: the cueball stops dead and the object ball moves straight forward (no throw) missing the pocket, or the cueball drifts/stuns to the side and the object ball goes toward the pocket (you just cut the ball in, no throw involved!)

It still seems odd, but I couldn't prove him wrong.
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I don't know if anyone has mentioned and I'm not going to read 4 pages to find out but,,,seems to me if you strike the OB with spin on the CB, and the CB stops dead, then it is quite possible that you didn't hit the OB like you think. I am assuming that anytime the cueball bounces off something it will bounce off in the direction of the spin, yes? If you put right english on the CB and hit it into a rail or a full rack, it will bounc off to the right. Left english will make the CB bounce off to the left, correct?
SO THEN, in your example, if you put english on the CB and when it hits the OB it stops dead, then in my opinion you didn't hit the OB dead straight, you hit the OB incrementally on it's left, because if you HAD hit the OB dead on with english it cannot stop dead, it has to glance right.

You know what, this thread needs 3cushion input.
 
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