Question about using BHE

[BilliardsAbout]

Nonsense. Besides the fact that it's impossible to do what you describe with a fixed bridge, it wouldn't make any difference anyway.

This is a good fact I'm quoting, and I'd like to address it.

I do not teach a death lock, tight bridge. The loop should should have a bit of space in a closed bridge, the thumb should be tight against the forefinger in an open bridge, but there should be some room for the cue to "breathe".

BHE is a shot I use rarely, however, there is enough play in the loop of a closed bridge to add a dash of english or a lot of english with powerful results.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I don't have access to Photoshop/InDesign at the moment, so I drew you a picture.

Of the three hits you show, only the middle one might make the shot - the other two fail to compensate for squirt. "Parallel" english doesn't work as you've drawn it.

The basic pool principle you don't seem to understand is this: for a given contact point on the CB, only one angle of attack will send the CB on the desired path.

If you were just another aspiring pool player I wouldn't hold your lack of knowledge against you. But you promote yourself as an expert and a teacher, and pass your false "information" on to unsuspecting aspiring pool players under the assumed authority of your position at About.com - and try to spread and defend your false concepts here on AzB.

If trying to correct your expanding disinformation campaign is insulting you, expect more of the same from me.

pj
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Of the three hits you show, only the middle one might make the shot - the other two fail to compensate for squirt. Yet another very basic pool principle you don't seem to understand: "parallel" english doesn't work as you've drawn it.

pj
chgo

Might make what shot? The shot I've recommended in this thread is a ball against the rail one diamond from the pocket, taken with a slight cut angle.

I use a near-level cue when shooting parallel english. I'm sure you or I will have little trouble from squirt and would unconsciously adjust for factors including squirt and deflection, SI throw and CI throw. Most anyone could make the shot with any of the three english methods and three others or more I'd be happy to diagram--but let's not hijack the thread, please.

And my diagram had no object ball. I am explaining the factors affecting the cue ball only. Try BHE and you might be pleasantly surprised with the results.

 

[dr_dave]

What you describe sounds like front-hand english (FHE) rather than back-hand english (BHE).

If people want explanations, illustrations, and video demonstrations of these techniques, they can be found here:

backhand English (BHE) and front-hand English (FHE) resource page​

and if people want more information concerning the "stroke swoop" alternative, check out the videos here:

stroke swoop resource page​

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[8pack]

Watched some of your videos! Awesome stuff! I got some questions if you don't mind giving me a hand. Thanks again for sharing!

Thank you Sir.


[/QUOTE]

( I got some questions if you don't mind giving me a hand)
No tough ones.:smile:
Anthony

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Might make what shot?

The one implied in your drawing - sending the CB on the path that the "parallel english" cue is parallel with. If the CB isn't intended to go in that direction, what is the cue parallel with?

I use a near-level cue when shooting parallel english. I'm sure you or I will have little trouble from squirt

If you try to make shots with your cue parallel to the intended CB path, you'll have lots of trouble.

Most anyone could make the shot with any of the three english methods

Not as they're drawn.

You show the tip hitting the CB in the same spot for all three shots, and the comparison only makes sense if all three shots are supposed to send the CB in the same direction (parallel to the "parallel english" cue). The problem is (as I said before), "for a given contact point on the CB, only one angle of attack will send the CB on the desired path." In this case, that would be the middle version (with the angled cue compensating for squirt).

pj
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

PJ,

I'm not saying you're ducking the BHE point I'm making, but we're starting to obfuscate the obvious here.

Put the object ball three inches from a pocket and the cue ball three inches from the object ball along the same (full hit) aim line. Any one of my three strokes can cinch that object ball. The BHE is indeed a different angle of attack on the object ball that suits several needs:

1. Pivot english is very hard for the average player to accomplish

2. Parallel english comes with squirt issues as you mentioned

I'm not citing adjustments from squirt, cue ball curve and speed. I'm saying that just as a cue may be pivoted on an easy shot to adjust the attack angle for shape purposes, well, in the same way, some players will use a BHE swipe to adjust the angle for cue ball shape, and as a side benefit, they get an angle of attack providing minimal squirt.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

BilliardsAbout:
Put the object ball three inches from a pocket and the cue ball three inches from the object ball

WTF? Why not put the OB on the lip of the pocket and freeze the CB to it? Then you can argue that a golf swing with a baseball bat works.

Until you start making enough sense to talk to, I can only repeat: your "theories" are nonsense.

pj
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

PJ,

You keep saying there is only one way to apply a certain amount of english, say one tip of right english, at one angle correctly to a given shot. Not so.

Some fine players, very top players, use BHE with a swipe from the shooting hand. I agree with you that parallel english is fraught with difficulty. Admit that pivot english or what you've called back hand english in the past has similar difficulties.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You keep saying there is only one way to apply a certain amount of english, say one tip of right english, at one angle correctly to a given shot. Not so.

Easy enough for you to prove - do it on video for us. If you're willing I'll describe the test for you.

Some fine players, very top players, use BHE with a swipe from the shooting hand.

I'd say very few of them. And they're ill-advised - maybe they've read your articles.

I agree with you that parallel english is fraught with difficulty.

The difficulty is that it doesn't exist. "Parallel" english is a myth.

Admit that pivot english or what you've called back hand english in the past has similar difficulties.

Admit that, yet again, you don't know what you're saying.

Backhand english is a way to adjust your aim for squirt. "Parallel" english is a misnomer for doing the same thing by feel. It's a misnomer because the resulting cue angle is not parallel with anything. The results of both techniques must be the same (aim compensated the same way for squirt) or the shot won't go.

"Swooping" backhand english is simply another way to apply backhand english. Functionally they're the same - the tip ends up hitting the same tip/CB contact point from the same angle - or the shot won't go. Substituting a swooping back hand to achieve the same cue angle you get with a straight stroke only complicates the way you get to that common objective.

At risk of repeating myself: Your fantasy that you can stroke the cue so that the whole thing moves forward at an angle to the CB is not only impossible to do, it's irrelevant (because it wouldn't do what you say anyway) and it's misleading to developing players.

Now you've added your fantasy of "parallel" english to the conversation. We're getting farther from reality rather than closer to it.

pj
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

1. You're hijacking yet another thread.

2. You're using ad hominen attacks again and being ugly and rude. I'm always polite with you.

3. We're talking about different shots. I'm talking about shape on the cue ball. There are many, many ways to twist or pivot a cue and pocket an object ball, especially, of course, if it's close to a pocket.

4. Parallel english is a real technique. I realize you suggest moving either the back hand or the bridge to pivot the cue. Most players struggle with pivoting, it's extremely hard to judge shape with, and I'm certain you and I keep mainly to a dash of english here, a quarter-tip there.

5. Swooping backhand english IS different functionally. A cue that is moving mostly forward with a scant amount of side pivoting through the bridge hand is different than turning the cue diagonal and stroking "that way". You'd know the difference if you've tried the motion.

6. Your lack of trying the motion shows disrespect for people from Greenleaf to Reyes who use/used swooping BHE. You're being disrespectful to me and to yourself. The whole cue moving forward at an angle to the CB IS what happens when you go forward quickly and move VERY slightly with the backhand (we're talking a tip of english for goodness' sake against coming forward, usually with a medium to fast stroke) rather than your proposal of twisting a cue than stroking which puts far more emphasis on the diagonal than the straight forward motion.

Everyone's a swooping BHE armchair critic until they try it and go, "Oh!" Do the two differerent motions slowly and see how BHE keeps the cue stick closer to center ball alignment where it runs through the bridge hand.

 

[8pack]

Easy enough for you to prove - do it on video for us. If you're willing I'll describe the test for you.


I'd say very few of them. And they're ill-advised - maybe they've read your articles.


The difficulty is that it doesn't exist. "Parallel" english is a myth.


Admit that, yet again, you don't know what you're saying.

Backhand english is a way to adjust your aim for squirt. "Parallel" english is a misnomer for doing the same thing by feel. It's a misnomer because the resulting cue angle is not parallel with anything. The results of both techniques must be the same (aim compensated the same way for squirt) or the shot won't go.

"Swooping" backhand english is simply another way to apply backhand english. Functionally they're the same - the tip ends up hitting the same tip/CB contact point from the same angle - or the shot won't go. Substituting a swooping back hand to achieve the same cue angle you get with a straight stroke only complicates the way you get to that common objective.

At risk of repeating myself: Your fantasy that you can stroke the cue so that the whole thing moves forward at an angle to the CB is not only impossible to do, it's irrelevant (because it wouldn't do what you say anyway) and it's misleading to developing players.

Now you've added your fantasy of "parallel" english to the conversation. We're getting farther from reality rather than closer to it.

pj
chgo

Are you saying the swiping method and bhe (aim normal then pivot)are the same?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Are you saying the swiping method and bhe (aim normal then pivot)are the same?

If they produce the same spin and speed, then they must hit the CB in the same way. This is true no matter how you stroke, swing, swoop, swipe, swat, or otherwise move your cue.

Another way to put it: you can't do anything with a swoop stroke that can't be done with a straight stroke.

So why swoop?

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

BilliardsAbout:
Your lack of trying the motion shows disrespect

Your assumption that I haven't tried it is yet another example of things you don't know.

Your belief that it must be tried in order to know it can't possibly do what you fantasize is another.

pj
chgo

 

[8pack]

If they produce the same spin and speed, then they must hit the CB in the same way. This is true no matter how you stroke, swing, swoop, swipe, swat, or otherwise move your cue.

Another way to put it: you can't do anything with a swoop stroke that can't be done with a straight stroke.

So why swoop?pj
chgo

So now your saying the swiping method is just wrong?
Until you get good at it, stop talking about something you know nothing about.

 

[Mikjary]

So now your saying the swiping method is just wrong?
Until you get good at it, stop talking about something you know nothing about.

Zackley!

Best,
Mike

 

[Patrick Johnson]

So now your saying the swiping method is just wrong?

I thought I made that clear from the beginning (and I've been saying it for years). It's poor technique.

...stop talking about something you know nothing about.

You first.

pj
chgo

 

[8pack]

I thought I made that clear from the beginning (and I've been saying it for years). It's poor technique.


You first.

pj
chgo

Take note PJ we all do things different and it will always be and you Sir are ignorant of that.

 

[8pack]

I thought I made that clear from the beginning (and I've been saying it for years). It's poor technique.


You first.

pj
chgo

.......................

 

[Mr. Wilson]

Guys, I've made it clear several times now.

If you intend to participate in aiming threads, you will be expected to add constructively to the conversation or stay out of it.
If you want to start your own thread expressing the reasons you disagree with whatever principal, do so however it will be kept civil at all times.

Patric needs a break.

If people don't start being more civil, the length of these breaks will take a dramatic increase.