What's Good About A Good Stroke?
- Thread starter Patrick Johnson
- Start date
Of little importance; trivial.
"another bad analogy" isn't *petty? but not playing golf, tennis or pool is? hmmm, interesting ...
*
Of little importance; trivial.
(of behavior) Characterized by an undue concern for trivial matters, esp. in a small-minded or spiteful way.
"another bad analogy" isn't *petty? but not playing golf, tennis or pool is? hmmm, interesting ...
*
Of little importance; trivial.
(of behavior) Characterized by an undue concern for trivial matters, esp. in a small-minded or spiteful way.
there's more than one way to maneuver a pool cue
I'm suggesting there's more than one way to maneuver* a pool cue. I'm aware of both ways, and offering an alternative if anyone wants to choose. In a certain sense, my personal approach can be perceived to be arbitrary and didactic, if you're satisfied with your "stroke", then a guess it's a mute point.
(Rafael Martinez has one of the most powerful strokes in the history of pool and he was trained with a hammer to develop proper wrist motion)
*ma·neu·ver/məˈno͞ovər/
Noun:
A movement or series of moves requiring skill and care: "jumps and other daring maneuvers".
Verb:
Perform or cause to perform a movement or series of moves requiring skill and care: "the truck was unable to maneuver comfortably".
I'm suggesting there's more than one way to maneuver* a pool cue. I'm aware of both ways, and offering an alternative if anyone wants to choose. In a certain sense, my personal approach can be perceived to be arbitrary and didactic, if you're satisfied with your "stroke", then a guess it's a mute point.
(Rafael Martinez has one of the most powerful strokes in the history of pool and he was trained with a hammer to develop proper wrist motion)
*ma·neu·ver/məˈno͞ovər/
Noun:
A movement or series of moves requiring skill and care: "jumps and other daring maneuvers".
Verb:
Perform or cause to perform a movement or series of moves requiring skill and care: "the truck was unable to maneuver comfortably".
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even better, use it like a "spear"
Thank you....we've all wanted to do that a time or two I'm sure!:wink: Or even better, use it like a "spear".
Thank you....we've all wanted to do that a time or two I'm sure!:wink: Or even better, use it like a "spear".
The hammer analogy works fine for me. I swing one every day and understand the control in the wrist is everything. A straight measured backswing develops an accurate forward stroke. Any deviation or untimed breaking of the wrist and grip pressure causes hitting the wrong nail (thumb). 
I teach the new guys how to swing a hammer when they start. I shave off years of dents in the wood and extra hammer blows. The analogy is, like many other movements, not a direct comparison to a pool stroke. Of course it's not! The controlled movement is and why are we nit picking?
This NIT picking when an advanced player posts is becoming counter productive. If you feel like an OCD moment and have to post to save the minions from another internet fallacy, switch over to NPR. Keep posting, CJ. There are lots of lurkers here trying to understand your lessons before we interrupt with our expert opinions.
Best,
Mike
I teach the new guys how to swing a hammer when they start. I shave off years of dents in the wood and extra hammer blows. The analogy is, like many other movements, not a direct comparison to a pool stroke. Of course it's not! The controlled movement is and why are we nit picking?
This NIT picking when an advanced player posts is becoming counter productive. If you feel like an OCD moment and have to post to save the minions from another internet fallacy, switch over to NPR. Keep posting, CJ. There are lots of lurkers here trying to understand your lessons before we interrupt with our expert opinions.
Best,
Mike
A hammer has the majority of its wieght in a mass of metal at the end of a arc. A pool cue is slid along one point on a bridge pivot with it weight distributed between two points, bridge pivot, and grip pivot.
Nothing alike in the two motions.
Also, in hammering you are going for using necessary power to drive a certain size nail in a certain type of material. A framing hammer is not the same as a finishing hammer. Trying framing a house with a finishing hammer. The power comes more from the hammer than the person.
Who came first the pro or the amatuer? What makes someone a pro really has little to do with a high degree of skill level or factual knowledge about shotmaking. If winning money is the criteria for being considered a pro, then I'm one. I've won a few bucks winning some tourney's.
Sorry for nit picking.
Nothing alike in the two motions.
Also, in hammering you are going for using necessary power to drive a certain size nail in a certain type of material. A framing hammer is not the same as a finishing hammer. Trying framing a house with a finishing hammer. The power comes more from the hammer than the person.
Who came first the pro or the amatuer? What makes someone a pro really has little to do with a high degree of skill level or factual knowledge about shotmaking. If winning money is the criteria for being considered a pro, then I'm one. I've won a few bucks winning some tourney's.
Sorry for nit picking.
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Greg,
Almost all of what you say is true. However the wrist only moves in a finite number of ways. The axis of movement in CJ's hammer analyogy is similiar. I would modify it to say holding the hammer 'up side down' & 'stroking' a nail into the bottom side of a table. That puts the back & forth emphasis of motion in better perspective. It can be a small hammer and a small nail. It can even be a 19 oz. hammer. Maybe an even better anaylogy would be to hold the hammer backwards & stroke a nail into the bottom a base board. Remember these analogies are not meant to be exact. I know that the intended force of a hammer is different due the hammer head being attached 90* to the handle. Analogies are meant to relay a different association. The only exact 'analogy' to stroking a cue would be stroking a cue.:wink:
Best Regards,
Almost all of what you say is true. However the wrist only moves in a finite number of ways. The axis of movement in CJ's hammer analyogy is similiar. I would modify it to say holding the hammer 'up side down' & 'stroking' a nail into the bottom side of a table. That puts the back & forth emphasis of motion in better perspective. It can be a small hammer and a small nail. It can even be a 19 oz. hammer. Maybe an even better anaylogy would be to hold the hammer backwards & stroke a nail into the bottom a base board. Remember these analogies are not meant to be exact. I know that the intended force of a hammer is different due the hammer head being attached 90* to the handle. Analogies are meant to relay a different association. The only exact 'analogy' to stroking a cue would be stroking a cue.:wink:
Best Regards,
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???
I didn't disagree with you about the hammer thing, it's the golf/tennis swing vs. pool stroke analogy I have a problem with. In fact, I teach my flycasting students to imagine hammering a nail into a wall when I am trying to get across the feeling of the forward stroke.
I have also used a violin bow stroke as a comparison. It is much more like a pool stroke in motion than the flycasting stroke.
Do you fly fish or play the violin? If not, might I ask, "So, you don't fly fish or play the violin, and you're an expert on knowing how things work?"
Analogies using other physical activities have a useful but limited value in a discussion on what makes for a quality pool stroke. Sooner or later, you have to pull apart the actual stroke mechanics. Can you describe your own stroke from beginning to end, without resorting to any analogy at all? I'd be very interested in reading about it if you can.
Thank you....we've all wanted to do that a time or two I'm sure!:wink: Or even better, use it like a "spear".
CJ,
I agree with both the hammer & spear analogies. It does not 'matter what the definition of is....is'.
The sprear or javlin throw is similiar but in reverse, as is the hammer analogy, as the intended direction of force is in the opposite direction of delivering the cue, but I agree the wrist movement is analogious.
Regards,
Really? How is that? It will rotate, which is a circle. A circle is infinite. On the other hand, the elbow joint does move in a finite number of planes.
"Another bad analogy" directly addressed what you said. Bringing up irrelevant "credentials" of mine (which you know little about) was a petty attempt to belittle my qualifications to say anything about it.
If I had said you don't seem to have enough education to know a good analogy from a bad one, that would have been a petty attempt to belittle your qualifications (which I know little about).
See the difference?
Anyway, 'nuff said - back on topic.
pj
chgo
The hammer analogy works fine for me. I swing one every day and understand the control in the wrist is everything. A straight measured backswing develops an accurate forward stroke. Any deviation or untimed breaking of the wrist and grip pressure causes hitting the wrong nail (thumb).
I teach the new guys how to swing a hammer when they start. I shave off years of dents in the wood and extra hammer blows. The analogy is, like many other movements, not a direct comparison to a pool stroke. Of course it's not! The controlled movement is and why are we nit picking?
This NIT picking when an advanced player posts is becoming counter productive. If you feel like an OCD moment and have to post to save the minions from another internet fallacy, switch over to NPR. Keep posting, CJ. There are lots of lurkers here trying to understand your lessons before we interrupt with our expert opinions.
Best,
Mike
Nice post Mike!
A violin bow stroke is a pretty good comparison of the biomechanics involved. I'll remember that; thanks.
pj
chgo
I told myself I wouldn't but I did :embarrassed2:
Anyway.
Wrist Muscles
The wrist contains six muscles: extensor carpi radialis brevis, extensor carpi radialis longus, extensor carpi ulnaris, flexor carpi radialis, flexor carpi ulnaris and abductor pollicis longus. Both the extensor brevis and extensor longus muscles are located on the bottom of the wrist and stretch along the inside of your forearm to the elbow. The extensor ulnaris muscle is located on the outside top of the wrist and extends along the top of your forearm to the elbow. The flexor radialis muscle runs along the bottom of your forearm to the elbow and connects near the base of the thumb. The flexor ulnaris muscle originates at the base of the hand, below your small finger, and stretches along the outside bottom of your forearm to the elbow. Lastly, the abductor longus muscle forms on the bottom of the hand's base, curls around the wrist to the top of your forearm and stretches to the elbow.
More info on the hand
http://www.livestrong.com/article/87255-muscles-control-human-hand/
Anyway.
Wrist Muscles
The wrist contains six muscles: extensor carpi radialis brevis, extensor carpi radialis longus, extensor carpi ulnaris, flexor carpi radialis, flexor carpi ulnaris and abductor pollicis longus. Both the extensor brevis and extensor longus muscles are located on the bottom of the wrist and stretch along the inside of your forearm to the elbow. The extensor ulnaris muscle is located on the outside top of the wrist and extends along the top of your forearm to the elbow. The flexor radialis muscle runs along the bottom of your forearm to the elbow and connects near the base of the thumb. The flexor ulnaris muscle originates at the base of the hand, below your small finger, and stretches along the outside bottom of your forearm to the elbow. Lastly, the abductor longus muscle forms on the bottom of the hand's base, curls around the wrist to the top of your forearm and stretches to the elbow.
More info on the hand
http://www.livestrong.com/article/87255-muscles-control-human-hand/
Sloppy,
I totally agree about the violin 'stroke' but some will argue that it is in the wrong direction, as a pool cue is not stroked 'across' one's chin & eyes but between the eyes in line with the chin or in line with the chin under the dominant eye. How can 'stroking' a violin be anything 'like' 'stroking' a pool cue.
Interestingly, I also was going to ask if anyone could do an anatomical step by step description of a 'perfect' cue stroke. But I decided against doing so as I saw it as bait for disagreement. Your request of CJ to do so for 'CJ's stroke' is much more productive & a bit less inviting for diagreement.
I 2nd. both your point(s) & your request.
Regards,
Rick...Of course you would! Nice to see you finally "appraising" your personal skill level...NOVICE! :killingme: Yet you still feel obligated to pontificate (that's you using all the "big" words in your posts) on every subject, in every thread, in almost every forum. I know a heck of a lot of highly skilled 'amateur' players, who would not be considered novices by anyone on Earth (outside of you perhaps). Some of them have been drafted by the Bonus Ball professional league! Pretty sure it is their intent NOT to have any novice players in their league! LOL
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
The hammer analogy works fine for me. I swing one every day and understand the control in the wrist is everything. A straight measured backswing develops an accurate forward stroke. Any deviation or untimed breaking of the wrist and grip pressure causes hitting the wrong nail (thumb).
I teach the new guys how to swing a hammer when they start. I shave off years of dents in the wood and extra hammer blows. The analogy is, like many other movements, not a direct comparison to a pool stroke. Of course it's not! The controlled movement is and why are we nit picking?
This NIT picking when an advanced player posts is becoming counter productive. If you feel like an OCD moment and have to post to save the minions from another internet fallacy, switch over to NPR. Keep posting, CJ. There are lots of lurkers here trying to understand your lessons before we interrupt with our expert opinions.
Best,
Mike
You know, Mike, if you want a private lesson with CJ, there is always the PM function. You may think it is nitpicking, others don't. And yours and CJ's opinion is not the only one that counts on here. There are about 10,000 that count. (minus 2 or 3 totally irrelevant people on here
) (and I don't mean you)