WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

DTL said:
John talks about the wrist issue on TAR Podcast #24 @ minute 36:01.
Click to expand...

Here's the direct link to that discussion and demonstration – it's super-interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=u8KsVm9ePlk#t=2163s

John is really good at explaining things. Some select quotes:
  1. "If I'm holding the cue loose, it will run straight on gravity. Why take your muscles and micro-manage it and try to steer it?"
  2. "It's a light stick, it'll go straight if you don't get your muscles in the way."
  3. "When you take a 19oz cue and get it moving, that's what draws the ball, not your hand muscles."
  4. "Take a cue on a string, and drop it – it will swing straighter than any human being can do it in their hand."
  5. "There's no reason to death grip it, and squeeze."
  6. "It helps my speed control, holding my cue in my fingertips, very loose."
  7. "I would agree with holding it loose." - Corey

John at address:
fa175.png
 
DeadStick...Thanks for the link! Hmmm, those quotes sure seem to go hand-in-hand with what I've saying throughout these threads, and contradict what CJ is saying. What's up with that? :eek: :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

DeadStick said:
Here's the direct link to that discussion and demonstration – it's super-interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=u8KsVm9ePlk#t=2163s

John is really good at explaining things. Some select quotes:
  1. "If I'm holding the cue loose, it will run straight on gravity. Why take your muscles and micro-manage it and try to steer it?"
  2. "It's a light stick, it'll go straight if you don't get your muscles in the way."
  3. "When you take a 19oz cue and get it moving, that's what draws the ball, not your hand muscles."
  4. "Take a cue on a string, and drop it – it will swing straighter than any human being can do it in their hand."
  5. "There's no reason to death grip it, and squeeze."
  6. "It helps my speed control, holding my cue in my fingertips, very loose."
  7. "I would agree with holding it loose." - Corey

John at address:
fa175.png
Click to expand...
 
This is how I see it, Scott lee, etc teaches and talks good all around fundamentals and nothing more where as CJ teaches and talks techniques, not an easy thing to describe in a post. I believe just good fundamentals will not get you to the top of the mountain, you need good fundamentals plus certain added techniques to get there. The hit the wall gang cannot relate to this and blow off CJ wisdom and experience, bad move on their part.
 
Cornerman said:
I'm trying to get this and the idea of creating a slot to keep the cue stroke straight.

Whey you say "driving a nail with a hammer," the motions are so vastly different that I almost think you really mean you're using a reverse hammer fist. Is that what you mean?

And if you go forward and downward, is that what you attempt to do, or is this what is really happening (because wouldn't the tip then fly upwards?).

In this video at 2 minutes, there's a nice side view of you stroking. Other than your index finger doing something different than others, I don't see your wrist moving down, up or hammering. And I don't think your movement is so subtle that the video can't catch it, but I could be wrong. It looks like your wrist is still. {edit: I think I'm wrong about the wrist and that the video can't catch it. I just watched the shot 20 times and sometimes there's obvious wrist motion and other times it looks dead still. I think the video and playback can't show it consistently}

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4UVcdfiBSY#t=2m

Freddie <~~~ looking to keep my stroke locked in a slot
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It appears to me that, while his wrist doesn't end up in a position of ulnar deviation compared to a neutral wrist position, it does have more ulnar deviation than it did at the start of the stroke where his wrist began in a position of slight radial deviation. Given where he holds his cue, the only way he can possibly keep it level is to either let the cue pivot in his hand, or allow ulnar deviation at his wrist, which is what I think he does.

As I stated before, I think wrist movement can be a big factor in a powerful stroke. The question I see is, is that true because the movement creates increased speed, or is it necessary to allow the cue to remain level and contact the CB where desired. FOr some, I think they grip the cue light enough that there fingers are just a pivot point that the butt of the cue pivots in, allowing it to remain level. For those that have more of a grip on the cue, it is probably necessary to perform some ulnar deviation of the wrist during the stroke to keep the cue level. The wrist can not stay locked if you are gripping the cue and not change the plane of the cue, thus the wrist motion.

I have played with both of these a lot, and find both work well when done right. The problem for me has been that I have a tendency tp over gtip the cue when trying to force the ulnar deviation. If I let it occur naturally, I think it would work much better. I am currently trying to leave my wrist locked, but allow the cue to pivot and stay on line with my v style grip that I began doing some time ago in an effort to decrease the pressure I put on the cue. Very interesting topic. It seems that both have the potential to work if done correctly as they accomplish the same thing (keeping the cue level). I am not sure, however, if moving the wrist can actually create more power.
 
DTL said:
Some pics:


John Schmidt with forearm/upper arm at 90 degrees and wrist pre-cocked backward (ulnar deviated) and CJ with grip hand more forward and wrist pre-cocked forward (radial deviated).

John talks about the wrist issue on TAR Podcast #24 @ minute 36:01. He says he cocks it "forward" but in my mind he's cocking it backward, see pics.
Click to expand...

Why am I even here in this thread?
Dunno.

But you can't provide evidence about how CJ holds his cue when he's doing a jacked up trick shot. You'll want to get a pic of him shooting normally.
 
..I don't advise some of you to try this at home without a doctor present.

Mikjary said:
Look at this view. His wrist does more down and forward movement before his elbow drops. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4UVcdfiBSY&feature=player_detailpage#t=214s

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

This technique was developed when the Game was "Life or Death", if I didn't win EVERY time the consequences were HARSH, and my gambling record speaks for its self (Voted Top Three Money Players of the 20th Century -'Billiard Digest'). Read more about my gamling/road days at this link 'Confessions of a Pool Hustler' and 'Life of Wiley' by New York Sports Writer Michael Geffner

This is a POWERFUL martial arts movement used with swords, filipino fighting sticks, and even open hand attacks...it's the key to the most deadly "two inch punch".

I'm just sharing how I do things because through the years MANY people have ask what my "secret move" is to creating such effortless power and accuracy. Now I'm explaining it, however if something isn't "normal" and conventional it seems to be controversial.

If this doesn't make sense to you and your game, please just put it "on a shelf", maybe you can take it back down some day. Everyone is free to develp their own way of player pocket billiards. This is a Game of self expression and creativety, there's no one way to play, like there's no "one way to paint" or play music.

I"m NOT trying to convince anyone to use this particular technique, quite honestly you have to have a lot of hand strenth to execute the motion and most of you would require hand stregthening excersises.
Now, continue with caution.....I don't advise some of you (that use a limp wrist) to try this at home without a doctor present. :wink:

Let's try this for those of you that will actually try a shot on the pool table (this doesn't work on the video games).

Elevate your Pool Cue OVER another ball and hit down on the cue ball (with an OPEN bridge) to draw the ball, OR just "jack up" and draw a 3' shot back a few feet. Notice, you have to press down on your hand WITH YOUR CUE to keep it from "popping up" and it keeps your cue in place (on your open bridge) until the shot is complete.

Notice what's happening to your right hand (if you're right handed). Notice how your wist is moving to make this shot and draw the cue ball back.

Now you can start to understand what I'm talking about and the technique I USE to create the slot/groove, and how my wrists/front fingers PUSH down going through the Cue Ball, causing the butt to come up slightly and a powerful "lever action" to be utilized. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
It isn't a hustling/gambling game these days.

Pay Up Sucker said:
This is how I see it, Scott lee, etc teaches and talks good all around fundamentals and nothing more where as CJ teaches and talks techniques, not an easy thing to describe in a post. I believe just good fundamentals will not get you to the top of the mountain, you need good fundamentals plus certain added techniques to get there. The hit the wall gang cannot relate to this and blow off CJ wisdom and experience, bad move on their part.
Click to expand...

You are correct and good fundamentals get you to a certain level and stop. You'll notice that the Top Players all do "something", but you just can't "put your finger on it". They just do something that makes them better than the ones with just "good fundamentals", MUCH BETTER.

I give guys with great fundamentals the 5/7 playing 9 ball or 6/8 playing 10 Ball. How is this possible? Before I would NEVER tell, but my gambling days are over and I"m on a different path, as is the entire sport of pocket billiards.

It isn't a hustling/gambling game these days. It's starting to evolve into something else and THAT'S what I'm most interested in NOW. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
We all do things like this differently (there's 3 ways to do it imho)

CreeDo said:
Why am I even here in this thread?
Dunno.

But you can't provide evidence about how CJ holds his cue when he's doing a jacked up trick shot. You'll want to get a pic of him shooting normally.
Click to expand...

There's no evidence, I already said it's very difficult to detect with the human eye. If other players could see it happening it would have come out long ago. The truth of the matter is NO ONE can see what the top players are really doing because it's in their "Feel" and that's located in their hands. The motion through the cue ball is disguised visually.

We all do things like this differently (there's 3 ways to do it imho), and I"m sharing how I do it so other players can use it if they choose. If I didn't tell how I do it no one would ever figure it out, it's as simple as that. 'The Game is the Teacher'.
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
This technique was developed when the Game was "Life or Death", if I didn't win EVERY time the consequences were HARSH, and my gambling record speaks for its self (Voted Top Three Money Players of the 20th Century -'Billiard Digest'). Read more about my gamling/road days at this link 'Confessions of a Pool Hustler' and 'Life of Wiley' by New York Sports Writer Michael Geffner

This is a POWERFUL martial arts movement used with swords, filipino fighting sticks, and even open hand attacks...it's the key to the most deadly "two inch punch".

I'm just sharing how I do things because through the years MANY people have ask what my "secret move" is to creating such effortless power and accuracy. Now I'm explaining it, however if something isn't "normal" and conventional it seems to be controversial.
If this doesn't make sense to you and your game, please just put it "on a shelf", maybe you can take it back down some day. Everyone is free to develp their own way of player pocket billiards. This is a Game of self expression and creativety, there's no one way to play, like there's no "one way to paint" or play music.

I"m NOT trying to convince anyone to use this particular technique, quite honestly you have to have a lot of hand strenth to execute the motion and most of you would require hand stregthening excersises.
Now, continue with caution.....I don't advise some of you (that use a limp wrist) to try this at home without a doctor present. :wink:

Let's try this for those of you that will actually try a shot on the pool table (this doesn't work on the video games).

Elevate your Pool Cue OVER another ball and hit down on the cue ball (with an OPEN bridge) to draw the ball, OR just "jack up" and draw a 3' shot back a few feet. Notice, you have to press down on your hand WITH YOUR CUE to keep it from "popping up" and it keeps your cue in place (on your open bridge) until the shot is complete.

Notice what's happening to your right hand (if you're right handed). Notice how your wist is moving to make this shot and draw the cue ball back.

Now you can start to understand what I'm talking about and the technique I USE to create the slot/groove, and how my wrists/front fingers PUSH down going through the Cue Ball, causing the butt to come up slightly and a powerful "lever action" to be utilized. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Click to expand...

I knew a guy in NJ back in the 60's that would skid almost every shot and used a slip stroke that could run a 100 balls fron time to time. Even played in several World straight pool events.
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
My uncocking action is a smooth transition that occurs much like the hammer motion. My arm moves at a slower, consistant speed then the wrist kicks in right before contact.

There is no "snapping motions" in my delivery, and I can produce enough power to draw the ball an impressive distance with just the wrist movement and very little arm speed at all.
Click to expand...

I agree with you CJ, that's the way I deliver the cue. Likewise its a smooth transition & no snapping motion. I think some feel they snap but a smooth transition is likely the reason. A deliberate snap IMO is not desirable or as effective as its a forced motion.

Of course the silent killer is starting back to fast which leads to starting forward to fast. That is the major reason for increased tension in the grip & arm & inhibits a smooth delivery.

Rod
 
I can use a "Slip Stroke" with this technique as well.

measureman said:
I knew a guy in NJ back in the 60's that would skid almost every shot and used a slip stroke that could run a 100 balls fron time to time. Even played in several World straight pool events.
Click to expand...

Yes, I can use a "Slip Stroke" with this technique as well. Don't be confused - it has nothing to do with anything other than the wrist motion working the OPPOSITE direction than most players. It's all in the hands/fingers/wrists.
 
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cjssecrets4u2 said:
...everyone knows you can't play on a pool table...
Click to expand...
CJ, if several people are telling you your "techniques" aren't making sense to them, the reasonable thing to do (especially if you're trying to promote yourself as a teacher) isn't to stoop to childish insults, but to try to explain more clearly.

Of course, that would be the "normal and conventional" response, so maybe it's just not your cup of tea...

pj
chgo
 
important whether Rembrandt, Michelangelo or Picasso held the paint brush tighter

Rod said:
I agree with you CJ, that's the way I deliver the cue. Likewise its a smooth transition & no snapping motion. I think some feel they snap but a smooth transition is likely the reason. A deliberate snap IMO is not desirable or as effective as its a forced motion.

Of course the silent killer is starting back to fast which leads to starting forward to fast. That is the major reason for increased tension in the grip & arm & inhibits a smooth delivery.

Rod
Click to expand...

That's exactly right. It's the unwanted tension that's the "killer". I use a consistant grip pressure and mine is firmer than normal. This is the personal part of playing pool.

It's not important whether Rembrandt, Michelangelo or Picasso held the paint brush tighter than the other. They all held it the way they needed, to express themselves and that's what pool players do as well. At the hightest level it's an art form.

I can hold it loosely and gently too, but that's not how I perform at my best. But the wrist motion remains the thing, that is the "difference that makes the difference" IMHO
 
'The Game is the Teacher'

Patrick Johnson said:
CJ, if several people are telling you your "techniques" aren't making sense to them, the reasonable thing to do (especially if you're trying to promote yourself as a teacher) isn't to stoop to childish insults, but to try to explain more clearly.

Of course, that would be the "normal and conventional" response, so maybe it's just not your cup of tea...

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

You should take your own advice. You have NEVER even tried anything I've suggested. I wondered why and then someone private messaged me that you sit around playing VIDEO POOL and Knock people all day on azbilliards forums. Get a life pj, it's time to mature in the REAL game of pool.

These Techniques and Systems are NOT for you or any "Keyboard Pool Player", it's for serious Players. You aren't fooling anyone, we all know you don't play, why try to spoil it for others that want to get better and enjoy The REAL Game more. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
I wondered why and then someone private messaged me that you sit around playing VIDEO POOL and Knock people all day on azbilliards forums. Get a life pj, it's time to mature in the REAL game of pool.
Click to expand...


I suppose, because you are an forum ingenue, this is forgivable, but you should be smart enough to figure out that people PM all kinds of foolish things to one another here. My point being that just because someone PMs you something does not make it true nor worthy of repeating.

When you've been here longer you'll learn that there are folks here with all kinds of agendas, motives, goals, aspirations, grudges, friends, and enemies. Backstabbing someone via PM is just par for the course ;-)

Rather than fall victim to taking rumors, innuendoes, an accusations at face value I would suggest you try providing honest and civil participation, if that's possible...

I'd also suggest losing the bumper stickers and fortune cookie logic, but that's just me.

Lou Figueroa
 
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