WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

West Point 1987 said:
I have adopted a minimalist approach with respect to practice strokes...I pause at the cue ball, pull back, pause and stroke. I do two slow distance-measuring strokes as soon as I get down, but not a lot of sawing back and forth. For a long time I would ensure at least 4 practice strokes, but came to the conclusion (for me) that it was wasted effort--and actually broke my concentration. I need at least one measuring stroke to check that my stance is straight and nothing's binding or pulling my stroke off line. But in my PSR the most important/useful part is the pause at the cue ball. It lines up my vision and visualization of the shot (I actually view the results of the shot in my mind's eye during this pause, then pull the trigger).
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I wanted to quote this message because I think some people are missing the point in the discussion about practice strokes, or at least a part of the point.

I mentioned the difference between the traditional practice stroke and the cue ball - cue tip measuring that some players do in a previous post. West Point described it better than I did here.

I don't know of any players that just get down and shoot. Sean mentioned Tony Drago. He does the measuring thing where he just sizes up where he's going to hit the cue ball. Ronnie O'Sullivan pretty much does this exact same thing, except he might throw in a single practice stroke, of the sawing variety.

For me personally, I do just as West Point 1987 described, I might do 1 practice stroke after I first approach the cue ball just to loosen up, but then I just focus on where I'm going to hit the cue ball. I've found this focus on the cue ball/cue tip contact is WAY more important than trying to gauge the speed of the actual stroke.

Ever since I've thrown the traditional practice strokes out I've noticed that I'm playing much more subconsciously. Of course, I've noticed that after the fact, not while I was shooting since that wouldn't be possible right???

I think this is one of those things that will definitely vary from player to player but it's worth messing with if you are like me and you think maybe you are spending too much time down over the ball.
 
BasementDweller said:
I wanted to quote this message because I think some people are missing the point in the discussion about practice strokes, or at least a part of the point.

I mentioned the difference between the traditional practice stroke and the cue ball - cue tip measuring that some players do in a previous post. West Point described it better than I did here.

I don't know of any players that just get down and shoot. Sean mentioned Tony Drago. He does the measuring thing where he just sizes up where he's going to hit the cue ball. Ronnie O'Sullivan pretty much does this exact same thing, except he might throw in a single practice stroke, of the sawing variety.

For me personally, I do just as West Point 1987 described, I might do 1 practice stroke after I first approach the cue ball just to loosen up, but then I just focus on where I'm going to hit the cue ball. I've found this focus on the cue ball/cue tip contact is WAY more important than trying to gauge the speed of the actual stroke.

Ever since I've thrown the traditional practice strokes out I've noticed that I'm playing much more subconsciously. Of course, I've noticed that after the fact, not while I was shooting since that wouldn't be possible right???

I think this is one of those things that will definitely vary from player to player but it's worth messing with if you are like me and you think maybe you are spending too much time down over the ball.
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I like your description, too. At times, i have adopted a similar approach, and then for some unknown reason, I find myself back in the sawing routine.

It's hard to remember what to remember, sometimes :p

I shall see if i can get back into tba routine this evening. Thanks
 
CreeDo said:
Are you duckie now, you're really worried people are ignoring the teachings of an amateur because they want to listen to a pro?
Creedo, I can't believe, after all this time, that you would even think that. I don't give a damn WHO anyone listens to. Only that WHAT they listen to is correct. And I can't believe I am having to say that again. Do you actually READ posts, or do you just skim through them hoping something will jump out at you??
You know, I used to like your posts, but I've gotta be blunt here.

You make CJ out to be the narcissist, but if you're honest with yourself and your own motives... isn't all of this about you, and how you feel people aren't crediting your opinions enough over someone else's? And that offends you on some deep level?
Again, not in the least. I'm not on some ego trip, that's for the kiddies that need peer approval because they don't even know themselves enough to be happy with just themselves. It's about correct info being put out. And being willing to stand up and say something when someone, no matter who, is feeding others bogus material.
Certainly the act of quitting and manually deleting all your old posts fits that mold. Like you're really sticking it to AZB by denying them the benefit of your wisdom. You have to be pretty self-absorbed to think that way.
No, I explained why I did that. Several times. Again, it goes back to reading something.
Every day on AZ, someone will post something you strongly disagree with... whether it's physics or politics. It's up to you, you can handle it gracefully and argue politely (check out the new John Barton)... or you can ignore it (like I avoid aiming threads)... or you can be like a dog with a bone about it and stridently argue to the point where someone feels like quitting or someone gets banned.
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Try re-reading this thread from the beginning. See who started the crap to start with. Some losers on here even baited CJ with pm's to make sure this would happen, know they post about it bragging. And, re-read what Patrick recently said about it. If you have followed my posts at all, you would know that 90% of the time I disagree, it is in a nice way. But, when poked and prodded, I have a tendency to respond in kind, and some can't handle it. Too many sick individuals on here like English that constantly go out of their way to stir stuff up. Then try and claim innocence.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Spimp13 said:
Thanks for the reply. I would like more input for people who have tried the "no practice stroke" way.

Let's just assume, you are a player that every time from the moment you examine the table and have a game plan on your next 3 shots in advance what you are going to do. IF you are able to get in your stance correctly, line up the shot (every time), and hit the exact spot you are aiming every time with a fluid stroke, is the no practice stroke a bad thing?[/QUOTE

I have no set routine(opening for slur) but most of the time I do not take 'practice strokes'. I simply set up & shoot. However on a few shots(probably some more difficult ones) I do take some practice strokes. I did not think that those occasional misses were at any accelerated rate but in thinking back I 'real eyesed' that i did mis way more of that type than the no stroke type.

However my conclusion was in reference to being set correctly. I was stroking more, practicing, because subconsciously I 'knew' that it was not coreect. So... now when i find myself taking 'practice' strokes I know that something is off & get up & start over & get down to where I can just shoot. The percentage of no stroke shots is much higher but keep in mind that it is a result of proper sight & set up & is not it & of itself a magic solution.

Just my nickel.

Regards,
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Funny you should mention the problem with excessive practice strokes. I agree that it can lead to second guessing. Gene had a term for those really difficult shots where you're never really sure about it, no matter how long you study it. He called them 'dead man shots.'

You look at the shot and you think: "I'm dead." Gene would encourage me to drop and shoot those shots and I made more than I missed with that method. But with that method, you can't second guess yourself or question why you missed.

Every so often I'll drop and shoot when I recognize a dead man shot. I make some and miss some. I only wish I had the trust and courage to do it more often.
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nobcitypool said:
And you think he isn't? LMAO! The guy that always has a picture of himself in his sigtag (or whatever it is) and regularly changes it? He is the Poster Boy for Narcissist. BTW, that's fine and from my POV, that has nothing to do with why he was challenged here. He was challenged when he started posting total BS. It all essentially started in the Wrist ... hidden power ... blah, blah, thread. Go back to his posts prior to that thread and show me where people were disrespecting him, baiting him or anything else? From reading several posts here, one would think people were riding CJ from the moment he started posting here hot and heavy. The facts show something entirely different but why let that interfere with someone's perception?
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Every pro I've seen post here has a pic of themselves.
If CJ's got a personality problem, it doesn't really affect or offend me, and I don't understand why anyone would get worked up.

This info about wrists don't strike me as "total BS", they strike me as a sincere effort to impart knowledge. He's not the first guy to suggest the wrist is important. It's a very routine and harmless opinion... it's not like he said "every draw shot needs to be hit with low left and a 17 mm tip."

He even acknowledges that some of the stuff that works for him, goes against strictly rational thinking (for example the 'touch of inside'). While I personally won't be hitting balls with a touch of inside, I don't make it my mission to tell a guy who plays 30 speeds above me that he's full of it.
 
CreeDo said:
While I personally won't be hitting balls with a touch of inside, I don't make it my mission to tell a guy who plays 30 speeds above me that he's full of it.
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30 speeds??? Come on now, give yourself some credit. I'd be willing to bet he doesn't play anymore than 27 speeds better than you.
 
CreeDo said:
Every pro I've seen post here has a pic of themselves.
If CJ's got a personality problem, it doesn't really affect or offend me, and I don't understand why anyone would get worked up.

This info about wrists don't strike me as "total BS", they strike me as a sincere effort to impart knowledge. He's not the first guy to suggest the wrist is important. It's a very routine and harmless opinion... it's not like he said "every draw shot needs to be hit with low left and a 17 mm tip."

He even acknowledges that some of the stuff that works for him, goes against strictly rational thinking (for example the 'touch of inside'). While I personally won't be hitting balls with a touch of inside, I don't make it my mission to tell a guy who plays 30 speeds above me that he's full of it.
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Did it ever occur to you that you don't "make it your mission" because you only care about what benefits you and not others? That you don't care if someone else on here with limited time ends up wasting that precious time trying something that won't benefit them?

That's fine if you feel like that. But not all of us do. Most of the instructors, and a few others really do care about others on here. Sorry that offends you and makes you question whether or not we are narcissistic.
 
FranCrimi said:
Funny you should mention the problem with excessive practice strokes. I agree that it can lead to second guessing. Gene had a term for those really difficult shots where you're never really sure about it, no matter how long you study it. He called them 'dead man shots.'
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Excessive? It sounds like the problem isn't being identified there. You could take 1 stroke or 100 strokes, what matters is whether or not you're ready to fire when you pull the trigger. Sometimes I'll change my shot while I'm down and will take additional strokes while I find and focus on my target. A symptom does not make the problem.

CreeDo said:
He even acknowledges that some of the stuff that works for him, goes against strictly rational thinking (for example the 'touch of inside'). While I personally won't be hitting balls with a touch of inside, I don't make it my mission to tell a guy who plays 30 speeds above me that he's full of it.
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Wha'chu talkin bout?

difrent stuff.jpg
 
I think the tough part attempting to do a no practice stroke after years of playing with 2-3 will be not trying to overthink all the other aspects of the whole process. I may have to film it to pick out details. Too bad my flip camera video takes up too much space otherwise I could upload here...maybe youtube I guess.

I can just break and take ball in hand in 9 ball with both methods to see if there is any visual difference while at the same time in my mind seeing if there is any mental thought difference I do while doing it differently.
 
Spimp13 said:
I think the tough part attempting to do a no practice stroke after years of playing with 2-3 will be not trying to overthink all the other aspects of the whole process. I may have to film it to pick out details. Too bad my flip camera video takes up too much space otherwise I could upload here...maybe youtube I guess.

I can just break and take ball in hand in 9 ball with both methods to see if there is any visual difference while at the same time in my mind seeing if there is any mental thought difference I do while doing it differently.
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The no practice stroke is something you do during your practice time.
 
Spimp13 said:
I think the tough part attempting to do a no practice stroke after years of playing with 2-3 will be not trying to overthink all the other aspects of the whole process. I may have to film it to pick out details. Too bad my flip camera video takes up too much space otherwise I could upload here...maybe youtube I guess.

I can just break and take ball in hand in 9 ball with both methods to see if there is any visual difference while at the same time in my mind seeing if there is any mental thought difference I do while doing it differently.
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I think you're right about making the transition. It was hard for me, even just practicing. However, I did learn a lot from it, especially about how often I was second-guessing myself and not realizing it.
 
CreeDo said:
Every pro I've seen post here has a pic of themselves.
If CJ's got a personality problem, it doesn't really affect or offend me, and I don't understand why anyone would get worked up.

This info about wrists don't strike me as "total BS", they strike me as a sincere effort to impart knowledge. He's not the first guy to suggest the wrist is important. It's a very routine and harmless opinion... it's not like he said "every draw shot needs to be hit with low left and a 17 mm tip."

He even acknowledges that some of the stuff that works for him, goes against strictly rational thinking (for example the 'touch of inside'). While I personally won't be hitting balls with a touch of inside, I don't make it my mission to tell a guy who plays 30 speeds above me that he's full of it.
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I don't know why so many people feel compelled to attack CJ. Here is a top pro trying to share valuable insights and theories, and a potentially interesting exchange of ideas quickly devolves into personal attacks. People keep pushing CJ's buttons until he apparently feels compelled to respond in ways that are seemingly arrogant. Frank Lloyd Wright, the great architect, said he had to choose between hypocritical humility and honest arrogance, and he chose the latter. Whatever anyone thinks about CJ himself is utterly irrelevant to whether he is right or not. Let's listen to what he says, test it for ourselves, and form our own opinions, without considering personalities and personal attacks.
 
BasementDweller said:
30 speeds??? Come on now, give yourself some credit. I'd be willing to bet he doesn't play anymore than 27 speeds better than you.
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OK sure... If they had a game called 30-ball, he would need to give me the wild 4 out =)

Neil said:
Did it ever occur to you that you don't "make it your mission" because you only care about what benefits you and not others? That you don't care if someone else on here with limited time ends up wasting that precious time trying something that won't benefit them?
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Sorry... I just don't believe you deeply care about faceless strangers who might be wasting their limited precious time on bad pool info. That's not criticism... why would you? I wouldn't expect you cry about a landslide in uruguay either.

If other people's wasted time is your concern, encourage them to quit pool and do something more productive with their lives.

I just want you to give serious thought to this... it's not an easy thing to admit. But most teaching happens because it's an ego stroke for the teacher. And you also need an ego to go into lengthy online arguments with people.

If you don't have that ego, you'd just present your case in one or two posts, and move on.

10 page threads like this happen because people are less concerned with getting to the truth, and more concerned with being right on the internet.
 
CreeDo said:
OK sure... If they had a game called 30-ball, he would need to give me the wild 4 out =)



Sorry... I just don't believe you deeply care about faceless strangers who might be wasting their limited precious time on bad pool info. That's not criticism... why would you? I wouldn't expect you cry about a landslide in uruguay either.

If other people's wasted time is your concern, encourage them to quit pool and do something more productive with their lives.

I just want you to give serious thought to this... it's not an easy thing to admit. But most teaching happens because it's an ego stroke for the teacher. And you also need an ego to go into lengthy online arguments with people.

If you don't have that ego, you'd just present your case in one or two posts, and move on.

10 page threads like this happen because people are less concerned with getting to the truth, and more concerned with being right on the internet.
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By your own words, that must be true of you. Not me. I'm done. And, no offense, but if I have to explain "why", you wouldn't understand then either.:frown:
 
cookie man said:
How convenient, hard to believe though.
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I don't believe RandyG or Scott teach CEI but something different they call SAM (Stick Aiming Method). I don't believe Patrick was being evasive in the least, I don't believe he has ever taken a lesson from either.
 
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