WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[TheThaiger]

I'm sure you can play like that, but he's going to need some Icy Hot and a chiropractor before everything is "said and done".

They don't teach us to play that way in Missouri! :groucho:

Just kiddin.....One thing that I really think is good about the snooker players is how they face the cue ball very squarely. It's the ideal position to pot balls in, but the down side is it's not quite as powerful a position to move the cue ball around the table.

In the last Mosconi Cup I was in we played a lot against Steve Davis and Ronnie O'Sullivan and they rarely missed a ball, but did stuggle a bit on power draw and follow shots. And don't take me wrong, I've seen them make incredible ones playing snooker, but it's just tougher playing billiards.

Most snooker players struggle with power shots when playing pool, especially the break. I think this is more to do with lack of practice or necessity than a different technique. Snooker is all about timing, not grunt. I know an English 8 ball pro who can't break over 15mph on a 9 footer.

 

[CJ Wiley]

always shift your upper body with your left foot so you don't change your body angles

and the left foot MUST be on the "Line of the Shot" or it's tough to be precise day in, day out. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Did you mean the left foot must be PARALLEL to the line of the shot? For a right handed player the RIGHT foot must be ON the line of the shot......that's what the snooker coaches stress. Thx.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the left foot is parallel to the "Line of the Shot". This I go over in detail in my first instructional methods. I use my left foot to aim at different "Zones' of the pocket.

At the advanced level you always shift your upper body with your left foot so you don't change your body angles. The shoulders/arm/wrist/fingers need to keep the same relationship to each other to stay super consistent. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[gregcantrall]

Shooting with mittens on

Playing the "conventional way" feels like wearing mittons after you use the wrist/hand/fingers method for awhile.

That is the exact analogy that came to my mind as well!!
When I first started in the trades (back in the 60's), my mentor would say, "Working with gloves on is like a bear cub pawing at his pecker."
Have you ever tried to finger nails with leather gloves on?

My results were immediate as soon as I started thinking of my fingers controlling the delivery of the cue.

 

[ENGLISH!]

CJ,

I tried out the 'firm tennis grip unconventional wrist action' yesterday. At first it was uncomfortable & not working very well until I pronated a bit & it fell into the slot. I can definitely 'real eyes' its potential. I had trouble with it on the break though. The power was there but I was mis hitting a bit to the left. My break stroke was dead on the last time I played & again when I went back to my normal stroke when the 'competion' walked in.

Question, does the cue rotate at all in your stroke? I noticed that Earl's does at times & with this stroke it seems to want to naturally rotate(twist). Am I doing something wrong? Which is very probable. I know it is nearly impossible to answer without seeing but I was just wondering if you had an idea.

Thanks, and thanks again for being here & putting up with the 'Vigilante Committee'. I will be visiting your facebook page from now on as well.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I don't believe RandyG or Scott teach CEI but something different they call SAM (Stick Aiming Method). I don't believe Patrick was being evasive in the least, I don't believe he has ever taken a lesson from either.

I've had more than one session with Scott, but aiming wasn't on the agenda - I wanted Scott's excellent stroke/fundamentals coaching (and got it). I know those guys teach SAM, and I know it's a "fractional" system, but that's all. It doesn't have any bearing on my respect for their qualifications.

Cookie's just fishing for ways to attack his "enemies", as usual. No need to pay much attention.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

im curious as to who has actually tried at the table any of CJ's techniques and disliked them?

I've used all of them - they're not new or "secret", just repackaged.

Take, for instance, his "touch of inside" to counteract the touch of outside spin the CB picks up from hitting the OB: if you don't do that at least a few times every time you play then you're not really controlling the CB. It's just one of the tip positions needed in every day play.

This wrist-lock technique is another example - it's very common, but has nothing to do with adding power to the stroke. I've tried it and rejected it because it did just the opposite: reduced stroke power (and "touch") compared with a relaxed wrist.

Generally, I think the things CJ has described are only "CJ's techniques" because he describes them unconventionally, and sometimes misleadingly.

pj
chgo

 

[MahnaMahna]

Generally, I think the things CJ has described are only "CJ's techniques" because he describes them unconventionally, and sometimes misleadingly.

So do you think CJ is intentionally doing this to make it seem like he knows stuff other people don't and could describe them conventionally if he wasn't trying to sell his knowledge?

 

[Pay Up Sucker]

I've used all of them - they're not new or "secret", just repackaged.

Take, for instance, his "touch of inside" to counteract the touch of outside spin the CB picks up from hitting the OB: if you don't do that at least a few times every time you play then you're not really controlling the CB. It's just one of the tip positions needed in every day play.

This wrist-lock technique is another example - it's very common, but has nothing to do with adding power to the stroke. I've tried it and rejected it because it did just the opposite: reduced stroke power (and "touch") compared with a relaxed wrist.

Generally, I think the things CJ has described are only "CJ's techniques" because he describes them unconventionally, and sometimes misleadingly.

pj
chgo

At least someone finally manned up! Good post PJ and remember CJ is not really into discussing detail like yourself on here. He likes to throw things out there and let us try to figure it out on our own, so have some patients with him, keep the thread fun and knowledgeable for us all following it.

 

[cookie man]

I've had more than one session with Scott, but aiming wasn't on the agenda - I wanted Scott's excellent stroke/fundamentals coaching (and got it). I know those guys teach SAM, and I know it's a "fractional" system, but that's all. It doesn't have any bearing on my respect for their qualifications.

Cookie's just fishing for ways to attack his "enemies", as usual. No need to pay much attention.

pj
chgo

PJ, i don't consider u an enemy, but i do like to point out when you try to play both sides.

 

[Slasher]

Yes, the "FULL" practice strokes are detrimental for a number of reasong. First they force you to use your arm too much which is what you're trying to avoid.

Second it effects how your eyes go back and forth from the cue ball to the object ball (this is a dangerous area to mess with). Third it DOES make you more conscious about what you are doing.

Think in terms of being a MASTER of pool and how you would move, how you would look at the table and how you would take your practice stokes. It reminds me of a Champion dart player I knew in Tampa Fl., he would hit where he was aiming EVERY TIME. He would just point the dart, measure up with some "applied pressure" and release the dart by extending his hand towards the target. Just like extending your tip through the ball, there's no need to think about "stoke", just your hand and releasing your wrist/fingers smoothly.

So this is bad?

http://youtu.be/73Vd6SnP7A8

 

[Patrick Johnson]

So do you think CJ is intentionally doing this to make it seem like he knows stuff other people don't

Yes, I think that's part of it, but not all of it.

...and could describe them conventionally if he wasn't trying to sell his knowledge?

I don't know for sure if he could or not. I kinda doubt it because he consistently avoids any detailed discussion of exactly how his ideas are supposed to work, defaulting to pure marketing (motivational quotes and posters) when pressed.

I don't want to take anything away from CJ's remarkable accomplishments as a player - he's one of the all time best. That just doesn't mean to me that everything he says should be taken as manna from Pool Heaven, especially when there are many readers trying to learn here who don't know (yet) that being a great player doesn't necessarily make you unusually knowledgable.

There are lots of players who know more than most pros do about how things happen in pool - even though any pro would obliterate all of them at the table.

pj
chgo

 

[Slasher]

I'm sure you can play like that, but he's going to need some Icy Hot and a chiropractor before everything is "said and done".

They don't teach us to play that way in Missouri! :groucho:

Just kiddin.....One thing that I really think is good about the snooker players is how they face the cue ball very squarely. It's the ideal position to pot balls in, but the down side is it's not quite as powerful a position to move the cue ball around the table.

In the last Mosconi Cup I was in we played a lot against Steve Davis and Ronnie O'Sullivan and they rarely missed a ball, but did stuggle a bit on power draw and follow shots. And don't take me wrong, I've seen them make incredible ones playing snooker, but it's just tougher playing billiards.

Maybe they were using the wrong cues.

 

[Slasher]

Did you mean the left foot must be PARALLEL to the line of the shot? For a right handed player the RIGHT foot must be ON the line of the shot......that's what the snooker coaches stress. Thx.

Yes, the left foot is parallel to the "Line of the Shot". This I go over in detail in my first instructional methods. I use my left foot to aim at different "Zones' of the pocket.

At the advanced level you always shift your upper body with your left foot so you don't change your body angles. The shoulders/arm/wrist/fingers need to keep the same relationship to each other to stay super consistent. 'The Game is the Teacher'[/QUOTE]

Been taught in the snooker world for eons

 

[Slasher]

Funny you should mention the problem with excessive practice strokes. I agree that it can lead to second guessing. Gene had a term for those really difficult shots where you're never really sure about it, no matter how long you study it. He called them 'dead man shots.'

You look at the shot and you think: "I'm dead." Gene would encourage me to drop and shoot those shots and I made more than I missed with that method. But with that method, you can't second guess yourself or question why you missed.

Every so often I'll drop and shoot when I recognize a dead man shot. I make some and miss some. I only wish I had the trust and courage to do it more often.

Please explain the reasoning/benefit behind practicing differently than how you intend to play in a match.

 

[Slasher]

I've used all of them - they're not new or "secret", just repackaged.

Take, for instance, his "touch of inside" to counteract the touch of outside spin the CB picks up from hitting the OB: if you don't do that at least a few times every time you play then you're not really controlling the CB. It's just one of the tip positions needed in every day play.

pj
chgo

Isn't this just compensating for a cross stroke from not finding center ball?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

PJ, i don't consider u an enemy

Whatever you say.

... but i do like to point out when you try to play both sides.

I've consistently pointed out the real merits of things I criticize - and have consistently stuck to correcting what I see as unrealistic claims of overzealous fans.

Seeing the merits of different views isn't "playing both sides"; it's just having your eyes fully open. I'm on the "side" of open discussion without partisan censorship.

You usually complain about lack of open mindedness on "the other side" - now when it suits your purpose you reverse your tune. I'll leave it for others to decide who's trying to play both sides.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Take, for instance, his "touch of inside" to counteract the touch of outside spin the CB picks up from hitting the OB: if you don't do that at least a few times every time you play then you're not really controlling the CB. It's just one of the tip positions needed in every day play.

pj
chgo

Slasher:
Isn't this just compensating for a cross stroke from not finding center ball?

Sorry, I don't follow your terminology. Can you rephrase?

pj
chgo

 

[jmurphy]

For his elbow to remain where it is the wrist must be uncocking slighly down/forward. The movement in the regular stroke is difficult to detect, but on the break it becomes much more evident. SEE PICTURES

I'm not sure how Shane feels about this motion or if he's aware of it. In my game it's an important factor that produced effective results. I'm just sharing this and if it helps some players that's great, and if not, just put it on a shelf. 'The Game is the Teacher.

Hey CJ how about making a short video going over this wrist action and posting to Youtube?

 

[TheThaiger]

Whatever you say.


I've consistently pointed out the real merits of things I criticize - and have consistently stuck to correcting what I see as unrealistic claims of overzealous fans.

Seeing the merits of different views isn't "playing both sides"; it's just having your eyes fully open. I'm on the "side" of open discussion without partisan censorship.

You usually complain about lack of open mindedness on "the other side" - now when it suits your purpose you reverse your tune. I'll leave it for others to decide who's trying to play both sides.

pj
chgo

Not aimed at you by any means, but I am enjoying watching previously mortal enemies uniting to criticise CJ.

Most amusing.

 

[cookie man]

Whatever you say.


I've consistently pointed out the real merits of things I criticize - and have consistently stuck to correcting what I see as unrealistic claims of overzealous fans.

Seeing the merits of different views isn't "playing both sides"; it's just having your eyes fully open. I'm on the "side" of open discussion without partisan censorship.

You usually complain about lack of open mindedness on "the other side" - now when it suits your purpose you reverse your tune. I'll leave it for others to decide who's trying to play both sides.

pj
chgo

What tune am i reversing? You admittedly have opinions on things without even trying them. All i ask is u try things first so the discussion is valid. If you dont like it then fine.