WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

often overshadowed by Efren Reyes, Bustemante, Luat and Andam

Ever just play around with it. Go back and look at Kiamco play, he very rarely goes above center cb but still rolls the ball around the table.

That's a good observation. I've been watching Kiamco play the last couple of weeks since Johnny's Tournament in Atlanta.

His cue angle is perfect and his wrist/finger motion accelerates the cue into a great follow through position.

Kiamco played in a lot of the same tournaments that I did in the 90s, and was often overshadowed by Efren Reyes, Bustemante, Luat and Andam who were the "first string", even though it appears Kiamco was very close. Then a young kid named Alex came along at age 15 and strarted turning some heads and the rest, as they say became history. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
The guys who have reached the highest levels without pool knowledge and in the absence of struggle would be the naturals. The other 99% who play are not naturals and/or went off and did other things in life besides hit pool balls. They are looking for information that will allow them -- with limited time and talent -- to get further up the mountain.

To say aspiring players can't or shouldn't delve into the science of the game because it makes it too difficult and/or confusing *for you* is absurd.

Lou Figueroa

But those same players looking for information will not even try new things at the table. If you want science watch The Big Bang Theory.
 
The guys who have reached the highest levels without pool knowledge and in the absence of struggle would be the naturals. The other 99% who play are not naturals and/or went off and did other things in life besides hit pool balls. They are looking for information that will allow them -- with limited time and talent -- to get further up the mountain.

To say aspiring players can't or shouldn't delve into the science of the game because it makes it too difficult and/or confusing *for you* is absurd.
Well stated.

"The Game is the Teacher" is certainly true. Nothing beats endless hours of purposeful practice and successful experience. And even with knowledge and understanding, lots of practice time is still required to create the intuition and feel necessary to apply the knowledge and understanding. However, this doesn't mean that knowledge and understanding is a bad thing. For the many people who don't have the desire or ability to dedicate a large percentage of their life to table time, the knowledge and understanding can help them progress faster and be more efficient with their limited practice time. For the few people who are able to dedicate enormous amounts of time at the table, the knowledge and understanding aren't as important because they will develop an intuitive feel for everything as the Game teaches them, assuming they don't have extreme technique flaws and/or gross misunderstandings that limit or dramatically slow their development.

Also, as you and others have pointed out, the knowledge and understanding should not cause you to over think a shot. More importantly, one should definitely not be thinking during a shot. However, it can sometimes help a lot to think before a shot. Intuition and feel created by countless hours of purposeful practice and successful experience also helps.

For more info, see:

The Game is the Teacher ... but Knowledge and Understanding is a Good Thing

Regards,
Dave
 
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The Game Teaches Knowledge and Understanding

Well stated.

"The Game is the Teacher" is certainly true. Nothing beats endless hours of purposeful practice and successful experience. And even with knowledge and understanding, lots of practice time is still required to create the intuition and feel necessary to apply the knowledge and understanding. However, this doesn't mean that knowledge and understanding is a bad thing. For the many people who don't have the desire or ability to dedicate a large percentage of their life to table time, the knowledge and understanding can help them progress faster and be more efficient with their limited practice time. For the few people who are able to dedicate enormous amounts of time at the table, the knowledge and understanding aren't as important because they will develop an intuitive feel for everything as the Game teaches them, assuming they don't have extreme technique flaws and/or gross misunderstandings that limit or dramatically slow their development.

Also, as you and others have pointed out, the knowledge and understanding should not cause you to over think a shot. More importantly, one should definitely not be thinking during a shot. However, it can sometimes help a lot to think before a shot. Intuition and feel created by countless hours of purposeful practice and successful experience also helps.

The Game is the Teacher ... but Knowledge and Understanding is a Good Thing

Regards,
Dave

That was clear and concise, Dave, thanks.

Our points are more about styles and techniques becoming refined so the Game is less complicated. I've had many discussion with accomplished players and we are alway in the "solution mode" as related to pool knowledge.

I'm just not convinced that beginners would benefit from understanding what can go wrong in their stroke and not have someone emphasize what can go right if they have the correct fundamentals.

Keeping your cue level and hitting "center ball" leads to the "what can go wrong" syndrome. Maybe there are some beginners on this Forum that can tell us why they wouldn't want to learn the advanced basics from the start? Then they can realize why their stroke is producing positive results rather than why they are having to adjust for negative "side effects".

In other words instead of talking about swerve/veer/squirt issues we talk about how to play in a way that drastically reduces these unwanted "side effects". That's the mode, after deep reflection, that seems like the best for rapid improvement. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
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CJ:
...instead of talking about swerve/veer/squirt issues we talk about how to play in a way that drastically reduces these unwanted "side effects".
Your jacked up technique increases swerve, the most difficult side effect to cope with. Of course you're free to do it that way and to encourage others to try it - but why discourage them from talking about the details so they can make their own informed choices?

pj
chgo
 
If there's any beginners out there reading this please let me know

Your jacked up technique increases swerve, the most difficult side effect to cope with. Of course you're free to do it that way and to encourage others to try it - but why discourage them from talking about the details so they can make their own informed choices?

pj
chgo

I don't "jack up" my cue on anything other than on jump shots, shots off the rail and when shooting over a ball. There's a big difference between the correct cue angle and "jacking up" or a "jacked up" cue position.

That's why you want to use some of these techniques so you pass on knowledge from experience, not from just theories that don't hold up to real competition. Playing in a league or tournament is good experience so to at least relate to playing in "battle conditions". Sometimes things look good on paper (?) and don't hold up in the "real world" of competition.

You say I'm discouraging "them"....who do you speak of? I would honestly say there's VERY FEW beginners on this Forum. And if there are beginners here I think they should have an opportunity to speak for themselves.

If there's any beginners out there reading this please let us know with a private message and let me know what you would prefer to learn and how. This will be a positive and constructive way to understand if we need to tone it down a bit as is being suggested.

If you consider yourself intermediate we would like to hear from you as well to get insight on what you want to learn on the new video section coming soon to AZBILLIARDS. Thank you in advance.
 
BHE is good for when you are near the object ball because there is not a lot of curve involved. The further away you get from the object ball, the bigger the effect of curve becomes even with a level cue and high speed, and thus CTE becomes less accurate.

Eventually there is a break even point where, instead of trying to create as little curve as possible with a flat stroke and CTE, you are better off just aiming straight at the aim point (or at least closer to the aim point) and canceling deflection out with curve by adjusting the speed of the shot and the angle of your cue.

Its actually a bit easier than it sounds. We are not talking about full masses here. Just take any long cut with say 2 tips of english and start out using a parallel adjustment (as opposed to CTE), pick a not-so-extreme elevation of your cue, and let yourself feel the right speed to hit the ball. You can decide for yourself which is easier and you may well fall back to CTE, but just know that there are other methods out there.

One thing I might note; if you do not have a stroke that can hit the cue ball accurately with consistent speed, this technique will be very difficult because you probably wont be able to control the curve.

You started with BHE and then switched to CTE... I think you meant BHE right along, no?

Anyway, yes, I agree that BHE's usefulness drops off as the distance between the cue ball and object ball increases, and no, I wouldn't use it at distance...

Thanks for the clarification and additional guidance.
 
Ever just play around with it. Go back and look at Kiamco play, he very rarely goes above center cb but still rolls the ball around the table.

I don't understand this guidance. How does "rarely goes above center cb" relate to my post?
 
That's why you want to use some of these techniques so you pass on knowledge from experience, not from just theories that don't hold up to real competition. Playing in a league or tournament is good experience so to at least relate to playing in "battle conditions". Sometimes things look good on paper (?) and don't hold up in the "real world" of competition.


As far as I can see, the only one talking about "theories" is you. PJ, Dr. Dave, and some of the others are talking about cold hard facts. The science and physics of the game does not change during practice, league play, at a tournament, or in a money match. Theories... who knows.

Lou Figueroa
 
an important element of precise cue ball contact and control.

Of course I mean that I play with my cue as level as possible (given rail considerations).

It's just not possible to play with the top of your tip with a levelish cue. This can be an important element of precise cue ball contact and control. imho
 
CJ:
There's a big difference between the correct cue angle and "jacking up" or a "jacked up" cue position.
"Jacking up" just means elevating the butt more than "as level as possible" - you can jack up a little or a lot.

You say I'm discouraging "them"....who do you speak of?
Everybody. You say "instead of talking about swerve/veer/squirt issues", suggesting that those things shouldn't be talked about here. I think talking about these details allows all players (who are interested in learning them) to make informed choices about how they want to play, rather than just "following the leader".

pj
chgo
 
I agree that BHE's usefulness drops off as the distance between the cue ball and object ball increases, and no, I wouldn't use it at distance...
I think Masayochi uses "BHE" to mean any method of adjusting for squirt/swerve except the "cancel the swerve" method. But BHE is a very specific method among many. I don't use the specific BHE technique or the "cancel the swerve" method - they aren't the only options.

pj
chgo
 
I think Masayochi uses "BHE" to mean any method of adjusting for squirt/swerve except the "cancel the swerve" method. But BHE is a very specific method among many. I don't use the specific BHE technique or the "cancel the swerve" method - they aren't the only options.

pj
chgo

He started with BHE and then switched to CTE...

No, I don't use BHE to "cancel the swerve", but to cancel the squirt.
 
Ever just play around with it. Go back and look at Kiamco play, he very rarely goes above center cb but still rolls the ball around the table.

I'm still not sure what the "it" in this post refers to, but I watched all of:

kiamco

and I see a pretty much level cue, with a lot of extraneous stroke motion, but with a good shot outcome...
 
We appreciate your cold, hard facts Lou, who wouldn't?

As far as I can see, the only one talking about "theories" is you. PJ, Dr. Dave, and some of the others are talking about cold hard facts. The science and physics of the game does not change during practice, league play, at a tournament, or in a money match. Theories... who knows.

Lou Figueroa

We appreciate your cold, hard facts Lou. Your input of cold, hard facts is always a breath of fresh air and sun to our otherwise warm, soft, rhetoric.

We're also glad your science and physics is holding up in your league play, tournaments and money matches. Be sure to keep us updated kindly. :wave3:
 
just suggesting we could also talk about the solution to your problems.

"Jacking up" just means elevating the butt more than "as level as possible" - you can jack up a little or a lot.


Everybody. You say "instead of talking about swerve/veer/squirt issues", suggesting that those things shouldn't be talked about here. I think talking about these details allows all players (who are interested in learning them) to make informed choices about how they want to play, rather than just "following the leader".

pj
chgo

I'm just suggesting we could also talk about the solution to your pocket billiard problems.
(swerve/veer/squirt) They seem to be bothering you so let's work it out and get you "back on track". Sometimes a small change will make a huge difference in performance.

Why are these issues for you? What are you doing to correct these negative side effects? Please answer with "solution oriented" feedback.
 
I don't "jack up" my cue on anything other than on jump shots, shots off the rail and when shooting over a ball. There's a big difference between the correct cue angle and "jacking up" or a "jacked up" cue position.

That's why you want to use some of these techniques so you pass on knowledge from experience, not from just theories that don't hold up to real competition. Playing in a league or tournament is good experience so to at least relate to playing in "battle conditions". Sometimes things look good on paper (?) and don't hold up in the "real world" of competition.

You say I'm discouraging "them"....who do you speak of? I would honestly say there's VERY FEW beginners on this Forum. And if there are beginners here I think they should have an opportunity to speak for themselves.

If there's any beginners out there reading this please let us know with a private message and let me know what you would prefer to learn and how. This will be a positive and constructive way to understand if we need to tone it down a bit as is being suggested.

If you consider yourself intermediate we would like to hear from you as well to get insight on what you want to learn on the new video section coming soon to AZBILLIARDS. Thank you in advance.

While I've "played pool" for over 40 years, I was purely a recreational player (never practiced) up to April of this year which is the time I took a lesson from Scott and started practicing two hours per day. While in the big picture, I still suck, I'm now an APA 6 in 8 ball and very competitive with the other 6's and 7's in the league. Scott taught me the fundamentals of a good stroke and help me set up drills for structured practice. I've purchased lots of books and DVD's, the best of which were from Jerry Brieseth and Dr. Dave's VEPS. Since Scott doesn't live next door, understanding the "why's" is extremely beneficial as I practice each day and work through problems I encounter. At the end of day though, it is simply my behavioral type that demands knowledge and understanding of the things in life I'm passionate about. I'm simply more of a knowledge and facts guy versus a touchy feely sort of guy. Everybody is different though, certainly there are those who would prefer to just bang balls around and feel their way to a solution.

If I read something here and think it makes sense at all (and sometimes when I don't think it makes sense), I try it. I've tried everything you've discussed here CJ. Some things I try, I like and adopt. Sometimes, what I try leads me to adopt a part of it. Other times, it doesn't appear to work for me and I discard it.

I think the issue here is that theories, etc. are often discussed as black and white. Reality is there are the full spectrum of colors in between. Everybody is different in behavior and personality and people's circumstances (work, family, age, passion, etc.) are different. These things being discussed and often hotly debated don't have to always be right or wrong, some will work well (or seem to work well) for some people and not for others. That's why the aiming discussions are so crazy. I hear people rave about CTE/Pro1 and SEE. I took a personal lesson from Stan on CTE/Pro1 and purchased the SEE DVD. Neither seem like a concept I want to use, I prefer ghost ball, fractional and SAM aiming systems combined with my own intuition. I believe, however, CTE and SEE are valid systems and can work for some people. Again, different strokes for different folks, no wrong or no right.

With the obvious reality of my age, I don't want to take 5 years and rely on HAMB to get better. I absolutely believe, at least for me, having a sound, consistent fundamental stroke is the best way for me to improve at the fastest and most efficient rate. I cannot imagine any aiming system being effective if you can't place the CB where you're aiming on the object ball.

So I can't speak for everyone but as a "relative beginner", I thirst for the knowledge and understanding. To me, "real competition" occurs anytime you're playing someone else at the table. For me, it is the love and passion for the game. I couldn't afford the cut in pay by becoming a top professional, I'm quite happy with my pursuit of simply becoming a very good player.
 
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