WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[CJ Wiley]

Knowing intuitively what's happening - feeling and experiencing it for yourself

You post too fast, lol. I revised my post a little bit.

"some players will be more comfortable with more speed and more elevation, while others will prefer less speed and less elevation."

Nice quote!.....Yeah, I'm always on an internal "shot clock"... :wink:

You understand, and I can always tell when someone has really experienced the game and "gets it". There's no need for complicated observations.

Like you said in your quote a player must experience what it's like to change spins, speeds and elevations. Knowing intuitively what's happening won't benefit you nearly as much as feeling and experiencing it for yourself.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

We're ALL confused by them because they're designed to be confusing.

They're just facts, intended to be helpful. Nobody "designs" them, and we're not all confused by them.

You're just trying to act like you know something (semantics) that doesn't carry much weight to playing better

These are little things, CJ. Isn't it possible to disagree about them without being petty and childish about it (again)?

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

If the cb is still sliding at impact with the ob, then swerve did not come into play. Therefore speed is a variable that a player can use to control the distance that the cb squirts.

Therefore, tip offset is not the only way to control squirt because when you speak of the word 'control,' it's always in relation to the objective of the shot, which is to send the cb to a desired point and achieve a particular result.

Now you're talking about 'playing' not just discussing symantics.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Fran,

Squirt (cue ball deflection) does not vary with shot speed. Squirt depends only on the endmass of the shaft and the amount of tip offset from center. The amount of swerve varies with shot speed, shot distance, cue elevation, the amount and type of english, and conditions. Therefore, the combined effect of both squirt and swerve (AKA "squerve," "net cue ball deflection," or "effective cue ball deflection") does vary with speed.

I think the biggest cause for confusion and arguments in threads like this is terminology. When some people use the term "squirt" or the phrase "cue ball deflection," they actually mean the "net effect of both squirt and swerve." I think it is best to distinguish between the effects (to have a full understanding of how to adjust appropriately in various situations), or at least to be clear when one is referring to the combined effect or not.

For more info, see:

squirt (cue ball deflection) speed effects
squirt, swerve, and throw confusion
squerve​

Regards,
Dave

Well said, different vernacular or at the very least 'meaning'.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Doesn't the whether of squirt vs swerve depend upon the dry adiabatic lapse rate? :grin: Good grief!

The game IS the teacher.

I have to question how well anyone can play pool while dwelling on nomenclature and theory.

When I play, I never wonder how I would explain what I do. I just play & do it!

 

[CJ Wiley]

When I play, I never wonder how I would explain what I do. I just play & do it!

I"m sure we're all relieved you cleared that up for us.

 

[ENGLISH!]

The more I read your "rants" the more confused you appear. Of course accomplished players can use english. Who said they couldn't??? It was certainly not me, I can use any kind of english and this "goes without saying" that Earl, Efren, Johnny, etc. can too. Professional golfers can also slice, hook, pull, fade, draw (etc.) the golf ball, but that's not how they choose to play. They have a certain shot that they rely on and if they have to they use "spin shots" to get out of trouble, and not if they don't have to. If you like to spin your ball every time by all means "spin it to your hearts delight".

When competing it's best to eliminate or at least reduce unnecessary calculations. I've played a lot with Earl Stickland and he does spin his ball, but does it consistently. He's not putting various random "spins" on the ball, he's using the spin to increase margin of error in his "Pocket Zone". I do this using a "Touch of Inside" and the 3 Part Pocket System to increase my target size (the pocket).

Spinning the cue ball is something you must practice to become comfortable. Is you use a lot of different speeds and spins you will become stuck at a certain intermediate level. I suggest you practice with ONE SPEED and a variety of spins to see how your cue ball reacts. Then reduce your speed and practice the same variety of spins. Notice the difference and be realistic about how difficult it is to make those calculations.

I'm telling you from a LOT of playing and gambling experience. I can do "ALMOST" anything without spin as anyone else can do with spin. The exceptions is when I have to change the natural angle after contacting the rail AND if the cue ball needs to be curved. Those two type shots REQUIRE spin, and every other shot can be done without spinning the cue ball.

I suggest developing ONE consistent shot and try to use it as much as possible, especially under a lot of pressure. If you think spinning the ball all the time is more fun than running out every time.....well.....I just hope you don't play for your hard earned money.:wink: 'The Game is the Teacher'

CJ,

WOW! What did I mis-communicate?

I certainly was not questioning or contradicting anything that you have said or suggested. On the contrary, I have agreed with nearly everything that you have said, and... you have given me at least 3 insightful techniques that I have added to my game. Thank you for them.

I have won the most run outs award in numerous leagues & take no real pride in them as winning the game is of the most importance regardless of how it is done.

I was merely expressing MY expression of the game that I play. Please accept my apology if I insulted or upset you in any way.

Different strokes for different folks. Live & Let Live.

As always, Best Wishes, Best Regards, & With All Due Respect,

 

[ENGLISH!]

That could be the very best post I have read on AZ. I have friends that would rather spin the ball around 3 or 4 rails because it looks cool, rather than playing a stop shot.

Thank you.

The stop shot is the shot that I play the most and... most want to play whenever possible.

Regards,

 

[swest]

It's not difficult to spin the ball, it's difficult to judge the amount that it deflects out and curves in. There's an angle you can make that deflects and curves the same amount, however the "level cue" doesn't do it.
.
.
If you can play at a high level with a level cue then I'd be amazed because I've never played anyone does. It's just TOO difficult to judge spin shots with excess speed.
.
.

This is quite a ways back in the thread, but I never responded...

I don't know the metrics, but I doubt if anyone would rate me as playing at a high level. But I do play with a level cue.

For extreme spin + high speed shots I rely on BHE. I would never shoot down on the ball to get a swerve/squirt cancellation. There are just too many variables. And it astounds me that it is, at least according to the contents of this thread, a common practice among the PPE (pool-playing elite).

 

[Masayoshi]

This is quite a ways back in the thread, but I never responded...

I don't know the metrics, but I doubt if anyone would rate me as playing at a high level. But I do play with a level cue.

For extreme spin + high speed shots I rely on BHE. I would never shoot down on the ball to get a swerve/squirt cancellation. There are just too many variables. And it astounds me that it is, at least according to the contents of this thread, a common practice among the PPE (pool-playing elite).

BHE is good for when you are near the object ball because there is not a lot of curve involved. The further away you get from the object ball, the bigger the effect of curve becomes even with a level cue and high speed, and thus BHE becomes less accurate.

Eventually there is a break even point where, instead of trying to create as little curve as possible with a flat stroke and BHE, you are better off just aiming straight at the aim point (or at least closer to the aim point) and canceling deflection out with curve by adjusting the speed of the shot and the angle of your cue.

Its actually a bit easier than it sounds. We are not talking about full masses here. Just take any long cut with say 2 tips of english and start out using a parallel adjustment (as opposed to BHE), pick a not-so-extreme elevation of your cue, and let yourself feel the right speed to hit the ball. You can decide for yourself which is easier and you may well fall back to BhE,but just know that there are other methods out there.

One thing I might note; if you do not have a stroke that can hit the cue ball accurately with consistent speed, this technique will be very difficult because you probably wont be able to control the curve.

Edit: cte->bhe

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...if you do not have a stroke that can hit the cue ball accurately with consistent speed, this technique will be very difficult because you probably wont be able to control the curve.

You need to use the speed that's best for the CB position you need, so you must adjust for the amount of swerve that speed produces. With BHE you adjust your aim. With this technique you adjust your butt elevation. Either way swerve forces an adjustment. The question is which adjustment is easier for you.

I've mentioned the "extra" variables that come into play when adjusting butt elevation. Another consideration is that with BHE you always use the same method of adjustment, whereas with butt elevation you're suggesting switching back and forth. I think switching is one more way that using butt elevation is likely to be less consistent.

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

hit the shots (as much as possible), the same speed, angle, stoke, and cue ball point

This is quite a ways back in the thread, but I never responded...

I don't know the metrics, but I doubt if anyone would rate me as playing at a high level. But I do play with a level cue.

For extreme spin + high speed shots I rely on BHE. I would never shoot down on the ball to get a swerve/squirt cancellation. There are just too many variables. And it astounds me that it is, at least according to the contents of this thread, a common practice among the PPE (pool-playing elite).

I was told no one could use a "level cue", I thought there must still be "someone" that still does.

Yes, there's two, main ways to go about playing position on the next shot. One, you look for the "best and easierst way" and you spin the cue ball in whatever amount you need to get position the "best and easiest way".

The way I go about it is to look at "how can I use my BEST SHOT (a touch of inside) and get position on the next shot and play a consistent angle"?

The first method is most commonly taught (do what the table tells you to do) and I prefer the second because I don't have to constantly hit different spin shots. I use the shot I WANT TO HIT and make the situation accept that type shot as opposed to doing what the table tells me is the "easiest".

The "easiest" is not always the best over time. You can actually get yourself out of stroke playing simple patterns in rotation games. I like to hit the shots (as much as possible), the same speed, with the same aiming spot (on the primary target, the Cue Ball), the same angle and the same stroke. I play position to do this, and if you don't know this style is an option give it a try sometime.

This has always been an effective way to be consistent and not ever count of the balls laying "easy". 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Masayoshi]

You need to use the speed that's best for the CB position you need, so you must adjust for the amount of swerve that speed produces. With BHE you adjust your aim. With this technique you adjust your butt elevation. Either way swerve forces an adjustment. The question is which adjustment is easier for you.

I've mentioned the "extra" variables that come into play when adjusting butt elevation. Another consideration is that with BHE you always use the same method of adjustment, whereas with butt elevation you're suggesting switching back and forth. I think switching is one more way that using butt elevation is likely to be less consistent.

pj
chgo

But like I said before, the BHE loses accuracy the farther you get from the object ball due to curve (even with a "flat stroke") So you are not using the same form of adjustment like you stated. You will have to adjust for curve either way and aiming to where the curve and deflection cancel out is much easier to visualize than aiming to where BHE takes you and then adjusting again for curve, in my experience.

Also, good speed control is more a product of which type of spin you decide to use rather than what speed you hit the ball at. Trying to vary your stroke speed on a continuous scale is extremely difficult. Most good players only use a few speeds the vast majority of the time. Buddy Hall often looks like he is only using 1 speed all the time.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Really? In another thread you made it a point to state that you ALWAYS play for an angle, and you always are using english on a ball.

Look up your own posts, maybe you need a reminder.

Now you say you play a stop shot the most?

Which is it?

Keep in mind, I shoot almost every shot with some form of combined english, so...hitting center cb is not my comfort zone, I don't do it that often.

The stop shot is the shot that I play the most and... most want to play whenever possible.

Regards,

 

[cookie man]

This is quite a ways back in the thread, but I never responded...

I don't know the metrics, but I doubt if anyone would rate me as playing at a high level. But I do play with a level cue.

For extreme spin + high speed shots I rely on BHE. I would never shoot down on the ball to get a swerve/squirt cancellation. There are just too many variables. And it astounds me that it is, at least according to the contents of this thread, a common practice among the PPE (pool-playing elite).

Ever just play around with it. Go back and look at Kiamco play, he very rarely goes above center cb but still rolls the ball around the table.

 

[lfigueroa]

Doesn't the whether of squirt vs swerve depend upon the dry adiabatic lapse rate? :grin: Good grief!

The game IS the teacher.

I have to question how well anyone can play pool while dwelling on nomenclature and theory.

Just because these and similar topics are brought up for discussion here does not mean a single soul is "dwelling" on them at the table.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

That's funny, most of these "confusing concepts" have nothing to do with playing the game well. If anything it's the contrary.

Remember "it's easy to make pocket billiards difficult, and difficult to make the Game easy".

My position has always been to control the spin/deflection/veer with consistent speed control and if you watch the top pros you will see we ALL use a consistent cue angle to also control spin/deflection/veer.

The good news is the Game, when understood is virtually perfect (with correct rules), and when done properly you don't have to allow for spin and deflection/veer. This is done by understanding speed control and how to create the proper shaft angle from your bridge to the cue ball. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Not everyone is confused about these concepts. Most of us find them enlightening, YMMV.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

We're ALL confused by them because they're designed to be confusing. You're just trying to act like you know something (semantics) that doesn't carry much weight to playing better. Discussing potential problems without focusing on the solutions is a one way ticket to "pool purgatory".

Many players (including myself) have reached the highest levels without making the things you speak of A BIG DEAL. It's very simple how to adjust for deflection/hot mustard/squirt/sugar spin/spicy ketchup/swerve/syrup spin/veer and whatever else you can come up with to confuse curious players. These things are like the "shank", slice, hook of golf - understood, but not dwelled on for developing positive fundamentals and techniques.

The fact of the matter is you can become a champion player by learning how to eliminate these factors. Talking about them to make them appear important to the game is very deceptive. And very unnecessary to developing and maturing as a pool player, then truly enjoying the Game. 'The Game is the Teacher'

The guys who have reached the highest levels without pool knowledge and in the absence of struggle would be the naturals. The other 99% who play are not naturals and/or went off and did other things in life besides hit pool balls. They are looking for information that will allow them -- with limited time and talent -- to get further up the mountain.

To say aspiring players can't or shouldn't delve into the science of the game because it makes it too difficult and/or confusing *for you* is absurd.

Lou Figueroa

 

[CJ Wiley]

"we can only recognize what we're familiar with"

But like I said before, the BHE loses accuracy the farther you get from the object ball due to curve (even with a "flat stroke") So you are not using the same form of adjustment like you stated. You will have to adjust for curve either way and aiming to where the curve and deflection cancel out is much easier to visualize than aiming to where BHE takes you and then adjusting again for curve, in my experience.

Also, good speed control is more a product of which type of spin you decide to use rather than what speed you hit the ball at. Trying to vary your stroke speed on a continuous scale is extremely difficult. Most good players only use a few speeds the vast majority of the time. Buddy Hall often looks like he is only using 1 speed all the time.

Yes indeed. I used to practice with Buddy when I was in my early 20s and he seemed to hit every thing the same speed. This is how I came to understand that if you do this and keep a consistent cue angle you don't have to allow for veer/deflection.

When I added the "Touch" of Inside to the equation the zone of the pocket became apparent. This is when I began to first "real eyes" "we can only recognize what we're familiar with".
'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

We weren't tall enough to reach the table correctly, we used Pepsi crates to stand on

When I play, I never wonder how I would explain what I do. I just play & do it!

That's the way to enjoy the Game and without enjoyment you are sentenced to squirt/veer/swerve purgatory.

You can tell the ones that struggle from the bitterness of their tone. Games are designed to be fun and enlightening, not complicated and depressing.

I remember when I was 7 years old and another kid at school was so excited about this game called "pool". I could tell the way his eye's lighted up when he talked about it and I agreed to go with him to the pool hall after school.

We weren't tall enough to reach the table correctly so we used Pepsi crates to stand on and that day I played my first 3 games of pool. I knew something was special as I hit those first balls around and watched the colored balls bounce off the cushions and sometimes into the pockets.

I'll always remember the smell of the wood burning stove, the creak of the wooden, oil stained floors and the sound of the old men arguing over a gin rummy game in the back.

This would be my escape in the next few years and ultimately the start of an adventure that I would have never dreamed possible as a young 7 year old in a pool room. It's amazing how life unfolds and what it can teach through a simple game.

'The Game is the Teacher'