WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[dr_dave]

Well stated! Both squirt and swerve happen with every off-center hit. Squirt dominates with fast-speed shots, where the amount of swerve is small. Swerve dominates at slower speeds, higher cue elevations, and with stickier conditions. With certain combinations of cue elevation, shot speed, shot distance, and the amount and type of english, squirt and swerve can cancel each other out (for a given set of conditions).

isn't the above bold what Cj has been saying?

Honestly, I don't know because I haven't followed all of the posts very closely.

Regardless, even though it is possible to cancel the effects of squirt and swerve by changing cue elevation, this is very difficult to do reliably and consistently over a wide range of shots of different speeds, distances, amounts and types of english, and conditions. I agree with PJ that it is much easier to keep the cue as level as possible and adjust for squirt, swerve, and throw as appropriate for a given shot. This ain't easy either, but it is much easier than attempting to adjust cue elevation as everything else changes.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Underclocked]

Doesn't the whether of squirt vs swerve depend upon the dry adiabatic lapse rate? :grin: Good grief!

The game IS the teacher.

I have to question how well anyone can play pool while dwelling on nomenclature and theory.

 

[TheThaiger]

No, Tim, I don't. There's no victory or aspect that I'm "gloating" over. In my book, what you quote is called being sarcastic -- or even sardonic -- but not gloating. Come on, now. You should be better with your own language than that.

I stand by gloating.

gloat/glōt/
Verb:
Contemplate or dwell on another's misfortune with malignant pleasure.


Why else would you repeatedly highlight the actions of another poster, if not to gain malignant pleasure?

 

[TheThaiger]

Doesn't the whether of squirt vs swerve depend upon the dry adiabatic lapse rate? :grin: Good grief!

The game IS the teacher.

I have to question how well anyone can play pool while dwelling on nomenclature and theory.

This board is a disaster for aspiring pool players the world over.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I have to question how well anyone can play pool while dwelling on nomenclature and theory.

I have to question how many you think are playing while on the internet.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

This board is a disaster for aspiring pool players the world over.

Even though we have a bona fide Englishman here? How can that possibly be?

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

The good news is the Game, when understood is virtually perfect

Doesn't the whether of squirt vs swerve depend upon the dry adiabatic lapse rate? :grin: Good grief!

The game IS the teacher.

I have to question how well anyone can play pool while dwelling on nomenclature and theory.

That's funny, most of these "confusing concepts" have nothing to do with playing the game well. If anything it's the contrary.

Remember "it's easy to make pocket billiards difficult, and difficult to make the Game easy".

My position has always been to control the spin/deflection/veer with consistent speed control and if you watch the top pros you will see we ALL use a consistent cue angle to also control spin/deflection/veer.

The good news is the Game, when understood is virtually perfect (with correct rules), and when done properly you don't have to allow for spin and deflection/veer. This is done by understanding speed control and how to create the proper shaft angle from your bridge to the cue ball. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

I just hope you don't play for your hard earned money

CJ,

I'm in New Orleans, so dealing with different conditions day in & day out on different table clothes is 'normal'.

I use inside more than I use outside. I almost never use excess speed. I'm using spin more to control the cue ball than to pocket balls. I do not use side spin on the money ball unless there is a scratch to be avoided.

Your 'around the ball' shot works just as well even if a ball is not in the way. It can increase or decrease the cut angle & thus the path that the cue ball takes after contact.

The human mind & body is an amazing combination of attributes. I fully believe that the subconscious mind can make ones body make the necessary adjustments in order to perform the task at hand. It really is not that 'difficult' just as the 'J' piston stroke is not that 'difficult'.

Would you suggest telling Earl & Efren to stop using spin?

For me, playing with no spin would not be fun. It would be like going back to painting houses with a roller & a four(4) inch brush after having painited masterpieces with an artist's brush.

I've never seen an accomplished player that could not use english. I think not being able to use english is a sentence to mediocrity. One might win the games they are suppose to win but they will not win the games that do not roll their way. They will not be able to take the win from the jaws of defeat.

Different strokes for different folks.

Maybe I'm an enigma. But... I'm a happy one.:smile:

Best Regards & Respect,

The more I read your "rants" the more confused you appear. Of course accomplished players can use english. Who said they couldn't??? It was certainly not me, I can use any kind of english and this "goes without saying" that Earl, Efren, Johnny, etc. can too. Professional golfers can also slice, hook, pull, fade, draw (etc.) the golf ball, but that's not how they choose to play. They have a certain shot that they rely on and if they have to they use "spin shots" to get out of trouble, and not if they don't have to. If you like to spin your ball every time by all means "spin it to your hearts delight".

When competing it's best to eliminate or at least reduce unnecessary calculations. I've played a lot with Earl Stickland and he does spin his ball, but does it consistently. He's not putting various random "spins" on the ball, he's using the spin to increase margin of error in his "Pocket Zone". I do this using a "Touch of Inside" and the 3 Part Pocket System to increase my target size (the pocket).

Spinning the cue ball is something you must practice to become comfortable. Is you use a lot of different speeds and spins you will become stuck at a certain intermediate level. I suggest you practice with ONE SPEED and a variety of spins to see how your cue ball reacts. Then reduce your speed and practice the same variety of spins. Notice the difference and be realistic about how difficult it is to make those calculations.

I'm telling you from a LOT of playing and gambling experience. I can do "ALMOST" anything without spin as anyone else can do with spin. The exceptions is when I have to change the natural angle after contacting the rail AND if the cue ball needs to be curved. Those two type shots REQUIRE spin, and every other shot can be done without spinning the cue ball.

I suggest developing ONE consistent shot and try to use it as much as possible, especially under a lot of pressure. If you think spinning the ball all the time is more fun than running out every time.....well.....I just hope you don't play for your hard earned money.:wink: 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[robsnotes4u]

good

The more I read your "rants" the more confused you appear. Of course accomplished players can use english. Who said they couldn't??? It was certainly not me, I can use any kind of english and this "goes without saying" that Earl, Efren, Johnny, etc. can too. Professional golfers can also slice, hook, pull, fade, draw (etc.) the golf ball, but that's not how they choose to play. They have a certain shot that they rely on and if they have to they use "spin shots" to get out of trouble, and not if they don't have to. If you like to spin your ball every time by all means "spin it to your hearts delight".

When competing it's best to eliminate or at least reduce unnecessary calculations. I've played a lot with Earl Stickland and he does spin his ball, but does it consistently. He's not putting various random "spins" on the ball, he's using the spin to increase margin of error in his "Pocket Zone". I do this using a "Touch of Inside" and the 3 Part Pocket System to increase my target size (the pocket).

Spinning the cue ball is something you must practice to become comfortable. Is you use a lot of different speeds and spins you will become stuck at a certain intermediate level. I suggest you practice with ONE SPEED and a variety of spins to see how your cue ball reacts. Then reduce your speed and practice the same variety of spins. Notice the difference and be realistic about how difficult it is to make those calculations.

I'm telling you from a LOT of playing and gambling experience. I can do "ALMOST" anything without spin as anyone else can do with spin. The exceptions is then I have to change the natural angle after contacting the rail AND if the cue ball needs to be curved. Those two type shots REQUIRE spin, and every other shot can be done without spinning the cue ball.

I suggest developing ONE consistent shot and try to use it as much as possible, especially under a lot of pressure. If you think spinning the ball all the time is more fun than running out every time.....well.....I just hope you don't play for your hard earned money.:wink: 'The Game is the Teacher'

That could be the very best post I have read on AZ. I have friends that would rather spin the ball around 3 or 4 rails because it looks cool, rather than playing a stop shot.

Thank you.

 

[madmiller]

Thanks again, CJ! Your posts are more than helpful.
Please, can you describe "hammer drill" that you were talking about? How it's done. I was trying to find it here , but I guess, I got lost in so many pages lol

 

[Patrick Johnson]

CJ:
...most of these "confusing concepts" have nothing to do with playing the game well. If anything it's the contrary.

That's only true if you're confused by them.

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

if you can , it may open up a whole new world

Thanks again, CJ! Your posts are more than helpful.
Please, can you describe "hammer drill" that you were talking about? How it's done. I was trying to find it here , but I guess, I got lost in so many pages lol

I was taught a way to generate more power in the hands/fingers by using a hammer. Generating kenetic energy to the tip of the hammer "can" be like generating it to the tip of the cue stick.

I grip the hammer exactly like a grip a pool cue and hammer a nail, then I pick up the cue and feel the same motion in my hand and how it transfers to the tip. I drive 5 nails, and each time take the cue to see how they "can" relate to one another to generate a relayed force with my wrists/fingers.

Then I take it to the pool table and shoot straght in shots trying to FEEL the same motion. The tip of the pool cue is where you hit the cue ball with as the tip of the hammer is where you drive the nail with. If you can't FEEL the similarities then this is simply NOT for you, if you can , it may open up a whole new world.

It has done wonders for my game because I rely on my wrist/ fingers not only to generate speed and accuracy, but to also give myself maximum FEEL/TOUCH.

After all, this game is played "in the hands" where you get the maximum "feel feedback" and develop the "Touch" for the Game. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[One Pocket John]

This is correct, there's no need to hit the top of the cue ball for follow, just elevate your bridge.

When playing and watching players like Buddy and many other top pros we all (almost) angle our cue towards the bottom of the cue ball. Players like Bustemante actually cue the ball BELOW the cue ball (when aiming, before contact).

From my experience when I use a level cue it leads to making mistakes. When spinning the cue ball with a level cue it seems to deflect MORE than the spin curves it back. All I know is I've tried the "level cue" thing more than a few times with the same results. I miss WAY too many shots!!!

With a slightly elevated cue I use a speed that deflects and spins the same amount so there's no need for adjusting. This is from my experience, but it seems to be congruent with most the pros I've competed against. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Its odd that you should bring this up. Reading it jogged my memory, my instructor some 20 years ago told me to always shot "downhill" and to check the elevation of my cue.

What I do now is to raise my bridge fo high spin and then elevate the butt of the cue until the cue tip is pointed at the horizontal center of the OB. The elevation naturally depends on how close the QB and OB are.

OH yeah, I am one of those guys that has always used what I call helping spin to turn the OB into the pocket. This morning, after reading you post on spin I decided to quit using the helping spin and practiced for about a half an hour staying on the vertical center of the QB. Pretty cool.

Thanks for all the suggestions CJ you have changed my game in a positve direction.

Just gotta practice more. :smile:

If your ever up St. Louis way let me know, I'll buy you a Steak & Shake Hambuger or a sack of White Castles. :smile:

John

 

[One Pocket John]

I was taught a way to generate more power in the hands/fingers by using a hammer. Generating kenetic energy to the tip of the hammer "can" be like generating it to the tip of the cue stick.

I grip the hammer exactly like a grip a pool cue and hammer a nail, then I pick up the cue and feel the same motion in my hand and how it transfers to the tip. I drive 5 nails, and each time take the cue to see how they "can" relate to one another to generate a relayed force with my wrists/fingers.

Then I take it to the pool table and shoot straght in shots trying to FEEL the same motion. The tip of the pool cue is where you hit the cue ball with as the tip of the hammer is where you drive the nail with. If you can't FEEL the similarities then this is simply NOT for you, if you can , it may open up a whole new world.

It has done wonders for my game because I rely on my wrist/ fingers not only to generate speed and accuracy, but to also give myself maximum FEEL/TOUCH.

After all, this game is played "in the hands" where you get the maximum "feel feedback" and develop the "Touch" for the Game. 'The Game is the Teacher'

So the cue ball is the nail and not the OB. Correct?

John

 

[CJ Wiley]

We're ALL confused by them because they're designed to be confusing.

That's only true if you're confused by them.

pj
chgo

We're ALL confused by them because they're designed to be confusing. You're just trying to act like you know something (semantics) that doesn't carry much weight to playing better. Discussing potential problems without focusing on the solutions is a one way ticket to "pool purgatory".

Many players (including myself) have reached the highest levels without making the things you speak of A BIG DEAL. It's very simple how to adjust for deflection/hot mustard/squirt/sugar spin/spicy ketchup/swerve/syrup spin/veer and whatever else you can come up with to confuse curious players. These things are like the "shank", slice, hook of golf - understood, but not dwelled on for developing positive fundamentals and techniques.

The fact of the matter is you can become a champion player by learning how to eliminate these factors. Talking about them to make them appear important to the game is very deceptive. And very unnecessary to developing and maturing as a pool player, then truly enjoying the Game. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Masayoshi]

Yes, but I think CJ has been saying it's a "best practice", which I question, especially for learning players.

pj
chgo

Its probably not best for beginners or even intermediates for that matter. I think this, method of accounting for spin is when you get to the level where you HAVE to make (for example) that long cross table thin cut with outside english instead of just being able to duck or play 2 way. The best way to do so with high percentage is to hit it with the speed and elevation where curve (and throw) cancels out deflection. Naturally, some players will be more comfortable with more speed and more elevation, while others will prefer less speed and less elevation. CJ is just saying get used to that style of play even though it is against what is commonly taught to lower level players.

We are all learning, btw, even higher level players.

 

[CJ Wiley]

the "differences that make the difference" between winning and ..........not winning.

Its probably not best for beginners or even intermediates for that matter. I think this, method of accounting for spin is when you get to the level where you HAVE to make that long cross table thin cut with outside english.

The only way to do so with any reasonable consistency is to hit it with the speed where curve cancels out deflection. We are all learning, btw. Even higher level players.

That's correct. My techniques may be tough to grasp for beginner players, and at the intermediate level they must be addressed to move on to the next level.

You understand, so you're obviously an advanced player, Masayashi, at the correct speed, curve cancels out deflection. This is vitally important to understand, then take to the table to experience and "fine tune". This, at the higher levels will be one of the "differences that make the difference" between winning and ..........not winning. :wink:

 

[Masayoshi]

That's correct. My techniques may be tough to grasp for beginner players, and at the intermediate level they must be addressed to move on to the next level.

You understand, so you're obviously an advanced player, Masayashi, at the correct speed, curve cancels out deflection. This is vitally important to understand, then take to the table to experience and "fine tune". This, at the higher levels will be one of the "differences that make the difference" between winning and ..........not winning. :wink:

You post too fast, lol. I revised my post a little bit.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Different strokes for different folks

So the cue ball is the nail and not the OB. Correct?

John

Yes, the cue ball is your primary target, like the nail in this example. The tip of the hammer is the tip of the cue, and the hand moves the same way (in a much smaller motion) to generate energy to the "tip".

Make sure you realize this is a SMALL MOTION with the pool cue. The hammer just gives you the idea and feeling for how it works.

I advise, for this drill to hold the hammer and your pool cue exactly the same and see how that FEELS. I can show you very quickly in person, but in writing you are going to have to figure it out.

I'm available to answer questions if you aren't clear. This is tougher for some than others and if it doesn't make sense, just put in on a shelf.

"Different strokes for different folks," there's personal preferences to playing this game really well and I"m sharing one that made a huge difference in my development. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[One Pocket John]

Yes, the cue ball is your primary target, like the nail in this example. The tip of the hammer is the tip of the cue, and the hand moves the same way (in a much smaller motion) to generate energy to the "tip".

Make sure you realize this is a SMALL MOTION with the pool cue. The hammer just gives you the idea and feeling for how it works.

I advise, for this drill to hold the hammer and your pool cue exactly the same and see how that FEELS. I can show you very quickly in person, but in writing you are going to have to figure it out.

I'm available to answer questions if you aren't clear. This is tougher for some than others and if it doesn't make sense, just put in on a shelf.

"Different strokes for different folks," there's personal preferences to playing this game really well and I"m sharing one that made a huge difference in my development. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Thanks CJ

John