WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[lfigueroa]

We appreciate your cold, hard facts Lou. Your input of cold, hard facts is always a breath of fresh air and sun to our otherwise warm, soft, rhetoric.

We're also glad your science and physics is holding up in your league play, tournaments and money matches. Be sure to keep us updated kindly. :wave3:

I appreciate you being here with your theories.

Lou Figueroa

 

[FranCrimi]

Fran,

Squirt (cue ball deflection) does not vary with shot speed. Squirt depends only on the endmass of the shaft and the amount of tip offset from center. The amount of swerve varies with shot speed, shot distance, cue elevation, the amount and type of english, and conditions. Therefore, the combined effect of both squirt and swerve (AKA "squerve," "net cue ball deflection," or "effective cue ball deflection") does vary with speed.

I think the biggest cause for confusion and arguments in threads like this is terminology. When some people use the term "squirt" or the phrase "cue ball deflection," they actually mean the "net effect of both squirt and swerve." I think it is best to distinguish between the effects (to have a full understanding of how to adjust appropriately in various situations), or at least to be clear when one is referring to the combined effect or not.

For more info, see:

squirt (cue ball deflection) speed effects
squirt, swerve, and throw confusion
squerve​

Regards,
Dave

Guys, I know the difference between squirt, swerve and squerve. Give me a little credit, please.

If a cue ball that was struck with side spin is still sliding, then it is still squirting. The point at which it stops squirting can be controlled by speed. That is a real and legitimate relationship. If you would rather associate that relationship with swerve, then that's fine. But I'm clear about what I wrote.

 

[nobcitypool]

I would add to my previous post that I think pool, and most sports for that matter, is a lot like dancing. You can go out and dance rock & roll or other music just by feel and moving with the music. You can take lessons and learn the steps and subsequently be a decent dancer. But the professionals are well past that. They add style and flair. The professionals aren't thinking about the steps when they're dancing, they become one with the music and their grace and movements reflect that.

 

[swest]

It's just not possible to play with the top of your tip with a levelish cue. This can be an important element of precise cue ball contact and control. imho

So one consequence of elevated cue butt is to insure 'top of tip' striking? I will confess that I did not give enough attention to the discussion (earlier in this thread) about the 'top of tip'. I have to go back and reread.

Also, is that what cookie man's response to me was about?

Ever just play around with it. Go back and look at Kiamco play, he very rarely goes above center cb but still rolls the ball around the table.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...your pocket billiard problems.
(swerve/veer/squirt) They seem to be bothering you

C'mon, CJ - switching from petty and childish to petty and condescending isn't progress. A former champion and current captain of the US Mosconi team should be above this kind of stuff.

pj
chgo

 

[swest]

Ok, I went back and collected the posts on 'top of tip':

You can pre set your wrist with any grip you choose. You hit the cue ball mostly with the top of your tip, so you want to make sure you control the top of the cue. Notice what part of YOUR grip contols the TOP of your pool cue as you stroke the cue ball. This is probably where your hand gets the maximum feel and touch. I'm suggesting it's important to know this info!

ok i will give the hitting with the top of tip a try. I need to know what this will do before i try it though? It is for power or cue ball control, what am i looking for

It's for precision and can be a reminder to keep the correct angle with your cue. Angling the cue slightly down, towards the bottom of the cue ball is recommended, so you make contact with the top portion of your tip. This also verifies that it's not advisable to use a "level cue".

So u think u can't hit center cb or even use high english with the top of your tip? This is a fairly common technique.

Center ball you need at least an 8º angle on the cue. For one tip of high english, you need a 15º angle. Fairly common technique? Maybe. It's called a partial masse' or low jump shot, depending on if any spin is also used. Just take your shaft and hold it in front of you against the cb. Then you can tilt the cue up until you see the top of the tip hitting the cb. Very easy to check.

I'd be interested to hear how you hit the top of the ball with the top of your tip (without over-elevating your cue).

You don't have to hit the top of the ball to use forward rolling english, and you certainly don't have to over elevate your cue. In fact you actually hit closer to center cb just slightly downward.

This is correct, there's no need to hit the top of the cue ball for follow, just elevate your bridge.

When playing and watching players like Buddy and many other top pros we all (almost) angle our cue towards the bottom of the cue ball. Players like Bustemante actually cue the ball BELOW the cue ball (when aiming, before contact).

From my experience when I use a level cue it leads to making mistakes. When spinning the cue ball with a level cue it seems to deflect MORE than the spin curves it back. All I know is I've tried the "level cue" thing more than a few times with the same results. I miss WAY too many shots!!!

With a slightly elevated cue I use a speed that deflects and spins the same amount so there's no need for adjusting. This is from my experience, but it seems to be congruent with most the pros I've competed against. 'The Game is the Teacher'

So u think u can't hit center cb or even use high english with the top of your tip? This is a fairly common technique.

I'd be interested to hear how you hit the top of the ball with the top of your tip (without over-elevating your cue).

You don't have to hit the top of the ball to use forward rolling english, and you certainly don't have to over elevate your cue. In fact you actually hit closer to center cb just slightly downward.

This is correct, there's no need to hit the top of the cue ball for follow, just elevate your bridge.

So this "fairly common technique" can't be described in any rational way.

Par for this thread.

This technique sounds like the way warren kiamco shots to me, his follow looks to me like he is at most a half tip above center cue ball. Now it also looks to me like he hits the cue ball with the top part of his tip lol maybe im loosen it I really like kiamco and his technique is very interesting to me. I have to play some league tomorrow and will try it.

In all that, I didn't really see any any explanations as to why top of tip striking is more accurate or precise, nor a description of how one could possibly apply topspin with the top of your tip.

And, by the way, I really don't buy this statement:

That's why you'll see the top pros shooting down on the cue ball most of the time.

so, I'm going to need further convincing before I throw out a fundamental principle that I have been taught over and over (by top-level instructors), and which I have attempted to teach my own teammates.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

CJ:
It's just not possible to play with the top of your tip with a levelish cue. This can be an important element of precise cue ball contact and control. imho

swest:
So one consequence of elevated cue butt is to insure 'top of tip' striking?

This "top of tip" idea doesn't make sense to me. Unless you're putting backspin on the CB it's impossible to hit it with the top of your tip, no matter how far you jack up. And if you are putting backspin on the CB, hitting it with the top of your tip is what's expected.

I'll be interested to hear what it's really supposed to mean.

pj
chgo

 

[swest]

And, by the way, I went back and watched Kiamco and, while it is true that his warmup strokes are usually below center (usually), his actual stroke depends on what he's doing with the cue ball. For example, if you pause at just the right time - 48:56 - (difficult to do, and difficult to see if you don't pause or otherwise slow down his stroke), you will see that he warmed up below center and struck above center.

[edit] As Jerry Briesath is fond of saying, "Whitey never lies." [/edit]

I'm going to go back and review that video further for additional examples.

 

[swest]

This "top of tip" idea doesn't make sense to me. Unless you're putting backspin on the CB it's impossible to hit it with the top of your tip, no matter how far you jack up. And if you are putting backspin on the CB, hitting it with the top of your tip is what's expected.

I'll be interested to hear what it's really supposed to mean.

pj
chgo

As would I.

 

[swest]

.
.
.
Kiamco and, while it is true that his warmup strokes are usually below center (usually), his actual stroke depends on what he's doing with the cue ball..
.
.

Two more excellent examples occur with the 4-ball and the 7-ball at 49:30...

 

[swest]

And, while this is, admittedly, a small sample set, I dispute the notion that Warren Kiamco always, or usually, strikes below center CB even when he is using follow.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I dispute the notion that Warren Kiamco always, or usually, strikes below center CB even when he is using follow.

Or ever - except those occasions when he might hit relatively softly with "drag draw" to "roll through" the CB a short distance.

pj
chgo

 

[Pay Up Sucker]

I tried the top of the tip technique last night. It is not hard to do and you just need the slightest of elevation. I tried it during my league games and was impressed with it and I see a lot of potential in it. It really makes you pay attention and stay in control of your cue and gives you a more precise hit on the cue ball. It felt like it really opened up the cue ball and I had 5 times the amount of contact points on the "cue ball" than normal. It is true you can use follow hitting just a touch above center with this technique and it works but feels a bit forced. You can also get some serious draw also! I do not know if I was actually hitting with the top of the tip but it sure felt like it. I can see myself using this as a situational technique but not on every shot because it really seems to change the pace of my game. Over all it is a very good technique and very kiamco like...my opinion.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

[The "top of tip" technique] really makes you pay attention and stay in control of your cue and gives you a more precise hit on the cue ball.

This is probably true, but you don't need this technique for that. Just pay closer attention.

It is true you can use follow hitting just a touch above center with this technique

It's impossible to hit the CB with the top of your tip without putting (at least a little) backspin on the CB.

pj
chgo

 

[JoeW]

That was clear and concise, Dave, thanks.

Our points are more about styles and techniques becoming refined so the Game is less complicated. I've had many discussion with accomplished players and we are alway in the "solution mode" as related to pool knowledge.

I'm just not convinced that beginners would benefit from understanding what can go wrong in their stroke and not have someone emphasize what can go right if they have the correct fundamentals.

Keeping your cue level and hitting "center ball" leads to the "what can go wrong" syndrome. Maybe there are some beginners on this Forum that can tell us why they wouldn't want to learn the advanced basics from the start? Then they can realize why their stroke is producing positive results rather than why they are having to adjust for negative "side effects".

In other words instead of talking about swerve/veer/squirt issues we talk about how to play in a way that drastically reduces these unwanted "side effects". That's the mode, after deep reflection, that seems like the best for rapid improvement. 'The Game is the Teacher'

The best "teacher" I ever had was a professor in graduate school who required us to write a 20 - 50 page term paper without any fault finding comments. He said that our discipline was full of carping, fault finding and complaining. He required us to discuss what we knew and to leave out all the b****ing.

I probably learned more in this class than in any other class I ever took.

Critical thinking has its place, after one has mastered the field.

I think you are on the right track CJ. Keep it going.

On a side note I used to teach a Criminology course from the perspective of how to make your own criminal. It was lots of fun and people seemed to learn a lot.

 

[Pay Up Sucker]

This is probably true, but you don't need this technique for that. Just pay closer attention.


It's impossible to hit the CB with the top of your tip without putting (at least a little) backspin on the CB.

pj
chgo

When trying it with follow i noticed you had to stroke harder than normal and it really felt like i was forcing the cue ball to roll forward. It looked like the cue ball didn't want to roll but i made it roll. Thats what i noticed.

I dont know if this makes sense but it was like "threading a needle" kind of thing hitting with the top of the tip?

 

[TheThaiger]

Ok, I went back and collected the posts on 'top of tip':

​

In all that, I didn't really see any any explanations as to why top of tip striking is more accurate or precise, nor a description of how one could possibly apply topspin with the top of your tip.

And, by the way, I really don't buy this statement:



so, I'm going to need further convincing before I throw out a fundamental principle that I have been taught over and over (by top-level instructors), and which I have attempted to teach my own teammates.

Impressive quoting. I have no idea how it's done. Frankly, it scares me...

 

[nobcitypool]

This "top of tip" idea doesn't make sense to me. Unless you're putting backspin on the CB it's impossible to hit it with the top of your tip, no matter how far you jack up. And if you are putting backspin on the CB, hitting it with the top of your tip is what's expected.

I'll be interested to hear what it's really supposed to mean.

pj
chgo

Patrick, if the person you're trying to discuss this with cannot readily picture a round ball with the cue tip located above the horizontal axis and then grasp the idea of the cue having to be angled up at more than 45 degrees in order to have any portion of the top half tip contact the ball above that horizontal axis, you're wasting your time. Combine that with the concept of creating follow roll on the CB with this technique further confirms their limited spatial relationship capability. CJ could tell some of the sycophants if you stare at the CB intensely for 30 seconds, it will jump off the table and they would believe him. Worse, they'd go to the nearest table and stare at the CB for an hour two. Worse yet, I'm sure a couple would come back and swear that the CB actually moved.

 

[swest]

Impressive quoting. I have no idea how it's done. Frankly, it scares me...

Be very afraid...


I just picked up all of the relevant stuff and constructed (using notepad) a sequence of quotes with:

[ Q U O T E=name]
stuff
[ / Q U O T E]

That can all be done outside of the "Reply to Thread" editor, and then just copied and pasted in...

(Note that I had to include spaces in the above, so that the formatting software wouldn't interpret it... you want QUOTE with no spaces.)

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I went back and watched Kiamco and, while it is true that his warmup strokes are usually below center (usually), his actual stroke depends on what he's doing with the cue ball. For example, if you pause at just the right time - 48:56 - (difficult to do, and difficult to see if you don't pause or otherwise slow down his stroke), you will see that he warmed up below center and struck above center.

[edit] As Jerry Briesath is fond of saying, "Whitey never lies." [/edit]

I'm going to go back and review that video further for additional examples.

There are dozens of examples in both videos of Kiamco using a level stroke to hit the ball above the CB's equator with the bottom portion of the tip. Here's a capture of the one you mentioned above. To the right is one taken of some other guy who strokes the rock well above the center for follow... or at least he used to in his prime.

Sometimes we're really not at all sure of what we're doing until someone gets a stop-action photo of it. Dr. Dave and his high-speed camera demonstrated this with some top players, and published the results for all to see. To attempt to demean his (and many others here) fine contributions to the understanding of this game is a slight at the very least.