How about the 8-ball, thats the follow shot.
WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?
- Thread starter CJ Wiley
- Start date
How about the 8-ball, thats the follow shot.
YES! This is a really important technique and it's rarely discussed. Good catch!
I would say he was pretty close to center, cueing on a downward angle, and achieving forward roll.
Pay Up Sucker
Banned
If your asking if Cj uses the top of the tip? from what i see on his miserk,earl videos he defiantly doesn't use it. The most noticeable player i think uses it, is kiamco.
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And you thought we were enemies,lol.
Not suggesting you do anything extremely different, but play around with it. No extreme elevation, try hitting center ball and achieve a forward roll.
Wow, have you guys been busy in this thread today. I checked it before going to work this morning, and tonight I had to go through 5-6 pages to get caught up
CJ, I am a beginner. Just 3 years of playing, APA 5, and while i have some small sense that I am beginning to understand some of the basics, the reality is that I am still what must be considered a beginner.
I'm saying this in the thread as opposed to via PM because I think it ought to be in the conversation for everyone. I suspect that there are a great many "beginners" that are reading this thread, and lots of other material here on AZB. I'm simply not shy and will openly admit to it.
I also believe that if most beginners get past the first page or two of posts in a thread, they are interested enough in the conversation. You and the others here don't need to change the level of the discussion simply because there are beginners reading it. If they are like me, we can understand the basic premise well enough, we just can't execute things like you folks, and don't have the experience to guide us. Keeping these concepts and discussions at a high level is very informative.
If I don't get something, I'll ask. And I'll usually explain that I'm a beginner and that is likely why i don't get it. That would be the only time that I personally would like to see the level of the discussion brought down. Obviously I can't speak for any other beginners out here in AZB land, but I expect that many will feel the same way. If this stuff is too drrp for them, they aren't hanging around, watching people hurl insults at each other and finding ways to snipe at one another.
Seriously, I have asked many basic questions over the last 3 years, and have gotten many helpful responses from the grrat folks here.
I love reading about this game, and how it is approached at the highest levels. Don't dumb it down, please.
Imagine trying to put maximum topspin by coming UP on the center
Yes, I'm glad you're looking at the Filipinos because they perform this technique very well. Bustemante looks like he's drawing the ball and then comes up on the center to apply the "topspin".
Imagine trying to put maximum topspin on a tennis ball, would you start below center and come up to apply maximum spin? You can do this with the top of the tip like it's a "Pin".
There's something special about using and playing with the TOP of your tip that we call "Pinning" the ball. If you've never heard this term, then you are getting into some knowledge that will do wonders for your game.
When you start "Pinning" the cue ball it reacts with "pinpoint" accuracy and you can draw and follow the ball with ease. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Yes, I'm glad you're looking at the Filipinos because they perform this technique very well. Bustemante looks like he's drawing the ball and then comes up on the center to apply the "topspin".
Imagine trying to put maximum topspin on a tennis ball, would you start below center and come up to apply maximum spin? You can do this with the top of the tip like it's a "Pin".
There's something special about using and playing with the TOP of your tip that we call "Pinning" the ball. If you've never heard this term, then you are getting into some knowledge that will do wonders for your game.
When you start "Pinning" the cue ball it reacts with "pinpoint" accuracy and you can draw and follow the ball with ease. 'The Game is the Teacher'
I'm very glad to hear your opinion!
I'm very glad to hear your opinion! It seems like I'm constantly being advised that some of the suggestions, systems and/or techniques are too advanced for beginners.
I'm under the impression that even if they are advanced it's better to be exposed to how a pro thinks and plays. Then, as I often say, if it doesn't make sense just put in on a shelf and it will be there if you ever want to take it down and experiment with it.
Thanks again for your honest opinion and I hope you continue to enjoy our suggestions and techniques. CJ Wiley
Wow, have you guys been busy in this thread today. I checked it before going to work this morning, and tonight I had to go through 5-6 pages to get caught up
CJ, I am a beginner. Just 3 years of playing, APA 5, and while i have some small sense that I am beginning to understand some of the basics, the reality is that I am still what must be considered a beginner.
I'm saying this in the thread as opposed to via PM because I think it ought to be in the conversation for everyone. I suspect that there are a great many "beginners" that are reading this thread, and lots of other material here on AZB. I'm simply not shy and will openly admit to it.
I also believe that if most beginners get past the first page or two of posts in a thread, they are interested enough in the conversation. You and the others here don't need to change the level of the discussion simply because there are beginners reading it. If they are like me, we can understand the basic premise well enough, we just can't execute things like you folks, and don't have the experience to guide us. Keeping these concepts and discussions at a high level is very informative.
If I don't get something, I'll ask. And I'll usually explain that I'm a beginner and that is likely why i don't get it. That would be the only time that I personally would like to see the level of the discussion brought down. Obviously I can't speak for any other beginners out here in AZB land, but I expect that many will feel the same way. If this stuff is too drrp for them, they aren't hanging around, watching people hurl insults at each other and finding ways to snipe at one another.
Seriously, I have asked many basic questions over the last 3 years, and have gotten many helpful responses from the grrat folks here.
I love reading about this game, and how it is approached at the highest levels. Don't dumb it down, please.
I'm very glad to hear your opinion! It seems like I'm constantly being advised that some of the suggestions, systems and/or techniques are too advanced for beginners.
I'm under the impression that even if they are advanced it's better to be exposed to how a pro thinks and plays. Then, as I often say, if it doesn't make sense just put in on a shelf and it will be there if you ever want to take it down and experiment with it.
Thanks again for your honest opinion and I hope you continue to enjoy our suggestions and techniques. CJ Wiley
When you use the top part of the tip it's like hitting it with a "Pin"
This is not what I'm talking about. Just elevate your cue slightly and put the tip below center and you will see the top part of it is contacting the cue ball (the "top of the tip" is from the center of the TIP to the TOP of the TIP). Now you have to strike that part of the cue ball with the tip coming up slightly to impart the "topspin" or what's commonly called "high english".
When you use the top part of the tip it's like hitting it with a "Pin". We, road players called this "Pinning the Balls" and it gets incredible results on the cue ball with apparent ease. This is advanced, yet simple to use and benefitial right away to focus on using a particular part of the tip to hit the cue ball with. {FOCUS on Specifics and you'll become more accurate}
Practice this when you get time: Hit the Cue Ball slightly BELOW center and make the tip come UP on the center to apply "high english". This isn't something I can explain perfectly in writing, like most systems and techniques you MUST experience this ON THE TABLE.
You will generate a lot of topspin on the cueball without going above center. I know it's not the "conventional" method, and as I've said before "playing at the top level requires unconventional experimenting," and "thinking outside the box". I beleve this is true with most sports,games and even business practices. imho
This is a very crude image of what hitting the top half of the CB with the top half of the cue tip would look like. Note the angle of the cue. How can one accomplish this with less of an angle on the cue? And how can you generate follow with this stroke at this angle?
[/IMG]
This is not what I'm talking about. Just elevate your cue slightly and put the tip below center and you will see the top part of it is contacting the cue ball (the "top of the tip" is from the center of the TIP to the TOP of the TIP). Now you have to strike that part of the cue ball with the tip coming up slightly to impart the "topspin" or what's commonly called "high english".
When you use the top part of the tip it's like hitting it with a "Pin". We, road players called this "Pinning the Balls" and it gets incredible results on the cue ball with apparent ease. This is advanced, yet simple to use and benefitial right away to focus on using a particular part of the tip to hit the cue ball with. {FOCUS on Specifics and you'll become more accurate}
Practice this when you get time: Hit the Cue Ball slightly BELOW center and make the tip come UP on the center to apply "high english". This isn't something I can explain perfectly in writing, like most systems and techniques you MUST experience this ON THE TABLE.
You will generate a lot of topspin on the cueball without going above center. I know it's not the "conventional" method, and as I've said before "playing at the top level requires unconventional experimenting," and "thinking outside the box". I beleve this is true with most sports,games and even business practices. imho
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I am a beginner too. Started playing 4 years ago. I was always wondering why I was so inconsistent in my game and why sometimes I beat players that got 30-40 years of experience playing. Also my defiance helps, I guess lol A couple of guys that have been playing pool for a long time told me that I would never be able to play like them, especially because they got so much experience and I was just a newbie, which just pissed me off and made me try harder. Now they wouldn't wanna play for money with me!
Trying to understand what's being said here on the forum, copying what I see on videos where pros shoot and constant trying to apply new knowledge helped me to slowly but surely improve my game. Some of the stuff that I read here I " real eyes'd" I was doing by mistake( what I thought) when practicing, shooting the same shot thousand of times and trying to figure out why sometimes I miss and why sometimes I make it 100 times in a row.
Can't wait to get my dvd with CJ's secrets on it. So far everything that CJ told me either here or what I found in his posts worked for me! Went up a few skill levels of the game during the last month!!!
Trying to understand what's being said here on the forum, copying what I see on videos where pros shoot and constant trying to apply new knowledge helped me to slowly but surely improve my game. Some of the stuff that I read here I " real eyes'd" I was doing by mistake( what I thought) when practicing, shooting the same shot thousand of times and trying to figure out why sometimes I miss and why sometimes I make it 100 times in a row.
Can't wait to get my dvd with CJ's secrets on it. So far everything that CJ told me either here or what I found in his posts worked for me! Went up a few skill levels of the game during the last month!!!
CJ, that certainly sheds different light on this "technique" than what was being described. Remember, I'm right brained, I take what people say quite literally. You see the words I highlighted. Can you shed some additional light on what you mean by "make the tip come UP"? I'm all too willing to try it, I'd just like to understand HOW to try it CORRECTLY.
Way to go, dude! Now try to work on that anger, will ya'? :grin: Just kidding. Anger works well in these forums!
Best,
Mike
"you must form a relationship between your hand and your tip"
I thought the "Left" side* was the literal side?:wink:
One thing that I've been trying to explain and it's very challenging "you must form a relationship between your hand and your tip". The "hammer drill" is something that I've used with success to teach how the hand/wrist/fingers move the cue and deliver "energy" to the tip.
This is a force that transfers through the tip into the cue ball. So the wrist/hand/fingers effect the tip whether you're aware of it or not. I recommend being aware of it and seeking to strengthen the relationship and direct effect that your hand has on the tip THROUGH the pool cue.
I know this is a round about way to answer your question, and I think you can understand it's easy for me to show and difficult for me to explain. Connecting your hand and tip is ESSENTIAL to at least explore.
So with that said, hit some balls with your cue angled so the tip is BELOW center and use your hand/wrist/fingers to make the top edge of your cue go up (using your shooting hand/fingers) to produce topspin on the cue ball.
Think in terms of putting topspin on a basketball by hitting up on it BELOW it's center. You wouldn't hit the basketball HIGH on the ball to produce maximum topspin you would "brush up on the ball", LOW to HIGH.
Please don't take this literally, I'm just trying to give you a visual analogy to help "get the idea" of using the top of the tip to generate topspin (high english). If that doesn't make sense I'll try in another way later tonight, for now I have to go play a game myself.
*
Left Hemisphere
Rational
Responds to verbal instructions
Problem solves by logically and sequentially looking at the parts of things
Looks at differences
Is planned and structured
Prefers established, certain information
Prefers talking and writing
Prefers multiple choice tests
Controls feelings
Prefers ranked authority structures
I thought the "Left" side* was the literal side?:wink:
One thing that I've been trying to explain and it's very challenging "you must form a relationship between your hand and your tip". The "hammer drill" is something that I've used with success to teach how the hand/wrist/fingers move the cue and deliver "energy" to the tip.
This is a force that transfers through the tip into the cue ball. So the wrist/hand/fingers effect the tip whether you're aware of it or not. I recommend being aware of it and seeking to strengthen the relationship and direct effect that your hand has on the tip THROUGH the pool cue.
I know this is a round about way to answer your question, and I think you can understand it's easy for me to show and difficult for me to explain. Connecting your hand and tip is ESSENTIAL to at least explore.
So with that said, hit some balls with your cue angled so the tip is BELOW center and use your hand/wrist/fingers to make the top edge of your cue go up (using your shooting hand/fingers) to produce topspin on the cue ball.
Think in terms of putting topspin on a basketball by hitting up on it BELOW it's center. You wouldn't hit the basketball HIGH on the ball to produce maximum topspin you would "brush up on the ball", LOW to HIGH.
Please don't take this literally, I'm just trying to give you a visual analogy to help "get the idea" of using the top of the tip to generate topspin (high english). If that doesn't make sense I'll try in another way later tonight, for now I have to go play a game myself.
*
Left Hemisphere
Rational
Responds to verbal instructions
Problem solves by logically and sequentially looking at the parts of things
Looks at differences
Is planned and structured
Prefers established, certain information
Prefers talking and writing
Prefers multiple choice tests
Controls feelings
Prefers ranked authority structures
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Pay Up Sucker
Banned
ahhhhh you fell for it cj :grin: you just got hustled lol
Looks like he's not the only one in this thread.:wink:
Alright, I spent a few minutes hitting balls before you posted that. I was attempting to do what you described figuring it had to be along those lines for it to possibly work. To be fair, I hit 20 to 30 balls, hardly enough to develop expertise. I tried hitting them full ball straight on. Where I noticed the most distinct difference was hitting straight on with more force. When done with two tips high, the CB tends to pause then proceed forward whereas with this method, the CB seemed to more immediately follow the OB almost as if the CB and OB were close and you push the CB through the OB. I didn't try any significant larger cut angles so I don't have any further opinion than that.
Based on what I saw in my limited experiment, I can see this has potential for generating greater forward spin if executed properly. Does what I described sound like what I should have expected were I executing it correctly? Assuming it does, aside from the occasion where you need a powerful force follow, how else would you apply it and what other benefits do you see? Are you also saying this is the technique you would use for most/all shots where you'd want to apply follow spin or is this more situational specific?
And you are absolutely correct, I have my brain mixed up. LOL WTF was I thinking? I am about as left brain dominant as one can get I think.
Based on what I saw in my limited experiment, I can see this has potential for generating greater forward spin if executed properly. Does what I described sound like what I should have expected were I executing it correctly? Assuming it does, aside from the occasion where you need a powerful force follow, how else would you apply it and what other benefits do you see? Are you also saying this is the technique you would use for most/all shots where you'd want to apply follow spin or is this more situational specific?
And you are absolutely correct, I have my brain mixed up. LOL WTF was I thinking? I am about as left brain dominant as one can get I think.
what we call "Pinning the ball" and it works for draw as well as high english.
I have an unfair advantage, I'm constantly, indirectly being made aware of my RIGHT BRAIN dominance...LoL:wink: Writing on this forum is difficult for me because I'm very creative and to explain the feel/touch/creative part of the game is one of the most challenging things I've ever tried to do. And quite frankly, it's the challenge that makes it interesting to me, so don't think I'm complaining, but it makes my "left brain" hurt at times. :groucho:
Yes, when you use the smaller, more specific part of your tip you get a more immediate transfer of energy. This is what we call "Pinning the ball" (it's like hitting it with a pin) and it works for draw as well as high english.
It's also how to apply the "Touch of Inside" accurately and why It controls the veer/deflection/squirt amounts better than the "conventional way" of hitting the cue ball.
When I talk about "feeling the cue ball", I'm referring to the sense of "Pinning" the ball. The feedback to my hand is noticeably different when this is happening and my precision increases exponentially.
I have an unfair advantage, I'm constantly, indirectly being made aware of my RIGHT BRAIN dominance...LoL:wink: Writing on this forum is difficult for me because I'm very creative and to explain the feel/touch/creative part of the game is one of the most challenging things I've ever tried to do. And quite frankly, it's the challenge that makes it interesting to me, so don't think I'm complaining, but it makes my "left brain" hurt at times. :groucho:
Yes, when you use the smaller, more specific part of your tip you get a more immediate transfer of energy. This is what we call "Pinning the ball" (it's like hitting it with a pin) and it works for draw as well as high english.
It's also how to apply the "Touch of Inside" accurately and why It controls the veer/deflection/squirt amounts better than the "conventional way" of hitting the cue ball.
When I talk about "feeling the cue ball", I'm referring to the sense of "Pinning" the ball. The feedback to my hand is noticeably different when this is happening and my precision increases exponentially.
Pay Up Sucker
Banned
haha ,,,,,