WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[swest]

[regarding kiamco video] Two more excellent examples occur with the 4-ball and the 7-ball at 49:30...

How about the 8-ball, thats the follow shot.

As far as I can tell, it looks like above center striking. I wish I knew how to do frame-by-frame, so I could extract the relevant frame, but, alas, I don't know how.

I've looked all over this video, and I just don't see anything out of the ordinary (with respect to the topic at hand).

 

[swest]

Not suggesting you do anything extremely different, but play around with it. No extreme elevation, try hitting center ball and achieve a forward roll.

Well as long as there is sufficient distance between the CB and the OB, the CB will achieve normal roll (even with center ball striking), and yes, it will have forward roll after OB contact.

 

[swest]

I have re-read the last few pages of this thread, and some of the ideas that are being floated are, well... let's just say that I am forced to acknowledge that they are too advanced for me. I yield.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I have re-read the last few pages of this thread, and some of the ideas that are being floated are, well... let's just say that and I am forced to acknowledge that they are too advanced for me. I yield.

Yes, simple folks like you and I, hopelessly shackled to the laws of ordinary reality, can obviously never hope to play advanced-reality pool. Guess we'll just have to try and be satisfied with simpler methods that can be, you know, described and stuff.

pj
chgo

 

[AtLarge]

... Yes, when you use the smaller, more specific part of your tip you get a more immediate transfer of energy. This is what we call "Pinning the ball" (it's like hitting it with a pin) and it works for draw as well as high english.

It's also how to apply the "Touch of Inside" accurately and why It controls the veer/deflection/squirt amounts better than the "conventional way" of hitting the cue ball. ...

It sounds like you're saying that less of the tip (in, say, square millimeters) contacts the CB when the stick is at a slightly greater downward angle (your angle for "pinning the ball") than when the stick is at a slightly lesser downward angle. Because of the curvature of a tip and its deformation upon contact with the CB, I think that might not be true for some, or even most, shots. But I don't know. Can anyone speak knowledgeably to this point?

Alternatively, could this be another matter that you mean perceptually rather than literally?

 

[Ratta]

It sounds like you're saying that less of the tip (in, say, square millimeters) contacts the CB when the stick is at a slightly greater downward angle (your angle for "pinning the ball") than when the stick is at a slightly lesser downward angle. Because of the curvature of a tip and its deformation upon contact with the CB, I think that might not be true for some, or even most, shots. But I don't know. Can anyone speak knowledgeably to this point?

Alternatively, could this be another matter that you mean perceptually rather than literally?

Hola,
hope i understood AtLarge correctly
You hit the cueball with about 2.5mm to 3 mm of your tip (incl. compression at impact). That should be a good average for both shapes and average tips nowadays (dime/nickel etc).

Anyway it s always necessary to find out, where your reference points are on the cueball. Depending on your stroke, your accouracy, your material! Here you find for yourself where whitey will go with enough practice.

Meaning: If CJ for example hits "his cueball" with a hair of inside, that could be (attention, just an example with a number) 1 mm.
And i for myself would use in this case 2mm of inside-- and would have the same success.

Hope i found the correct vocabulary to show what i mean
If not.....holler at me^^
lg from overseas,

ingo

 

[3RAILKICK]

I thought the "Left" side* was the literal side?:wink:

One thing that I've been trying to explain and it's very challenging "you must form a relationship between your hand and your tip". The "hammer drill" is something that I've used with success to teach how the hand/wrist/fingers move the cue and deliver "energy" to the tip.

This is a force that transfers through the tip into the cue ball. So the wrist/hand/fingers effect the tip whether you're aware of it or not. I recommend being aware of it and seeking to strengthen the relationship and direct effect that your hand has on the tip THROUGH the pool cue.

I know this is a round about way to answer your question, and I think you can understand it's easy for me to show and difficult for me to explain. Connecting your hand and tip is ESSENTIAL to at least explore.

So with that said, hit some balls with your cue angled so the tip is BELOW center and use your hand/wrist/fingers to make the top edge of your cue go up (using your shooting hand/fingers) to produce topspin on the cue ball.

Think in terms of putting topspin on a basketball by hitting up on it BELOW it's center. You wouldn't hit the basketball HIGH on the ball to produce maximum topspin you would "brush up on the ball", LOW to HIGH.


Please don't take this literally, I'm just trying to give you a visual analogy to help "get the idea" of using the top of the tip to generate topspin (high english). If that doesn't make sense I'll try in another way later tonight, for now I have to go play a game myself.

*



Hi CJ-

I'm struggling a bit with this 'next level' "pinning" concept.

I understand the examples of rubbing, brushing the basketball or tennis ball with an upward contact motion of hand or racquet to create the overspin.(reminds me of the upward glancing blow to the back of head motion:wink

How are you getting that action on the cb at contact?

A pure pendulum stroke seems to create a downward path at contact with cb.

Dropping the elbow seems to help negate that trajectory, and provide a more even level path through the cueball at contact.

So-is this upward tip motion created by lowering the back hand just before contact, to cause the tip to come up, engage the 'top half' of the tip, and create a mini-upward tip flip while still moving the tip and shaft forward?

(bridge being the fulcrum of this shaft orientation teeter-totter)

Can you tell that I'm confused, and trying to visualize how to acheive this upward ball brushing motion?

thanks for any comment

take care

 

[JohnnyP]

CJ:

I think Kiamco illustrates the stroke you are describing here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkCG3q2PDa4&t=19m25s

It's follow, without lowering the butt or raising the tip. He slightly stuns the cue ball to get around the nine.

When he lines up it looks like he is cutting the ball too much, but I stopped the tape at 19:33 and you can see he pulled the cue towards his body during the stroke. At first I thought he was lining up to apply left spin with squirt compensation, but the cue ball has no left spin when it comes off the bottom rail. Might even have a touch of inside.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Feeling the connection between your hand and the tip will certainly take practice

CJ:

I think Kiamco illustrates the stroke you are describing here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkCG3q2PDa4&t=19m25s

It's follow, without lowering the butt or raising the tip. He slightly stuns the cue ball to get around the nine.

When he lines up it looks like he is cutting the ball too much, but I stopped the tape at 19:33 and you can see he pulled the cue towards his body during the stroke. At first I thought he was lining up to apply left spin with squirt compensation, but the cue ball has no left spin when it comes off the bottom rail. Might even have a touch of inside.

Yes, if you notice he's using the "Touch of Inside" on every shot in this run out. You can tell because there's no spin when it's coming off the object ball. This is a very simple, predictable way of playing.

When you think of "Pinning" the cue ball, it may help to think of hitting a very specific spot just inside of center (low, medium or high). This technique will only make sense if you play for a few hours focusing on hitting the cue ball with the top portion of the tip.

It's not essential that this makes sense right away, and there's nothing wrong with putting it on the shelf and letting it process in your mind. Incorporating some of these advanced techniques take time, so be patient with yourself.

Feeling the connection between your hand and the tip will certainly take practice, and that's how you develop the Pro's Touch. Watch this Kiamco video and try to see what he's doing, now that you know what to look for it should become apparent.

 

[West Point 1987]

CJ:

I think Kiamco illustrates the stroke you are describing here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkCG3q2PDa4&t=19m25s

It's follow, without lowering the butt or raising the tip. He slightly stuns the cue ball to get around the nine.

When he lines up it looks like he is cutting the ball too much, but I stopped the tape at 19:33 and you can see he pulled the cue towards his body during the stroke. At first I thought he was lining up to apply left spin with squirt compensation, but the cue ball has no left spin when it comes off the bottom rail. Might even have a touch of inside.

Yes, he is using the touch of inside here...throughout. The other tell is that he's drilling some of these shots, and the cue ball just sort of creeps slowly into perfect position. Everything rolls into place using natural angle, no need to spin it around.

 

[CJ Wiley]

this particular technique is strickly pro level.

I thought the "Left" side* was the literal side?:wink:

One thing that I've been trying to explain and it's very challenging "you must form a relationship between your hand and your tip". The "hammer drill" is something that I've used with success to teach how the hand/wrist/fingers move the cue and deliver "energy" to the tip.

This is a force that transfers through the tip into the cue ball. So the wrist/hand/fingers effect the tip whether you're aware of it or not. I recommend being aware of it and seeking to strengthen the relationship and direct effect that your hand has on the tip THROUGH the pool cue.

I know this is a round about way to answer your question, and I think you can understand it's easy for me to show and difficult for me to explain. Connecting your hand and tip is ESSENTIAL to at least explore.

So with that said, hit some balls with your cue angled so the tip is BELOW center and use your hand/wrist/fingers to make the top edge of your cue go up (using your shooting hand/fingers) to produce topspin on the cue ball.

Think in terms of putting topspin on a basketball by hitting up on it BELOW it's center. You wouldn't hit the basketball HIGH on the ball to produce maximum topspin you would "brush up on the ball", LOW to HIGH.


Please don't take this literally, I'm just trying to give you a visual analogy to help "get the idea" of using the top of the tip to generate topspin (high english). If that doesn't make sense I'll try in another way later tonight, for now I have to go play a game myself.

*



Hi CJ-

I'm struggling a bit with this 'next level' "pinning" concept.

I understand the examples of rubbing, brushing the basketball or tennis ball with an upward contact motion of hand or racquet to create the overspin.(reminds me of the upward glancing blow to the back of head motion:wink

How are you getting that action on the cb at contact?

A pure pendulum stroke seems to create a downward path at contact with cb.

Dropping the elbow seems to help negate that trajectory, and provide a more even level path through the cueball at contact.

So-is this upward tip motion created by lowering the back hand just before contact, to cause the tip to come up, engage the 'top half' of the tip, and create a mini-upward tip flip while still moving the tip and shaft forward?

(bridge being the fulcrum of this shaft orientation teeter-totter)

Can you tell that I'm confused, and trying to visualize how to acheive this upward ball brushing motion?

thanks for any comment

take care

This is very tricky to explain and I want you to get it, but please understand players feel this in unique and different ways. I know that sounds like a "cop out", but this particular technique is strickly pro level.

Try to practice aiming at the bottom of the cue ball and following (applying follow english or topspin) a straight in shot a couple of feet. You'll have to hit the shot firmly and FORCE it to go forward by coming up on the ball with the top of your tip.

You will have to use your hand to accelerate enough to do as I"m saying. Again, the "Pinning" technique I only discussed with top notch road players, so I don't want to dwell on it.

If you get it you will see how accurate it makes your stroke and you start "Pinning" shots. I wish I could do a live seminar on this subject with everyone interested because I know if you see me do it you will become clear.

Watch Efren, Bustemante or Kiamco in the post above and watch how he comes up on the cue ball to follow the ball.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Your shotmaking and position play will raise several levels within weeks

Yes, he is using the touch of inside here...throughout. The other tell is that he's drilling some of these shots, and the cue ball just sort of creeps slowly into perfect position. Everything rolls into place using natural angle, no need to spin it around.

That's perfectly stated. Once you know what to look for it's obvious isn't it?

I'm really happy to share this because it will change how you look at the pros playing and your own Game as well. Some of the things that didn't make sense before will now become clear. CHECK THIS MATCH OUT AND HOW THEY CUE THE BALL

Once you form the relationship between what you're hand is doing relative to your tip you will find the real "Touch" that all the pros enjoy. Your shotmaking and position play will raise several levels within weeks (with just a few hours a week of concentrated practice).

Remember what they say "practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect". 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[SUPERSTAR]

WOW!
You gave up pinning to the public?!?!

Nothing is sacred anymore.

That's ok.
Most don't have the stroke to execute it anyway.

 

[Taco]

I took a lesson from a Filipino pro recently. He set up a shot where I had to go three rails around the world and get back to a ball frozen on the other end rail. I shot it with follow - around 1 o'clock. I actually got shape but he lowered my tip to around 4:00. He said "A pro would shoot that shot like this." I had trouble doing it, but I have trouble doing whatever pros do, being a mere mortal. They shoot differently than we do. But I appreciate CJ trying to articulate a concept that's really hard to articulate. The top of the tip thing gives it focus. So thanks for sharing, CJ.

 

[lfigueroa]

This is not what I'm talking about. Just elevate your cue slightly and put the tip below center and you will see the top part of it is contacting the cue ball (the "top of the tip" is from the center of the TIP to the TOP of the TIP). Now you have to strike that part of the cue ball with the tip coming up slightly to impart the "topspin" or what's commonly called "high english".

When you use the top part of the tip it's like hitting it with a "Pin". We, road players called this "Pinning the Balls" and it gets incredible results on the cue ball with apparent ease. This is advanced, yet simple to use and benefitial right away to focus on using a particular part of the tip to hit the cue ball with. {FOCUS on Specifics and you'll become more accurate}

Practice this when you get time: Hit the Cue Ball slightly BELOW center and make the tip come UP on the center to apply "high english". This isn't something I can explain perfectly in writing, like most systems and techniques you MUST experience this ON THE TABLE.

You will generate a lot of topspin on the cueball without going above center. I know it's not the "conventional" method, and as I've said before "playing at the top level requires unconventional experimenting," and "thinking outside the box". I beleve this is true with most sports,games and even business practices. imho

The technique actually works, it's something I picked up awhile ago. For many shots you can get forward roll hitting slightly below center.

I don't have a fancy name or dubious explanation for it, for me it's simply a matter of any immediate slide or backwards roll of the CB quickly wearing off because of either the very slight below center hit or distance it travels and the CB quickly achieving natural roll.

Are there advantages? Yes -- for me, because of the near center ball hit on the CB it is more natural to aim and shoot shots because you're shooting center ball to center ball vs top of the ball (CB) to center of the ball (OB).

Back on RSB we frequently talked about getting the CB rolling immediately upon contact with the cue tip. I believe Ron Shepard had a name for it, which I can't recall at the moment and that there is a specific point on the CB that is best for that to happen. Using a striped OB as a CB I believe it is the top of the stripe. So many of us adopted that as our method for applying follow to the ball.

However, over the years one of the things I've been blessed with is the opportunity to play a good number of pro players at tournaments. And, I always try and pay close attention to their technique, mechanically and on the table, to take something away I can use in my own game, figuring I'm never going to get the opportunity to play them again. From Efren, to Buddy, to Busty, to Darren, and most recently Kiamco (had him 2-1 in a 1pocket race to three and let him go, dammit). And I have often observed the below center hit to achieve forward roll technique.

I believe it can be a valuable tool and certainly, if the elite players are using it, it can't hurt to incorporate it into your game. It's not as hard as it sounds -- you just have to calibrate the hit and speed properly.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Neil]

The technique actually works, it's something I picked up awhile ago. For many shots you can get forward roll hitting slightly below center.

I don't have a fancy name or dubious explanation for it, for me it's simply a matter of any immediate slide or backwards roll of the CB quickly wearing off because of either the very slight below center hit or distance it travels and the CB quickly achieving natural roll.

Are there advantages? Yes -- for me, because of the near center ball hit on the CB it is more natural to aim and shoot shots because you're shooting center ball to center ball vs top of the ball (CB) to center of the ball (OB).

Back on RSB we frequently talked about getting the CB rolling immediately upon contact with the cue tip. I believe Ron Shepard had a name for it, which I can't recall at the moment and that there is a specific point on the CB that is best for that to happen. Using a striped OB as a CB I believe it is the top of the stripe. So many of us adopted that as our method for applying follow to the ball.

However, over the years one of the things I've been blessed with is the opportunity to play a good number of pro players at tournaments. And, I always try and pay close attention to their technique, mechanically and on the table, to take something away I can use in my own game, figuring I'm never going to get the opportunity to play them again. From Efren, to Buddy, to Busty, to Darren, and most recently Kiamco (had him 2-1 in a 1pocket race to three and let him go, dammit). And I have often observed the below center hit to achieve forward roll technique.

I believe it can be a valuable tool and certainly, if the elite players are using it, it can't hurt to incorporate it into your game. It's not as hard as it sounds -- you just have to calibrate the hit and speed properly.

Lou Figueroa

It's called a stun follow shot, and it has been described on here many times in the past. It's nothing new. All you have to do is know how to stop the cue ball at any distance or speed, and then make a slight adjustment so the cb stops sliding a little before contact with the ob. In the teaching circles, it's a rather basic shot and concept.

 

[lfigueroa]

It's called a stun follow shot, and it has been described on here many times in the past. It's nothing new. All you have to do is know how to stop the cue ball at any distance or speed, and then make a slight adjustment so the cb stops sliding a little before contact with the ob. In the teaching circles, it's a rather basic shot and concept.

No, I'm not talking about a stun-follow. I know that shot and use it all the time, especially playing 1pocket. This is a true follow shot.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Mikjary]

Let's be careful, here. We're talking about the tip grabbing and swiping the cue ball. We all know the world is flat and this isn't reality.

Best,
Mike

 

[Neil]

No, I'm not talking about a stun-follow. I know that shot and use it all the time, especially playing 1pocket. This is a true follow shot.

Lou Figueroa

It's the exact same concept Lou. You just have the sliding stop sooner so the natural roll of the cb from the friction of the cloth picks up sooner. There's no big mystery here. The science that CJ wants to scoff at explains it very well. It explains why it happens, and how to duplicate it. All this raising the tip to spin the cb stuff is nothing more than someone that really doesn't understand just what he is doing trying to explain what he is doing.

CJ is doing nothing more than taking simple concepts and adding a bunch of mumbo jumbo to it to try and explain what he doesn't understand. That's the difference between top players and actual instructors. Top players can do, but can't explain because they don't understand the concepts they want to scoff at. Instructors can do also, but not as consistently because they don't spend all their time on the table.

 

[Mikjary]

It's the exact same concept Lou. You just have the sliding stop sooner so the natural roll of the cb from the friction of the cloth picks up sooner. There's no big mystery here. The science that CJ wants to scoff at explains it very well. It explains why it happens, and how to duplicate it. All this raising the tip to spin the cb stuff is nothing more than someone that really doesn't understand just what he is doing trying to explain what he is doing.

CJ is doing nothing more than taking simple concepts and adding a bunch of mumbo jumbo to it to try and explain what he doesn't understand. That's the difference between top players and actual instructors. Top players can do, but can't explain because they don't understand the concepts they want to scoff at. Instructors can do also, but not as consistently because they don't spend all their time on the table.

No, no, and NO, Neil. Lou's right.

Best,
Mike