WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

SUPERSTAR said:
For instance.
Dr. Dave has a spectacular image of the draw shot at various distances.
This really basically covers everything about the draw shot. So does his link to physics based advice.

But at the same time, i am compelled to point out something that a pool player might know, that doesn't seem to be explained in this image or in the link.

i.e., manipulation of the friction that works to slow down the ball and reduces spin over distance, by CHEATING.

How does one cheat for instance?

Example.
2 power draw shots identical starting points, identical distance to the object ball, identical impact speed on the cueball.
1st one is done with the person's best draw stroke.
2nd one is done with a semi jacked up draw stroke.

Which one draws the ball better?

Answer, the jacked up one.
Why you ask? Because when you strike the cueball at a semi jacked up position, you are causing it to jump, and therefore, for it's slightly airborne journey, it's bypassing that whole friction thing, and retaining MORE draw on the cueball as a result, so that when it impacts the object ball, it SNAPS back.
As a matter of fact, you can hit the slightly jacked up shot, SLOWER then the regular power draw stroke, and get more draw sometimes, because you are cheating friction. (BLASPHEMY!!!!!:eek:)

I'm positive that there could also be some application for shooting shots with an upwards follow stroke as well that might cause the cueball to leave the surface temporarily and cause some goofy effects. Who knows.

But the point is, how i just explained it will suffice.
I don't think any scientific explanation can explain it any better then i just did.
And plenty of pool players know what i just said, works.
Yet it isn't really covered in the scientific explanation for a power draw.
It's not in Dr. Dave's link at all. (and that does not mean that Dr Dave gives bad info)

But it just goes to show you, that despite the various legitimate scientific explanations for pool phenomena, sometimes, people miss something that is so obvious.
And sometimes, layman's terms aren't good at explaining a situation where one is "cheating" and skirting the physics rules, and i think this is where some of these threads really go haywire.

Cause it's easy to see what one is doing on the table when it's demonstrated.
It's a lot harder to see what someone is doing, when they are limited to a scientific explanations on paper or in forums, that assume that people aren't manipulating factors that they haven't accounted for.
Click to expand...

Not to "pop your bubble", but that was a scientific explanation you just gave. It's not "cheating" physics, it is physics. Also, Dr. Dave and others have talked about that very thing many times on here. I would be very surprised if it is not in his literature on his site.
 
SUPERSTAR said:
...
I'm positive that there could also be some application for shooting shots with an upwards follow stroke as well that might cause the cueball to leave the surface temporarily and cause some goofy effects. Who knows.

But the point is, how i just explained it will suffice.
I don't think any scientific explanation can explain it any better then i just did.
...
Click to expand...
Actually, the utility of the flatish jump shot for draw has been discussed on the internet by the physics weenies for a couple of decades. I'm sure Dr. Dave has a discussion of it somewhere. A lot depends on whether the cue ball has landed between launch and object ball contact.

Shooting upward on the cue ball has also been studied and discussed. I think Robert Byrne discusses it in his "Advanced Technique" book or maybe his later collection of articles. The amazing thing about shooting up on the cue ball is that you can get the cue ball to masse to the left with right english!
 
nobcitypool said:
On the other hand, the laws of Physics are the laws of Physics. You, me or CJ can "feel" what we wish but just because we feel it doesn't mean it is true if it defies those laws. CJ, the top 10 pool players ever to live and whomever could all say they've created a technique that that eliminates gravity. Even though that's impossible, they "feel" it and see some type of results that may even lead one to believe it is possible.

Facts are facts and are indisputable. This is true in science, court of law or logical arguments. CJ attempts to use tons of anecdotal evidence to support his statements and the fact that he is an all time great professional leads many people to believe him.
Click to expand...

Well said, nobcity. This is where folks reading these posts need to be careful. I've known many pros and some have preached some pretty far off beliefs about the game, even though it defies known facts. Unfortunately, facts can be subborn things.

I still enjoy reading CJ's posts and hope he tolerates us for a long time to come. At the same time, I don't mind if he gets called out on concepts that are off-base, as long as personal attacks get left out. We're all here to find higher truth, ya know.

The game is the teacher (from what I understand).
 
SUPERSTAR said:
2 power draw shots identical starting points, identical distance to the object ball, identical impact speed on the cueball.
1st one is done with the person's best draw stroke.
2nd one is done with a semi jacked up draw stroke.

Which one draws the ball better?

Answer, the jacked up one.
Click to expand...
That's not true, unless the jacked-up stroke is hitting with more tip offset (from center ball) and/or with more speed. The explanation (backed up by both physics and actual play) can be found in this article:
Check it out.

Now, cue elevation does allow the CB to draw back at a sharper angle (AKA "quick draw"), and with less OB motion, and that is useful for certain types of shots (e.g., the ones shown in the article). For more info, see:

SUPERSTAR said:
Why you ask? Because when you strike the cueball at a semi jacked up position, you are causing it to jump, and therefore, for it's slightly airborne journey, it's bypassing that whole friction thing, and retaining MORE draw on the cueball as a result, so that when it impacts the object ball, it SNAPS back.
Click to expand...
It is true that the CB loses less (almost no) spin while it is airborne. However, the CB loses a greater amount of spin when it is driven down into the table with the cue elevation. The physics doesn't lie ... nor can it be "cheated." Now, some people might be using more tip offset and/or speed with the jacked-up stroke (maybe even without knowing it). That would certainly result in more draw action.

Now, sometimes you are forced to elevate due to closeness to a cushion, or to cue over a ball, or to avoid a double hit, but that's another story.

Regards,
Dave
 
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TheThaiger said:
And my head finally explodes...
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I've never done it, but by hiting up on the ball, it must turn or flip over in the air & come down spinning left. Similar to a right handed 'hooking' bowling ball. The hand comes up on the outer right side of the ball but the ball spins to the left.
 
"It's easy to make this game complicated, and difficult to make this game easy"

madmiller said:
I am a new guy that started playing pool only a couple of years ago. I don't understand a lot of technical "pool" stuff that is being discussed here, but everything that I tried from whatever CJ Wiley offered to try, worked for me and worked great.
Yesterday after reading how to hit the ball with the top of the cue, I went to a pool room and tried it(combined with his foot placement, touch of inside and hammer wrist action)
I haven't missed a ball and ran a rack like it was nothing. Then I started practicing my favorite practice shot - long straight in stop shot where the ob is in the middle of the table and the cb is right in the middle of the corner pocket, just far enough from falling in. I couldn't believe myself. Normally I make 4-5, then miss, then do another 6. 7. sometimes 2-3, then miss again.
Yesterday I made 87 in a row without missing, until I had to leave. And I knew that if I stayed that number would be way passed 100- that's how confident I was.
So, obviously, the stuff that CJ is talking about works!!!
I tried different approaches that I learned from the books, videos on that long stop shot before and in last two years my best run of that shot was no more than 10 in a row. Whatever I learned from CJ's posts boosted my shotmaking way up!!!
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Glad to hear about your progress!!! Making the complex techniques simple, for all to understand isn't easy. One of these days if we're in the same neighborhood I"ll demonstrate ALL my techniques and "fine tune" your learning curve.

We've (other road players and I) taken intermediate players and in a few weeks got them to the point of winning local tournaments. It's more because of the ability to create "bridges" between what the currently know and understand to what they need to know and understand to improve their Game. "It's easy to make this game complicated, and difficult to make this game easy".

What seems to be more important than the techniques is the order that players need to understand each one. I think the main difference between teaching, and being able to demonstrate is one of the key factors.

Maybe someone that questions my techniques are effective would like to have a public, contest on streaming "world wide" video. (BIG TRUCK?) They can show and demonstrate their "scientific, conventional methods" and I'll demonstrate the ones I've been describing here, on the AZBILLIARDS Forum.

We can all see who's just talk and who can "walk the walk"?
 
ENGLISH! said:
I've never done it, but by hiting up on the ball, it must turn or flip over in the air & come down spinning left. ... .
Click to expand...
No, it does not. If you hit up on the cue ball with right side spin the cue ball will curve to the left and then when it hits the rail the cue ball will go to the right as usual. The easiest way to do this is to put the cue ball up on the end cushion on a piece of chalk.

For our friends in England who have net pockets available, you can do the same thing with a ball on the brink of a corner pocket -- shoot up from under the table and use side. I think this is a legal shot as long as the cue ball does not pass over an object ball (at snooker).
 
CJ Wiley said:
Maybe someone that questions my techniques are effective would like to have a public, contest on streaming "world wide" video. (BIG TRUCK?) They can show and demonstrate their "scientific, conventional methods" and I'll demonstrate the ones I've been describing here, on the AZBILLIARDS Forum.

We can all see who's just talk and who can "walk the walk"?
Click to expand...


lol. Over the years here *numerous folks* have barked like this. But everyone (with few exceptions) have figured out it wouldn't mean diddly-do-da.

Can *you* figure out why?

The Forum is The Teacher

Lou Figueroa
 
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Bob Jewett said:
No, it does not. If you hit up on the cue ball with right side spin the cue ball will curve to the left and then when it hits the rail the cue ball will go to the right as usual. The easiest way to do this is to put the cue ball up on the end cushion on a piece of chalk.

For our friends in England who have net pockets available, you can do the same thing with a ball on the brink of a corner pocket -- shoot up from under the table and use side. I think this is a legal shot as long as the cue ball does not pass over an object ball (at snooker).
Click to expand...

Sorry,

Don't 'see' it unless you're talking about curving to the left in the air a bit.

I guess this is one of those unexplainable CJ like techniques that one just has to try on the table.

I don't understand putting right side spin to make the ball curve left unless it is in the air.
 
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A heckler is a person who harasses and tries to disconcert others with questions, etc

SUPERSTAR said:
For instance.
Dr. Dave has a spectacular image of the draw shot at various distances.
This really basically covers everything about the draw shot. So does his link to physics based advice.

But at the same time, i am compelled to point out something that a pool player might know, that doesn't seem to be explained in this image or in the link.

i.e., manipulation of the friction that works to slow down the ball and reduces spin over distance, by CHEATING.

How does one cheat for instance?

Example.
2 power draw shots identical starting points, identical distance to the object ball, identical impact speed on the cueball.
1st one is done with the person's best draw stroke.
2nd one is done with a semi jacked up draw stroke.

Which one draws the ball better?

Answer, the jacked up one.
Why you ask? Because when you strike the cueball at a semi jacked up position, you are causing it to jump, and therefore, for it's slightly airborne journey, it's bypassing that whole friction thing, and retaining MORE draw on the cueball as a result, so that when it impacts the object ball, it SNAPS back.
As a matter of fact, you can hit the slightly jacked up shot, SLOWER then the regular power draw stroke, and get more draw sometimes, because you are cheating friction. (BLASPHEMY!!!!!:eek:)

I'm positive that there could also be some application for shooting shots with an upwards follow stroke as well that might cause the cueball to leave the surface temporarily and cause some goofy effects. Who knows.

But the point is, how i just explained it will suffice.
I don't think any scientific explanation can explain it any better then i just did.
And plenty of pool players know what i just said, works.
Yet it isn't really covered in the scientific explanation for a power draw.
It's not in Dr. Dave's link at all. (and that does not mean that Dr Dave gives bad info)

But it just goes to show you, that despite the various legitimate scientific explanations for pool phenomena, sometimes, people miss something that is so obvious.
And sometimes, layman's terms aren't good at explaining a situation where one is "cheating" and skirting the physics rules, and i think this is where some of these threads really go haywire.

Cause it's easy to see what one is doing on the table when it's demonstrated.
It's a lot harder to see what someone is doing, when they are limited to a scientific explanations on paper or in forums, that assume that people aren't manipulating factors that they haven't accounted for.
Click to expand...



This is SO TRUE, and so Useful to understand!!! When you start talking physics and geometry on the pool table you are just doing it to DESCRIBE what's going on with the moving parts ie: The Cue, The Cue Ball, The Object Balls, The Cloth and humidity may even play a factor.

Can you imagine the three hecklers* on here out watching Jack Nichlaus hitting golf balls ewwwing and ahhhhing over the way the golf ball curves and why it sometimes goes left before it comes back to the right. How he's hitting down to make the ball go up.....the club goes through the ball right to make it ultimately curve to the left....on and on and on and on. :eek:
book3.jpg



NO, I can't imagine that because golfers are interested in learning to "master the swing", not learn what scientific factors make the golf ball curve right, left, up, down or knuckleball)

They can clearly see the outcomes of their swings (by what the golf ball does) like pool players can clearly see the outcome of their shots (by what the pool balls do).

The "Thing" is the "Swing" is what Hank Haney used to tell me and he's right. Learning how to play The Game better and decribing the effects in scientific "mumbo jumbo" (squirt,swerve,veer,hot mustard,deflect,sugar spin) is barely even related. As someone pointed out earlier, I would like to see the ones who talk about these point actually demonstrate them on video.:groucho:

*
A heckler is a person who harasses and tries to disconcert others with questions, challenges, or gibes.[1] Hecklers are often known to shout disparaging comments at a performance or event, or to interrupt set-piece speeches, with the intent of disturbing performers or participants.
 
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CJ Wiley said:
*
A heckler is a person who harasses and tries to disconcert others with questions, challenges, or gibes.[1] Hecklers are often known to shout disparaging comments at a performance or event, or to interrupt set-piece speeches, with the intent of disturbing performers or participants.
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CJ,

Would that be similiar to 'Sharking'?

Best Regards,
 
He knows nothing original, how can he for God's sake, he's a professional player

SUPERSTAR said:
WOW!
You gave up pinning to the public?!?!

Nothing is sacred anymore. :)

That's ok.
Most don't have the stroke to execute it anyway.:eek:
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It's so entertaining to let the "others" in on what would normally be a private, road player disussion. The "Pinning technique" has been kept secret from the beginning of this "pool age". What will be the result of revealing this "nugget".

Will they say:

1) It's nonsense, just another way of CJ trying to manipulate poor, defenseless pool players.

2) It doesn't work unless he can describe it in "scientific terms" that we can understand and document.

3) We knew it all along, all CJ is doing is describing things we've been saying all along in fancy "pro mumbo jumbo terms". He knows nothing original, how can he for God's sake, he's a professional player. We all know they can only do it, but can't describe "it". We, on the other hand can describe things in a multitude of terms. "can we do it?" well......."how dare you question us, how dare you challenge us to play pool on a real table". :poke: "Virtual Pool is our best game."


 
Hang in there CJ, you are doing fine.

I am so confused and bedazzled by the "expert" inputs on here that I don't think I've learned a thing though. :grin: One of my high school science teachers back years ago told me that he could beat me playing pool just using his knowledge of physics and geometry. I told him to bring all his money, his car title, and the deed to his home. He TALKED a good game.

I'm an old dog that learned to play the old fashioned way (Missouri way).
 
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