Actually my body is fixed snooker style, my shaft touches and rubs against center of my chin, my butt side touches chess so that variable out of the picture of which made me concentrate on other issues. I did find the loose grip and loose wrist that you mention very helpful, working on it still.
WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?
- Thread starter CJ Wiley
- Start date
Actually my body is fixed snooker style, my shaft touches and rubs against center of my chin, my butt side touches chess so that variable out of the picture of which made me concentrate on other issues. I did find the loose grip and loose wrist that you mention very helpful, working on it still.
The good "instructors" generally teach you good form and stroke, technical stuff. However the top players can show the next level stuff. Bobby Leggs showed me many things that I believe the top instructors would never teach. I think CJ has touched on things here not in the everyday "instructors" manual.LOL, yes, I can. And have done so many times on here. Unlike you, you can't seem to properly describe any of them. Half of what you think you are doing, you aren't even doing, and some of your explanations defy physics. You say you want video, there are videos out there from the top instructors, maybe you should watch a few of them. Or, you could just watch Jewett, or Stan Shuffet, or Landon Shuffett. You can't go making statements like you did trying to sound superior when the info you ask for is already out there and you just dont know it.
I've seen a number of top players (guys that can run ten racks in 9 ball, 200 in 14.1) try and teach others. It was an absolute disaster. Does that equate to "they have nothing to offer" like some of you are trying to imply that I am saying? No. Of course they can have something to offer. Especially if the student doesn't know much to start with. That is a far cry from actually teaching someone though.
I have watched a new student go to a very advanced player (200+ ball runner in his day, made a living playing pool) for lessons. This poor guy went several times a week for several months. The way he stroked, you would think he had never seen anyone play before. Guy didn't have a clue. You know what the lessons consisted of? Set up a shot and shoot it over until you make it. That's it! Several months later, the guy still couldn't make 2 balls in a row.
The same "instructor", I had to teach how to draw. He felt at his age, he couldn't draw a ball anymore. He didn't even know why or how a ball draws! He only knew that the cb should be hit low. In five minutes, I had him able to draw again. He thought he was hitting low, he wasn't, and didn't even know it.
I'm a firm believer in that if you don't know how or why things work the way they do, you aren't qualified to teach. You might be able to give some valid pointers, but that isn't "teaching", that's giving pointers. If you don't know how things work, you can't possibly be able to see what someone else's problem actually is, and then be able to correct it. While at times it may seem mystical, what happens on a pool table follows certain laws. There's nothing mystical about it. If you do "A", you get "A's" results. You get those results every single time.
Also, CJ, for some reason, just plain ignorance about it I guess, you seem want to constantly knock using the pendulum stroke. If you really think top players don't use it, then either you have no clue what it is, or you have no clue what others actually do. If you want to see a great example of it in action, go look at some of Judd Trumps videos. Then tell me it has no merit.
I think he's touched on some things not in this universe. For example, increasing the pocket's margin of error by aiming differently - that's a physical impossibility.
And he tries (more or less subtly) to discredit his critics - but at least he doesn't rant and rave about it like some would.
pj
chgo
"We only recognize what we're familiar with."
It's like describing any journey. You can only describe the places you've been and the path you've taken to get there. "We only recognize what we're familiar with."
There's some "places" and "paths" that I've described that many haven't seen or can't relate to. The ones that can also contact me to talk about the specifics and I've met some VERY knowledgeable players on azbilliards.
If you want to talk to me without the "distactions" on here you can Private Message me at my Face Book CJ Wiley Athlete's Page.
My stength is not working with beginners, but with more intermediate and advanced players. If you're still focusing on what your arm is doing rather than what your cue is doing you probably want to go to Max Eberle and get some insight. My new web site is up and we are adding to it daily at www.cjwiley.com or www.cjwileybilliards.com.
It's like describing any journey. You can only describe the places you've been and the path you've taken to get there. "We only recognize what we're familiar with."
There's some "places" and "paths" that I've described that many haven't seen or can't relate to. The ones that can also contact me to talk about the specifics and I've met some VERY knowledgeable players on azbilliards.
If you want to talk to me without the "distactions" on here you can Private Message me at my Face Book CJ Wiley Athlete's Page.
My stength is not working with beginners, but with more intermediate and advanced players. If you're still focusing on what your arm is doing rather than what your cue is doing you probably want to go to Max Eberle and get some insight. My new web site is up and we are adding to it daily at www.cjwiley.com or www.cjwileybilliards.com.
Quincy Ill. when I was only 15 and 16 years old at a bar called "THE PLACE"
Mark and I go WAY back and I've always liked Mark a lot. He's always been a "class act" and has also been around the "old school" players that I have back in the 80s and 90s. I used to play him in tournaments in Quincy Ill. when I was only 15 and 16 years old at a bar called "THE PLACE" with Bobby, TW, Fergy, Tom, Scott Kitto, etc. Those were fun days and I learned a lot hanging around that group. Jeff Carter was also around quite a bit back then.
Mark and I go WAY back and I've always liked Mark a lot. He's always been a "class act" and has also been around the "old school" players that I have back in the 80s and 90s. I used to play him in tournaments in Quincy Ill. when I was only 15 and 16 years old at a bar called "THE PLACE" with Bobby, TW, Fergy, Tom, Scott Kitto, etc. Those were fun days and I learned a lot hanging around that group. Jeff Carter was also around quite a bit back then.
Cj wtf?!?!?
It is unreal you put this stuff on here for free!! Man...now the cat is out of the bag!!
It is unreal you put this stuff on here for free!! Man...now the cat is out of the bag!!
The biomechanics of cue sports is very poorly understood, because it has never really been studied. There have been some good studies in golf, tennis, and other sports. Most useful for this thread are probably the ones which consider the wrist-forearm-elbow combination acting as a "double pendulum."
This is what one study found to be true in tennis:
Link: http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/doublependulum.php
The article also talks about accuracy/control.
This is what one study found to be true in tennis:
Link: http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/doublependulum.php
The article also talks about accuracy/control.
that lesson Omaha JOhn Shuput taught me in the little bar in South Carolina
Don't worry, those that aren't met to have this knowledge will not be able to see it. Just like learning anything in life, we're only able to "Real Eyes" when we're ready.
I remember when I was 19, "Omaha John" and I were touring around the Carolinas and ended up in a small bar in South Carolina. The owner of the bar was a BIG gambler and would take the 5 and the break from anyone playing on the bar table with the Big Cue Ball.
I had been going through a time when I was "breaking even" with everyone. Usually I would get ahead, then start "letting up," they would come back, "get even" and quit. This was getting annoying and I was beginning to question if I had any "heart," or not.
This was a big thing in the gambling days, if you have the heart to close someone out. To put them away. And it was happening again, I had got up over 2k for $200. a game and now we raised it to $300. a game and the guy beat me 7 IN A ROW and we were just $100. winner.
Omaha John came up to me and said "if you're ever going to be a "road player" you better do it now. I'm not out here "for my health," I have a wife and kid at home and I have to win, breaking even is for "suckers!"
I knew he was serious, so I stopped playing and went to the bathroom. I knew it was "now or never," and I looked in the mirror. Straight into my own eyes and ask "do you really want to be a pool player, do you really have what it takes?" I hesitated slightly, waiting for the answer to come. Not the answer "I wanted to hear," I HAD to know the truth....I needed to know and my life would change from that moment.
I finally knew in my "heart of hearts" that I was ready. Ready to not be a sucker and be "stuck" at my current level, struggling to break even and making up excuses. I was ready to become a winner and break out of that "victim level" and do whatever it takes to learn the Truth about pool and what it takes to be the best. I made that decision right then because I had to. And it's a decison that continues because life's much more about the "journey," than the "destination." Life is the best teacher.
Often times we are held back because we don't have to win, we don't have to get better. I didn't have the luxery that day and I thank Omaha John for putting me in a situation where I had to be honest with myself. No one else matters when you're trying to get to the "next level,"{in life} it's all about ourselves.... it's about looking ourselves in the mirror.
I went back out there and was like an entirely different person. John had been telling me to stop spinning my ball and playing low percentage shots....so I did. Others had made comments about my game that I had ignored because of my ego, so I incorporated those suggestions too.
From that point I beat the guy out of over 8K and he looked like he had been run over by a truck. I didn't care what it took I shot the right shot, in the right way and forgot forever my childish reasons for not playing the Game correctly. To be a Champion at anything we all must keep doing "the next right thing," to get results, not just do "what feels comfortable."
The main thing was I had BROKEN the chains of mediocrity and become a player. From that moment on I had a "6th Sense" about pool and knew what I HAD to practice to improve and what I needed to ignore.
I believe we all have this ability inside us, however, we can't channel it while trying to "make excuses," of why we "can't get better," it's about the decision to either commit to improving OR take a few days off and quitting entirely.
[/B]
No matter what business I'm in or what game I'm playing I'll always remember that lesson Omaha JOhn Shuput taught me in the little bar in South Carolina...that gave me "eyes" that could look myself in that mirror and "do the right thing." 'The Game is the Teacher'
Don't worry, those that aren't met to have this knowledge will not be able to see it. Just like learning anything in life, we're only able to "Real Eyes" when we're ready.
I remember when I was 19, "Omaha John" and I were touring around the Carolinas and ended up in a small bar in South Carolina. The owner of the bar was a BIG gambler and would take the 5 and the break from anyone playing on the bar table with the Big Cue Ball.
I had been going through a time when I was "breaking even" with everyone. Usually I would get ahead, then start "letting up," they would come back, "get even" and quit. This was getting annoying and I was beginning to question if I had any "heart," or not.
This was a big thing in the gambling days, if you have the heart to close someone out. To put them away. And it was happening again, I had got up over 2k for $200. a game and now we raised it to $300. a game and the guy beat me 7 IN A ROW and we were just $100. winner.
Omaha John came up to me and said "if you're ever going to be a "road player" you better do it now. I'm not out here "for my health," I have a wife and kid at home and I have to win, breaking even is for "suckers!"
I knew he was serious, so I stopped playing and went to the bathroom. I knew it was "now or never," and I looked in the mirror. Straight into my own eyes and ask "do you really want to be a pool player, do you really have what it takes?" I hesitated slightly, waiting for the answer to come. Not the answer "I wanted to hear," I HAD to know the truth....I needed to know and my life would change from that moment.
I finally knew in my "heart of hearts" that I was ready. Ready to not be a sucker and be "stuck" at my current level, struggling to break even and making up excuses. I was ready to become a winner and break out of that "victim level" and do whatever it takes to learn the Truth about pool and what it takes to be the best. I made that decision right then because I had to. And it's a decison that continues because life's much more about the "journey," than the "destination." Life is the best teacher.
Often times we are held back because we don't have to win, we don't have to get better. I didn't have the luxery that day and I thank Omaha John for putting me in a situation where I had to be honest with myself. No one else matters when you're trying to get to the "next level,"{in life} it's all about ourselves.... it's about looking ourselves in the mirror.
I went back out there and was like an entirely different person. John had been telling me to stop spinning my ball and playing low percentage shots....so I did. Others had made comments about my game that I had ignored because of my ego, so I incorporated those suggestions too.
From that point I beat the guy out of over 8K and he looked like he had been run over by a truck. I didn't care what it took I shot the right shot, in the right way and forgot forever my childish reasons for not playing the Game correctly. To be a Champion at anything we all must keep doing "the next right thing," to get results, not just do "what feels comfortable."
The main thing was I had BROKEN the chains of mediocrity and become a player. From that moment on I had a "6th Sense" about pool and knew what I HAD to practice to improve and what I needed to ignore.
I believe we all have this ability inside us, however, we can't channel it while trying to "make excuses," of why we "can't get better," it's about the decision to either commit to improving OR take a few days off and quitting entirely.
[/B]
No matter what business I'm in or what game I'm playing I'll always remember that lesson Omaha JOhn Shuput taught me in the little bar in South Carolina...that gave me "eyes" that could look myself in that mirror and "do the right thing." 'The Game is the Teacher'
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Well said- (just quoting *some* words
)This is what every player has to run through somehow.
lg Ingo
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Wiley
Often times we are held back because we don't have to win, we don't have to get better. I believe we all have this ability inside us, however, we can't channel it while trying to "make excuses," of why we "can't get better,"
I will agree with statement above if the following is added, (hope CJ quote was not taken out of contents):
Provided they have the time and means to do it, such as table at home, or the luxury of spending lots of time practice at pool halls.
there is something we all want to get better at
Yes, I agree, most of us don't want to be "champion pool players," however there is something we want to improve, like networking, socializing or negotiating improved business or job situations.
I have decided to believe "winning" is a state of mind, and a win/win attitude is essential to individual growth, development and "well being" (and of course playing better pool
'The Game is the Teacher'
Yes, I agree, most of us don't want to be "champion pool players," however there is something we want to improve, like networking, socializing or negotiating improved business or job situations.
I have decided to believe "winning" is a state of mind, and a win/win attitude is essential to individual growth, development and "well being" (and of course playing better pool
'The Game is the Teacher'
measure your {body} distance each time to give yourself the same perception
I like that approach. Connecting your body to the cue is essential to creating consistent "body alignment" each time you play.
One more question: How do you measure your {body} distance each time to give yourself the same perception of the cue ball?
It may not seem vitally important, however, if you're closer on some shots the cue ball will appear larger and if you're further it will appear slightly smaller to your "mind's eye."
I like that approach. Connecting your body to the cue is essential to creating consistent "body alignment" each time you play.
One more question: How do you measure your {body} distance each time to give yourself the same perception of the cue ball?
It may not seem vitally important, however, if you're closer on some shots the cue ball will appear larger and if you're further it will appear slightly smaller to your "mind's eye."
CJ, Help!
CJ,
I put in some more time with the grip & touch of inside (not 3 hours due to competing). It is very acccurate but I am having a problem with speed for position. I'm hiiting almost everthing too hard.
I think it might be me being 'fearfull' of the CB spinning & I'm making sure that I don't let the CB spin back. I'm in the New Orleans area. If hit softly, the CB will spin off line. I'm use to that & can allow for it when using spin but trying to shoot with just 'deflection' (squirt) is difficult , for me.
I know I need to find 3 hours of time, to just use it & only it. But other than that, do you have any other suggestions or insight that might help me?
Thanks in advance & also thanks again for all of your efforts & patience here on AZB.
Best Regards,
CJ,
I put in some more time with the grip & touch of inside (not 3 hours due to competing). It is very acccurate but I am having a problem with speed for position. I'm hiiting almost everthing too hard.
I think it might be me being 'fearfull' of the CB spinning & I'm making sure that I don't let the CB spin back. I'm in the New Orleans area. If hit softly, the CB will spin off line. I'm use to that & can allow for it when using spin but trying to shoot with just 'deflection' (squirt) is difficult , for me.
I know I need to find 3 hours of time, to just use it & only it. But other than that, do you have any other suggestions or insight that might help me?
Thanks in advance & also thanks again for all of your efforts & patience here on AZB.
Best Regards,
I'd rather play more difficult patterns and be able to hit the ball with authority
It sounds like you're cueing it a little bit too far to the inside. If you have an accurate stroke it just takes a "hair" to the inside to accomplish what you need. Remember, the main thing is to MAKE SURE you hit the inside or center of the ball, but NOT the outside (unless you need to for spin off the rail to change an angle).
When someone tries to hit center they will be "off target" a percentage of the time and hit either side of center. More advanced players will always favor one side of center, sometimes just unconsciously from years of "trial and error" experience.
I like to control this factor and favor the inside of the ball, so if I'm off in one direction I hit the center, and if I'm off in the other I hit a shade more inside. The main thing is minimize spin on the cue ball so that it appears to float, not spin off the object ball.
I would say if you feel like you're hitting the ball too hard you need to experiment to find out what your most accurate speed is. There's a preferred speed (for other accomplished players) that you can see by watching Buddy, Efren, Johnny, Shane, etc. and it's basically "moderate," so that you get the maximum feel out of the cue ball, yet firm enough to "keep in stroke." I strive to hit the cue ball a consistent speed and play shape according to the speed, not the "easiest route" for position.
This may seem counter intuitive, however, I'd rather play more difficult patterns and be able to hit the ball with more authority. There's advantages to this style that you will understand once you do it for awhile. It also forces more of an aggressive game that is intimidating to play against.
I like to hear a "crisp" sound when I hit the cue ball and that transfers to the object ball, then the pocket. Sometimes we don't remember that listening to the sound the balls make hitting the pocket is one of the best ways to judge our ideal "shot speed." Experiment with these things and try "listening" for feedback from the Game. 'The Game is the Teacher'
It sounds like you're cueing it a little bit too far to the inside. If you have an accurate stroke it just takes a "hair" to the inside to accomplish what you need. Remember, the main thing is to MAKE SURE you hit the inside or center of the ball, but NOT the outside (unless you need to for spin off the rail to change an angle).
When someone tries to hit center they will be "off target" a percentage of the time and hit either side of center. More advanced players will always favor one side of center, sometimes just unconsciously from years of "trial and error" experience.
I like to control this factor and favor the inside of the ball, so if I'm off in one direction I hit the center, and if I'm off in the other I hit a shade more inside. The main thing is minimize spin on the cue ball so that it appears to float, not spin off the object ball.
I would say if you feel like you're hitting the ball too hard you need to experiment to find out what your most accurate speed is. There's a preferred speed (for other accomplished players) that you can see by watching Buddy, Efren, Johnny, Shane, etc. and it's basically "moderate," so that you get the maximum feel out of the cue ball, yet firm enough to "keep in stroke." I strive to hit the cue ball a consistent speed and play shape according to the speed, not the "easiest route" for position.
This may seem counter intuitive, however, I'd rather play more difficult patterns and be able to hit the ball with more authority. There's advantages to this style that you will understand once you do it for awhile. It also forces more of an aggressive game that is intimidating to play against.
I like to hear a "crisp" sound when I hit the cue ball and that transfers to the object ball, then the pocket. Sometimes we don't remember that listening to the sound the balls make hitting the pocket is one of the best ways to judge our ideal "shot speed." Experiment with these things and try "listening" for feedback from the Game. 'The Game is the Teacher'
CJ,
Thanks for the reply.
My stroke is fine, but I know how even a bit off from center can affect a shot. That is why I have been shooting with a chosen side in or out for so many years.
I'll try next time to get it down to a HAIR as thin as my own hair is getting.:wink:
Thanks again,
Thanks for the reply.
My stroke is fine, but I know how even a bit off from center can affect a shot. That is why I have been shooting with a chosen side in or out for so many years.
I'll try next time to get it down to a HAIR as thin as my own hair is getting.:wink:
Thanks again,
Thanks for clearing this up for me CJ.
I hit the QB a little off center to the right even though I am aiming center on the QB. I'm right handed and was wondering if left handed players may hit the QB a little to the left of QB center?
I thought I was the only one with this issue.
Been practicing using no english lately. Its cool, now I see that the need for english is not needed on most shots (99%).
I ordered your new DVD, cant wait for the demonstrations.
Since following your suggestions my fundementals have really improved.
I now approach the game with a lot more confidence.
Happy T-Day
John
A good way to look at this is how a roofer learns to walk both ways along a roof edge without falling off. At first, the novice roofer instinctively wants to stay as far away as he can, but in time he learns to get real close (a "touch of inside", so to speak) walking both ways without ever erring to the wrong side.
No "trial and error" on this one, though.
You keep alluding to this notion of energy transfer from the CB to the object ball. What (aside from speed, spin and the mass of the CB) are you transferring? We all know you can't "pack" potential energy into the CB by hitting it "correctly"... don't we?