Viability of English and Low Squirt Shafts

[Masayoshi]

It may be just as easy as pivoting when you've practiced it enough, but why would I want to spend the time on something that limits CB control?


Controlling swerve vs. controlling the CB means different choices for tip offset, butt elevation and speed. If they're different then there's obviously a tradeoff, and the trade is obviously more swerve control for less CB control. I think that's inescapable. So what's the benefit that's worth giving up some CB control?

pj <- assuming it's equally easy, which I'm not convinced of
chgo

Like I said before.

Speed should be roughly the same no matter what method you are using because using the same speed (or in non-Buddy Hall cases, the same 2 or 3 speeds) on every shot increases consistency by a great deal. So there is no tradeoff in speed.

You can use any tip offset you want provided you account for the curve with elevation, so there is no tradeoff there either.

I guess you could claim that butt elevation is a tradeoff, but really, its not like you are jacking up on every shot, just slightly inclined...and wait a minute, what am I saying...The tenet behind pivot techniques is that you must keep your butt as flat as possible so that you minimize curve. So logically, pivot methods would limit you MORE than parallel english because with parallel english you are able to adjusat your elevation freely.

Also 99% of cue ball control is simply a function of the speed you use, how the cue ball is rolling when it hits the object ball, and how much english you use. But again, ideally, your speed should be consistent on every shot. So by that measure, there really is nothing significant you can do with pivot methods that you can't do with parallel english EXCEPT for the aforementioned extemely hard shots and extremely close shots (actually you can do these things, it just becomes extremely difficult).

You could probably come up with a scenario where curving into the object ball creates an unfavorable angle off the object ball (even though the difference between the two is probably only a couple degrees at most), but really if you are shooting a shot that has such a small window to be successful, you are probably better off shooting a different shot.

 

[Bob Jewett]

The cue ball isn't rotating until after the tip strikes it, and the rotation starts taking affect largely after the ball leaves the tip, ...

I'm not sure what you intended here, but the cue ball will never have more RPMs of side spin or draw than at the instant the tip and ball separate.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Develop a shot that enables you to maximize the pocket size.

How much english do you use and does that amount have a correlation with whether you like Low Squirt shafts? Do Low Squirt shafts also help with draw/follow? Do you normally use english only on certain shots, no shots, to get in line only, or to stay in line? It seems to me that english is extremely useful in banks, kicks, and specialty shots (throw due to obstructing balls), but I generally use outside english on shots (position play notwithstanding) because it seems to me that 0.95 tips of english will play the same way as 1.05 tips of english, whereas 0.25 tips of left play way different than 0.25 tips of right. Opine with your thoughts and thought process.

I personally have little training in pool, most of my thought process is obtained from interpreting articles by Dr. Dave and Bob Jewett with my own experiences. Any misrepresentation or errors in statement are mine, not theirs.

"Low Deflection" shafts are fine, but they still deflect slightly. I'm of the opinion that it's better to TRY to throw the shots and make the deflection process "your best friend," rather than some "evil enemy."

There's two trains of thought when playing rotation games. One is to let the table dictate what shot you hit. That would mean you look at the shot and it tells you what speed, what spin, and what angle (is the best to get on your next shot).

The other way is what I suggest. Develop a shot that enables you to maximize the pocket size. This means you line up to undercut the shot slightly (aim in the pocket, but on the "undercut side") and then either spin it, or deflect it to overcut{side} slightly.

Earl spins to accomplish this and I deflect it to "throw it in the pocket." I want to look at the table situation and MAKE my shot fit the scenario. I know this is not the "conventional" way of playing, but it's very effective and works great on tight, worn equipment. On new, fast cloth you shouldn't hit the shots quite as firm.

My preference is to deflect the ball slightly with a "Touch" of Inside because I can get a more consistent result by adjusting my speed, rather than my "aim". Then you can start playing a consistent angle as well. This means you're controlling the angle, the speed, and the spin according to your preference, not because the "table tells you the shot."

Sounds backwards, however, think about it, how well could you play if you hit the same speed, {same}place on the cue ball, and{same} angle{most}every time?

If I undercut a shot I hit it firmer and accelerate more next time. If you miss the same shot hitting a "slow spin shot," you don't really know what happened if you miss. There's more calulations, so therefore more variables to deal with.

This doesn't enable you to play a lot better, but it does enable you to know why you don't make shots. It's vitally important, when you don't make one to immediately know what happened exactly!

If you make an adjustment that's incorrect it could throw you off temporately enough to lose a whole match or gambling set. The amount of money involved in matches I've played prohibited this type of guessing. I had to KNOW!

When you spin the ball or try to hit center and miss there's a lot more variatables and it's difficult to know and adjust for "misses". This effects your ability to maximize "margin of error."

"The difference between an amateur and a professional is an amateur will practice until they CAN make shots and a professional will practice until they CAN'T miss shots." CJ Wiley

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The cue ball isn't rotating until after the tip strikes it, and the rotation starts taking affect largely after the ball leaves the tip

The cue ball gains rotational speed the entire time the tip is in contact with it, which begins to slow the instant the tip is no longer in contact.

Friction between the cloth and the ball is the major factor in determining how much squirt is involved in a shot.

The "squirted" initial direction of the cue ball is just like the "unsquirted" initial direction - neither one is changed by cloth friction unless the cue ball has masse spin.

If you minimize friction, you'll minimize squirt.

You'll actually minimize swerve (which is caused by cloth friction), which will make it appear that there's more squirt, even though squirt will be the same.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...there really is nothing significant you can do with pivot methods that you can't do with parallel english...

I guess this is where we just disagree. I don't see how biasing my choice of cueing technique doesn't limit my cue ball control, and I don't see an aiming benefit that's worth that for me.

pj
chgo

 

[naji]

I guess this is where we just disagree. I don't see how biasing my choice of cueing technique doesn't limit my cue ball control, and I don't see an aiming benefit that's worth that for me.

pj
chgo

Hi PJ, what is your skill level at your best estimation? What is your favorite game? Thanks.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Hi PJ, what is your skill level at your best estimation? What is your favorite game? Thanks.

B+ and one pocket (but I play 10 ball and 8 ball regularly too).

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

How much english do you use

Like others, I use english only when it is called for, and then I use the amount appropriate for the given shot.

and does that amount have a correlation with whether you like Low Squirt shafts?

No. However, I do prefer and use a low-squirt shaft because of the advantages it offers me personally. For a complete list of both advantages and disadvantages, see:

low squirt (low deflection or LD) shaft advantages and disadvantages​

An LD shaft certainly doesn't directly help one get more spin on the ball; although, some people might think this. For more info, see:

getting more spin with an LD shaft​

Whether one uses an LD shaft or not, one still needs to know how to adjust one's aim for squirt, swerve, and throw where appropriate. For more info, see:

aim compensation for squirt (cue ball deflection), swerve, and throw​

Regards,
Dave

 

[Jal]

I still fail to see how this differs from stroking straight at the "swooped" angle of impact. How are they different?

It depends on how you define squirt. I'm using it to mean the angle between the long-axis of the shaft and the cueball's initial direction at/after impact. In that sense, the diagram below illustrates two very different squirt angles for the same effective tip offset (spin/speed ratio).

Is there something you can accomplish with one but not the other?

Unless you like to fan the cueball between shots, I can't think of anything, which is the point you're emphasizing. So the same thing as in the first figure above (swiping) can be done with a straight stroke, per below:




Jim

 

[Jal]

The cue ball isn't rotating until after the tip strikes it, and the rotation starts taking affect largely after the ball leaves the tip, so I don't see how "the rotating cue ball always pushes the tip sideways."

I didn't ask for a definition of squirt. I already know what it is. I think your understanding of how, and when, squirt takes place may be a little deficient. Friction between the cloth and the ball is the major factor in determining how much squirt is involved in a shot. If you minimize friction, you'll minimize squirt.

Roger

Roger, if I may, I think you should take Patrick's response to heart. I'm certain you won't find anyone with the relevant technical background (and sober) who'll disagree with his points.

Jim

 

[dr_dave]

... Friction between the cloth and the ball is the major factor in determining how much squirt is involved in a shot. If you minimize friction, you'll minimize squirt.

Roger,

As PJ has stated, squirt (initial CB deflection) does not depend on cloth friction or shot speed. It depends only on the endmass of the shaft and the amount of tip offset. However, swerve (CB curve) does depend a lot on cloth conditions and shot speed (and cue elevation, and whether or not the CB has top or bottom spin). When you say "squirt," do you mean the net effect of squirt and swerve (AKA "squerve" or "net CB deflection" or "net effective squirt")? That might help explain the apparent disagreement.

Here are some illustrations from my squirt, swerve, throw confusion resource page that might help:

The following video also demonstrates the separate effects and explains how they are related:

NV B.70 - Squirt (cue ball deflection), swerve, and throw, from VEPS II​

Regards,
Dave

 

[naji]

Roger,

As PJ has stated, squirt (initial CB deflection) does not depend on cloth friction or shot speed. It depends only on the endmass of the shaft and the amount of tip offset. However, swerve (CB curve) does depend a lot on cloth conditions and shot speed (and cue elevation, and whether or not the CB has top or bottom spin). When you say "squirt," do you mean the net effect of squirt and swerve (AKA "squerve" or "net CB deflection" or "net effective squirt")? That might help explain the apparent disagreement.

Here are some illustrations from my squirt, swerve, throw confusion resource page that might help:

The following video also demonstrates the separate effects and explains how they are related:

NV B.70 - Squirt (cue ball deflection), swerve, and throw, from VEPS II​

Regards,
Dave

Hi Dave,
Your graph does not say that throw happens only at slow speed (gearing) or stun. Is there a chance it can be modified one day. Thanks.

 

[Masayoshi]

Hi Dave,
Your graph does not say that throw happens only at slow speed (gearing) or stun. Is there a chance it can be modified one day. Thanks.

It happens at all speeds due to friction. It just happens less at high speed

 

[naji]

It happens at all speeds due to friction. It just happens less at high speed

I have to disagree here, if you have rolling CB at high speed and clean balls there will be no throw with english or no english. Just make sure the rolling already developed enough before it touches the OB.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I have to disagree here, if you have rolling CB at high speed and clean balls there will be no throw with english or no english. Just make sure the rolling already developed enough before it touches the OB.

With clean balls and a CB rolling at high speed throw is probably so small it doesn't matter (even less with inside spin), but it still technically exists. I don't think there's ever a time when friction between the rubbing surfaces is zero.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

With clean balls and a CB rolling at high speed throw is probably so small it doesn't matter (even less with inside spin), but it still technically exists. I don't think there's ever a time when friction between the rubbing surfaces is zero.

Throw is less at fast speed (in general), and with follow or draw, and with lots of inside english, but there is throw on every cut shot except when there is a "gearing" amount of outside english, in which case there is absolutely no throw.

For those interested in proof or additional information (including video demonstrations) related to this topic, see:

gearing outside english
throw resource page
squirt, swerve, and throw effects resource page​

Regards,
Dave

 

[iusedtoberich]

I'd like to thank the science guys for sticking in threads like these. It's so obvious that even good players have the information incorrect as to what is happening. The more the science guys correct the assumptions with video, math, and diagram proof, the sooner the "science" will become the common knowledge, instead of today's black magic understanding of the game.

 

[Roger Long]

Roger,

As PJ has stated, squirt (initial CB deflection) does not depend on cloth friction or shot speed. It depends only on the endmass of the shaft and the amount of tip offset. However, swerve (CB curve) does depend a lot on cloth conditions and shot speed (and cue elevation, and whether or not the CB has top or bottom spin). When you say "squirt," do you mean the net effect of squirt and swerve (AKA "squerve" or "net CB deflection" or "net effective squirt")? That might help explain the apparent disagreement.

Here are some illustrations from my squirt, swerve, throw confusion resource page that might help:

The following video also demonstrates the separate effects and explains how they are related:

NV B.70 - Squirt (cue ball deflection), swerve, and throw, from VEPS II​

Regards,
Dave

Dave:

Those are nice illustrations, but they're not proof of anything. They just illustrate your theory.

Whenever you mention "tip offset," I have to assume that you are meaning latitudinal offset. But I've been trying to emphasize that longitudinal tip offset plays a greater role than either latitudinal offset, or shaft "endmass," in the amount of actual cue ball deflection ("squirt") one experiences on any given shot.

My personal tests have shown that whenever I strike the cue ball above the equator with a normally elevated cue (which is more level than your illustration, by the way), using normal speed, and using parallel english (even though Patrick doesn't think parallel english exists), the cue ball rolls straight to the target. No deflection. No swerve. (At least that's what the observation from my end of the cue has always been.)

Last night, I had the opportunity to ask Tommy Kennedy to shoot this test multiple times while I observed the results from the other end of the table. Then I shot the test multiple times while he observed from the other end of the table. We both observed the same results: no deflection, no swerve. The cue ball did not push away from the aim line and then curve back to the aim line.

So, my assumption is that you must be hitting the cue ball lower than I whenever you do your tests; and my theory is that the different results are due to the difference in the amount of friction between the ball and the cloth. And, as long as you stay above the equator with your hit, it doesn't matter if you use a standard wood shaft, a graphite shaft, or a "low-deflection" shaft; the results will be the same: no deflection, no swerve.

Roger
(p.s. Tommy showed me some shots that can only be made with a graphite shaft, due to its stiffness. Just a little benefit to you Cue Tec users. :wink

 

[duckie]

This is a good example of setting up a test to prove anything you want.

In the test setup of a couple of test, the real world factors were either eliminated or efforts were made to reduce their affects.

In all, a level curve was used. The consistent use of a level cue in pool is impossible. More times than not, the cue will be somewhat elevated.

In one, the OB was hung like a blob pump, not even on a flat surface.

In one, the OB was on a silicone sprayed surface the OB was placed on in order to eliminate the affects of the cloth.

The speeds used in the testing are not reflective of the speeds used in shoot making. A speed of 2 mph, which is the low end in one test,is 2.9 ft per second or 35.2 in per second was used in one test. In one test, a speed of .7 ms is used, which is 2.2 ft per second or 27.5 in per second.

On a 9 ft table, the diamonds are 12 1/2 inches apart. Consider this next time you are playing. Better, just do one rack of 14.1 and see how many times you hit at any of these speeds used in testing.

So, do the tests really take into account the real world playing conditions or only conditions needed to prove a theroy?

I've mentioned counter steering in the past. This is a method of making a motorcycle or bicycle turn. The concept is to turn right, you push on the right bar which makes the front wheel turn left making the bike lean right. The rate of the push controls the rate of lean.

However, this method of steering works only above a certain speed. Below this speed, normal steering input is used meaning to turn right, you pull on the right bar and at these low speeds, the bike does not lean.

What this speed is where the crossover happens is not the same for every bike. So, there are conditions that you need to understand that occur to make this crossover happen.

Same with squirt. It only occurs under certain conditions so it is important to understand those conditions so you can stay below them in order to eliminate squirt. Anyone that uses squirt in order to make a shot is just adding unnecessary complications to their shot making. You will find this out the first time you play on sub standard equipment or conditions.

I've never have adjusted for squirt or defection. Why, because the way I play, squirt is not a factor. Like counter steering, I stay below the conditions where squirt can happen.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Dave:


My personal tests have shown that whenever I strike the cue ball above the equator with a normally elevated cue (which is more level than your illustration, by the way), using normal speed, and using parallel english (even though Patrick doesn't think parallel english exists), the cue ball rolls straight to the target. No deflection. No swerve. (At least that's what the observation from my end of the cue has always been.)


Roger
(p.s. Tommy showed me some shots that can only be made with a graphite shaft, due to its stiffness. Just a little benefit to you Cue Tec users. :wink

Mr. Long,

From my 46 yrs. of experience in hitting the shot you describe, high-side english (10:45 to 1:15) at 'rolling' speed, I do not believe the CB rolls perfectly straight. I agree with you that any deflection/squirt is drastically reduced or offset by a much quicker swerve. However I feel the ball rolls with a ever so slight 'drift' (gradual swerve) to the english side.

The effect is to add a bit more cut & perhaps a bit of spin induced throw or 'gearing'/nuetrallizing spin & natually a different angle coming of of a rail. The later usually being the reason for shooting such a shot.

Naturally everything we're discussing is dependent on speed of hit, cue stick angle, cloth friction, & wind from the a/c blowing from the wall opposite from the english side & table lean.:wink:

In all seriousness, I think it would be an interesting laser line high speed video study.

Also, what is that graphite cue only shoot? I'm using a Cuetec Break/Jump cue & I was useing a graphite before the Cuetec.

Best Regards,