So is there footage of the famous 1990's Challenge of Champions dumping scandal?

Exactly!!! People wanting to air this video on this board is just a bad idea in general. Sweep that crap under the rug and move on. Nothing but bad things can happen if this is shown or made public. Anybody saying any differently is somebody that is disrespecting our sport :mad:

Yeah it happened many moons ago and crap like this has nearly destoryed pool all together!! Lets move forward now ----------->

I agree with you, that was over 20 years ago. Present day we are still waiting for players to be paid from this year's U.S. Open. :(
 
The damage to the game has already been done, by the players involved.

And there's really no good reason not to air it, if it's available. Perhaps it would even serve to dissuade players from acting similarly, should another "opportunity" arise. We talk about hustles and swindles here all the time and, to be honest, it's a part of the sport's culture and history. I mean, lol, Freddy is coming out with an encyclopedia on the subject, for cryin' out loud.

Lou Figueroa
 
I agree with you, that was over 20 years ago. Present day we are still waiting for players to be paid from this year's U.S. Open. :(

Now I'm confused (again in thei thread). Discussion about the event is disrespecting pool, yet you wrote about it in your book? (Maybe it wasn't in your book, I thought it was, but I also thought Earl was the one that refrained from the business).

Thanks man

Kevin
 
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The damage to the game has already been done, by the players involved.

And there's really no good reason not to air it, if it's available. Perhaps it would even serve to dissuade players from acting similarly, should another "opportunity" arise. We talk about hustles and swindles here all the time and, to be honest, it's a part of the sport's culture and history. I mean, lol, Freddy is coming out with an encyclopedia on the subject, for cryin' out loud.

Lou Figueroa

Lou

I know. Its all part of the culture and I'm not sure that it what is "hurting pool". Every time I read a thesis about what's wrong with pool I always think, hey, that's "wrong" with poker too. Why is it people want to watch poker and not pool? It sure can't be, the players dress bad, act bad, act shady, have moves or any of the things that people say killed pool. So what gives?

Kevin
 
Thanks Jay. Interesting that each bet was maxed at $200. I am not sure if they do that with other sports book bets. I wonder if they maxed it because they foresaw the possibility of too much $ influencing play.

There is a limit to how much action the book will take on any bet.

The limits are far higher on the mainstream sports.
 
Lou

I know. Its all part of the culture and I'm not sure that it what is "hurting pool". Every time I read a thesis about what's wrong with pool I always think, hey, that's "wrong" with poker too. Why is it people want to watch poker and not pool? It sure can't be, the players dress bad, act bad, act shady, have moves or any of the things that people say killed pool. So what gives?

Kevin


I don't have a good answer, Kevin.

I think park of it is that there's a structure for participating in poker, from regular Friday/Saturday night games, family games, the casino poker rooms, up to the satellites and main event. Pool used to be like that in that there where rec rooms and, at least starting with "The Hustler" renaissance, way more rooms where people could participate in the game. Now, we have far, far fewer rooms, and subsequently, far fewer local events and less for opportunities for people to play the game. Part of that is just that the world has changed and, pool takes a lot of skill and is super tough to get good at. IOW, there will never be a Chris Moneymaker winning a major pool tournament.

I think there was a window of opportunity for pool that opened up 30/40 years ago but we missed the boat. Now, other than league play, pool has devolved to the point 3C used to be at -- an obscure game people in this country, if they ever even see a billiard table, wonder what *that's* about.

Lou Figueroa
 
Now I'm confused (again in thei thread). Discussion about the event is disrespecting pool, yet you wrote about it in your book? (Maybe it wasn't in your book, I thought it was, but I also thought Earl was the one that refrained from the business).

Thanks man

Kevin


I did make some minor errors in my book. Let me set the record straight. It was Allen who refused to be part of it. He was good friends with Matt Braun (the promoter of the event) and wouldn't deceive him. The following year Earl was invited and before the player's meeting (I was there for that one also) Earl told the other guys he wouldn't be part of any deals. No deal was made the second year or any year thereafter, as far as I know.
 
I did make some minor errors in my book. Let me set the record straight. It was Allen who refused to be part of it. He was good friends with Matt Braun (the promoter of the event) and wouldn't deceive him. The following year Earl was invited and before the player's meeting (I was there for that one also) Earl told the other guys he wouldn't be part of any deals. No deal was made the second year or any year thereafter, as far as I know.

Did you say it was Earl first time around in your book? I remembered right but what I remembered was wrong?

Earl still comes out smelling like a rose. He must be a ***** to TD for.

Kevin
 
I did make some minor errors in my book. Let me set the record straight. It was Allen who refused to be part of it. He was good friends with Matt Braun (the promoter of the event) and wouldn't deceive him. The following year Earl was invited and before the player's meeting (I was there for that one also) Earl told the other guys he wouldn't be part of any deals. No deal was made the second year or any year thereafter, as far as I know.

Hi Jay: You weren't really wrong about Earl if what a person with the handle "Professor" from a site called Southern Billiards says is accurate:

"There were eight players that were to play in the match; supposedly eight of the best players there were at that time. The casino(s), I believe out of Vegas but, I dont recall exactly which one(s), were sponsoring it. It was a $50,000 winner take all tournament. I dont remember the eight players, but two of them were Buddy Hall and Mike LeBron. I truly wish I could name the other six players.

Anyway, one player that was obviously absent from the list was Earl Strickland, player of the year and current world champion. The reason given that Earl could not be there was that he was scheduled to be out of the country and would not be able to play. Now, you need to realize that the conversation I am about to recount to you happened BEFORE the tournament. And, whatever you may think of Earl for whatever reason, the following shot my stock in him through the roof.

I mentioned to Strickland that I hated hearing that he would not be able to compete in the $50,000 Challenge of Champions due to being out of the country. He kind of chuckled in the way that he does and said something to the effect that yea, he would be out of the country but, they had scheduled it that way because they didnt want him to play in it. At that point, I was thinking Earl may have a little too high an opinion of him self. Then what he told me I found totally incredulous. He told me that they planned to split the money ($50,000) up equally among them! Furthermore, the long shot in the tournament (even odds would be 7 to one against) was LeBron, and that the house odds on him were 20 to 1. The idea was that the players could then bet the money back on LeBron. Earl said he would have nothing to do with fixing the match! He said he told them he would play, but that if he did he would be playing to win, and would not agree to any split agreements.

Now, I think you would admit, that was really an unbelievable story. I left that conversation with my first doubts about things Earl says. Well to this day I owe him an apology for having doubted what he said.

The Challenge took place. Now, this was a big thing. I mean in my mind that event was one of the best things that had ever happened to pool. Not only did we have a sponsor behind the event for 50 large, which was great, but, they were also making lines on the event! Now, people may approve or disapprove of gambling, I will not judge others individual beliefs; personally for some people I think it is wrong for them to gamble, and for others I dont. However, I do believe that one of the best things that can happen to a sport, it terms of making it popular, is the ability of the public to wager on it. Bingo! With this event we had two of the best things that could ever happen to pool taking place; a sponsor putting money behind the game and lines were being made legally! Damn, people it dont get any better!

Then I saw the finals of the match! Time and time again I watched the last two innings between Buddy Hall and Mike LeBron, I could NOT believe what I was seeing. It has been a decade or more since I saw it, but I remember it well. They made it look good. The problem was they made it look too good."
 
Its not talking about it that screws everything up, its doing it that screws everything up. Maybe talking about it would inspire an environment where less people want to do it. If you think sponsors want to be involved in a sport that is fixed by the players and yet bills itself as sport rather than entertainment you are wrong. If you think that ignoring or hiding fixing in pool is good for the game, you are wrong again.

Thanks

Kevin


Do you completely read any of the posts made on here?? Im not trying to be a jerk but you obviously didnt read what I wrote. I think you need to re-read post #50 again. He's the end of that post.....



Point is MOVE ON!! Its always gonna be known that this happened but bringing anything up, no matter what it is, in a negative light is not good.



 
Hi Jay: You weren't really wrong about Earl if what a person with the handle "Professor" from a site called Southern Billiards says is accurate:

"There were eight players that were to play in the match; supposedly eight of the best players there were at that time. The casino(s), I believe out of Vegas but, I dont recall exactly which one(s), were sponsoring it. It was a $50,000 winner take all tournament. I dont remember the eight players, but two of them were Buddy Hall and Mike LeBron. I truly wish I could name the other six players.

Anyway, one player that was obviously absent from the list was Earl Strickland, player of the year and current world champion. The reason given that Earl could not be there was that he was scheduled to be out of the country and would not be able to play. Now, you need to realize that the conversation I am about to recount to you happened BEFORE the tournament. And, whatever you may think of Earl for whatever reason, the following shot my stock in him through the roof.

I mentioned to Strickland that I hated hearing that he would not be able to compete in the $50,000 Challenge of Champions due to being out of the country. He kind of chuckled in the way that he does and said something to the effect that yea, he would be out of the country but, they had scheduled it that way because they didnt want him to play in it. At that point, I was thinking Earl may have a little too high an opinion of him self. Then what he told me I found totally incredulous. He told me that they planned to split the money ($50,000) up equally among them! Furthermore, the long shot in the tournament (even odds would be 7 to one against) was LeBron, and that the house odds on him were 20 to 1. The idea was that the players could then bet the money back on LeBron. Earl said he would have nothing to do with fixing the match! He said he told them he would play, but that if he did he would be playing to win, and would not agree to any split agreements.

Now, I think you would admit, that was really an unbelievable story. I left that conversation with my first doubts about things Earl says. Well to this day I owe him an apology for having doubted what he said.

The Challenge took place. Now, this was a big thing. I mean in my mind that event was one of the best things that had ever happened to pool. Not only did we have a sponsor behind the event for 50 large, which was great, but, they were also making lines on the event! Now, people may approve or disapprove of gambling, I will not judge others individual beliefs; personally for some people I think it is wrong for them to gamble, and for others I dont. However, I do believe that one of the best things that can happen to a sport, it terms of making it popular, is the ability of the public to wager on it. Bingo! With this event we had two of the best things that could ever happen to pool taking place; a sponsor putting money behind the game and lines were being made legally! Damn, people it dont get any better!

Then I saw the finals of the match! Time and time again I watched the last two innings between Buddy Hall and Mike LeBron, I could NOT believe what I was seeing. It has been a decade or more since I saw it, but I remember it well. They made it look good. The problem was they made it look too good."

Wow.

This is strong stuff. Thanks for posting it.

Kevin
 
Do you completely read any of the posts made on here?? Im not trying to be a jerk but you obviously didnt read what I wrote. I think you need to re-read post #50 again. He's the end of that post.....



Point is MOVE ON!! Its always gonna be known that this happened but bringing anything up, no matter what it is, in a negative light is not good.




Thank for putting your point in bold. I read it before and didn't agree with it. I read it in bold and don't agree with it. Maybe if you went to a larger font you could win me over.

Thanks

Kevin
 
I don't have a good answer, Kevin.

I think park of it is that there's a structure for participating in poker, from regular Friday/Saturday night games, family games, the casino poker rooms, up to the satellites and main event. Pool used to be like that in that there where rec rooms and, at least starting with "The Hustler" renaissance, way more rooms where people could participate in the game. Now, we have far, far fewer rooms, and subsequently, far fewer local events and less for opportunities for people to play the game. Part of that is just that the world has changed and, pool takes a lot of skill and is super tough to get good at. IOW, there will never be a Chris Moneymaker winning a major pool tournament.

I think there was a window of opportunity for pool that opened up 30/40 years ago but we missed the boat. Now, other than league play, pool has devolved to the point 3C used to be at -- an obscure game people in this country, if they ever even see a billiard table, wonder what *that's* about.

Lou Figueroa

Lou

Maybe its just things change. Even 3-C was famous at one time, Hoppe was a household name. If there's a kid under the age of 16 anywhere in the US playing 3-C now I'd be surprised. And to speak to the "this is killing pool" thoughts, it wasn't scandal or poor dress or poor behavior for sure that killed 3-C, it just died from lack of interest.

Kevin
 
Thank for putting your point in bold. I read it before and didn't agree with it. I read it in bold and don't agree with it. Maybe if you went to a larger font you could win me over.

Thanks

Kevin

All caps gets me every time.
 
thank for putting your point in bold. I read it before and didn't agree with it. I read it in bold and don't agree with it. Maybe if you went to a larger font you could win me over.

Thanks

kevin



you seriously dont agree with this bold statement?!?!!! Wow!!!!!!
 
I think the last boat that was missed....

I don't have a good answer, Kevin.

I think park of it is that there's a structure for participating in poker, from regular Friday/Saturday night games, family games, the casino poker rooms, up to the satellites and main event. Pool used to be like that in that there where rec rooms and, at least starting with "The Hustler" renaissance, way more rooms where people could participate in the game. Now, we have far, far fewer rooms, and subsequently, far fewer local events and less for opportunities for people to play the game. Part of that is just that the world has changed and, pool takes a lot of skill and is super tough to get good at. IOW, there will never be a Chris Moneymaker winning a major pool tournament.

I think there was a window of opportunity for pool that opened up 30/40 years ago but we missed the boat. Now, other than league play, pool has devolved to the point 3C used to be at -- an obscure game people in this country, if they ever even see a billiard table, wonder what *that's* about.

Lou Figueroa

Was when congress decided to unconstitutionally make tobacco advertising illegal in an attempt to protect people from themselves, there by killing the camel pro billiards tour right as it was getting started.

Jaden
 
Tell me something i DON'T know.:D

Rare Facts – Cool!!..
June 25, 2008 at 11:51 am (Around the World, Funny, Rare)

•Intelligent people have more zinc and copper in their hair.
•The world’s youngest parents were 8 and 9 and lived in China in 1910.
•Our eyes remain the same size from birth onward, but our nose and ears never stop growing.
•You burn more calories sleeping than you do watching TV.
•A person will die from total lack of sleep sooner than from starvation. Death will occur about 10 days without sleep, while starvation takes a few weeks.
•Chewing gum while peeling onions will keep you from crying.
•Mona Lisa had no eyebrows.
•When the moon is directly overhead, you weigh slightly less.
•Alexander Graham Bell, the inventor of the telephone, never telephoned his wife or mother because they were both deaf.
•“I Am.” is the shortest complete sentence in the English language.
•Colgate faced big obstacle marketing toothpaste in Spanish speaking countries because Colgate translates into the command “go hang yourself.”

Mission Accomplished! Ok.. well.. maybe..

And remember, vending machines are your friend.

IMvmachine.jpg
 
The way that I heard it (from a player involved in the event ) was that Earl was one of the original eight invitees. The scam was set up by one of the other participating players - it probably wouldn't need an Enstein to work out who.
They were to divide the $50k between them which did mean that they needed to find someone to bridge that and use it to stake money.
Allen Hopkins was not in the original list.
When Earl refused to collude on the scam he withdrew from the event and he was replaced by Tony Ellin.
One of the players had to remortgage his house to get his stake money.
But he had enough equity to raise an extra $5000. He took it and bet that too.
 
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