What center cueball has done for "The Blade"Stevie Moore

Palmetto cue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That's incorrect. In fact, the truth is quite the opposite. Playing superb pool is about reducing variables and swing thoughts down to a "video game" level. Not about introducing variables (the side-effects of the "why") into real-life game play.

If you were fishing for yourself and the yellow lure caught fish and the red one didn't, you'd never waste time studying why the red lure dogged it, you'd just keep snapping jaws back with the yellow one. Maybe the yellow one is a plastic bird -- not even something a fish eats--- who knows, who cares, it just works-- and eating is what matters. The red one can be a Rebel crayfish and it's supposed to work with all logic, but can't catch shit.

You can't get out of the way of the minutia and always strive to maximize the micro vs the macro.

Mahna made a good point. You've never posted any videos showing your playing prowess; yet you feel "qualified" to "grade" CJ's posts. To be fair, it's not just you--- Duckie is another one who follows around CJ just to knock his posts--- he's a self-proclaimed APA 4 or 5 player.

I mean, if either of you guys could post up a decent run or string some racks on video, maybe your critiques would hold more juice.

I think AZB has been tremendously patient with guys like you, honestly. For YEARS you and your crew fought hard to chase away the pros to the point where NONE remained and those who thought about posting, were told not to by their peers.

Now that we have a few pros posting again, you guys are trying HARD to get rid of them -- par for the course for you guys. If this were my forum, I WOULD give pros special attention. I WOULD give pros the help they needed to feel comfortable. I WOULD ban those who attacked them for sharing "their" information and "their" view of the game.

It's the PROS who bring value to a forum like this--- not the self-proclaimed expert academics with no playing history to speak of.

I hope Mike/Jerry/Wilson protect the very few pros we have here. The other pros who have since left us did so because they weren't the "writing mechanics" that their detractors clearly were and quickly found themselves "out-posted and out-witted" every time they dared say anything.

In fact, every tour pro should be made a moderator here.
If they think someone is knocking them or being a blatant jerk -- they can BAN them themselves. That's NOT to say players can't disagree with them. If they do, they should be careful to do so in a polite and respectful way, NEVER implying or injecting insults (like PJ, Duckie, Lou Figueroa, and the crew).

Bartram should be the action room / main mod, CJ/Stevie can mod the aiming section, Fran can mod the ask the instructor forum, etc. Make this a forum were pros feel protected and let them have the JUICE required to feel like this place is their HOME.

Force guys like Duck, PJ, Lou and others to be respectful or hit the road.

Great post! I look forward to the learning oppurtunities from the pros on AZ. Hopefully other pros will join the discussions. Taking the ideas to the table to try them out as Mike said is the only way to see if they work for you, or to make sure you understand them fully. Just my 2 cents. :thumbup:
 

UGOTDA7

Ban pending.....
Silver Member
I wonder if the same people griping about these supposed infomercials are the same ones who griped about the water at Hank's.......they do seem as if they share some of the same qualities.
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
Ooh you mean sorta like communist China?

Yes, I'm sure that is exactly what spider meant :confused: Because, we know, that we don't "punish" folks in the good old USA when they get out of line, or become "stalkers" of sort...
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
No worries the forum is now 79% clueless and 20% "system/secret" pushers.

I expect I must be in the clueless category.

I don't know what I am to do, without PJ to save me from those evil secret "pushers"....oh woe is me. Where is a hero when we need one? Help, help!
 

Slasher

KE = 0.5 • m • v2
Silver Member
Yes, I'm sure that is exactly what spider meant :confused: Because, we know, that we don't "punish" folks in the good old USA when they get out of line, or become "stalkers" of sort...

I have a hard time distinguishing who was more vocal and persistent the stalkers or the evangelicals.
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
Please list your qualifications and accomplishments in regard to pool so we can all better evaluate what you saying.

Thanks in advance.

Oh, you forgot about his "cue making" abiliites. While shooting at a local poolroom, PJ's friend who use to go to my fathers pool room back in the late 70's saw me and we chit chatted. I mentioned I shoot with OB shafts only now, and he did not "buy" into the whole LD bullshit.... because afterall, you still have to "adjust" even if it is a little.

No biggie, to each his own. But then I get the "well, have you seen Pat's cue, his shaft has NO deflection, he "rigged" it himself, and it's amazing... I just nodded politely while trying not to laugh.... He doesn't buy the whole "LD" business but in Pat he trusts :)

I also did not realize Pat could do a better job than OB, Predator, Tiger and many others that build LD shafts... not really sure why those companies spend hundreds of thousands in research when Pat was just a phone call away :wink:
 
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Shaft

Hooked and Improving
Silver Member
You know, it was not so much what PJ said, but how he addressed everyone with disdain, condescension, and ugly disrespect.

Maybe in two years PJ will grow up a bit, but somehow I am not certain he will.

Good luck, PJ. I will miss your sport, but not your vitriol.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
You know, it was not so much what PJ said, but how he addressed everyone with disdain, condescension, and ugly disrespect.

Maybe in two years PJ will grow up a bit, but somehow I am not certain he will.

Good luck, PJ. I will miss your sport, but not your vitriol.

Well & simply stated, Sir

Regards to You &
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
I understand the techniques. The misstatements I correct are simple factual matters that don't address whether the techniques work, but how they do.

It's remarkable that those who claim to be the most eager to learn these techniques aren't interested in taking a close look at the claims made for them. It's almost like they don't want their faith contradicted.

pj
chgo

I know you're banned and I do wish that you weren't and that you could have brought yourself to be a positive contributor to the conversation.

But you are flat out wrong when you say that those of us who are eager to learn are not interested in HOW these techniques work. Some of us have spent a lot of time breaking down the steps and trying very hard to understand the WHY of it.

The problem is that you were never actually interested in discussing those efforts. Even when we visited in person and I showed you what I do you would not even consider trying to duplicate the steps I was showing you. I feel that if you had learned the steps at least and then played with them you possibly could have had something positive to contribute as to WHERE you found that CTE works by feel.

But you never wanted to do that. And the same applies to what CJ has to teach and what Stan has to teach. Even with Stan's DVD you wouldn't take it to the table and just try it with an open mind. And under that sort of attitude the dialog can never move truly into the WHY CTE works from your side of it.

Those of us who really have spent time learning it have put in the table time. We have made videos, we have drawn diagrams, we have asked pros for their opinion, we have talked to high level instructors about it. In other words we not only learned to fish we have learned more about fish and fishing than we ever really wanted to know before learning these methods.

It's not about faith. Pool is a simple proposition. Make the balls do what you want them to do. If the task is to make the ball then the result is easy to see, either the ball went in or it didn't. So the use of any system is easy for the user to see the effectiveness. And to be fair you eventually conceded that they "can be" effective. I think that is because the overwhelming amount of people testifying to having great results forced you to finally admit that. But then you just had to continue with the insults about it being a matter of faith rather than a matter of fact. Or a matter of feel rather than accepting that it's entirely possible to have a set method that allows the player to easily aim any shot with no guessing.

So honestly Pat, it's you who was keeping the faith that it's all and only about feel. We even conceded that point and allowed that there is SOME feel and discussed how much and where it is but even that was not enough for you to have a normal discussion without condescension.

Now when we FINALLY got a few bonafide champions here to discuss their methods you don't want to discuss things with them you just extended your disdain onto them. That is the tragedy.

Imagine if Michael Jordan stepped into a basketball forum to explain his method for making jump shots and his "system" so to speak and someone else constantly heckled him with trajectory and air friction data to contradict what he was saying? I mean I can understand when you, a pool nobody, argues with me, another pool nobody, about how to play pool. I can't understand why you argue with an expert, which is what a champion is. Maybe not an expert in the science of it but in the experience and there is nothing that a top player is going to tell an amateur which will hurt their game in my opinion.

So I for one, am truly sad that you are gone but I honestly would rather have professional players offering their perspectives rather than to have your opinions and nitpicking.
 

Craig

Custom Cue-Repair
Silver Member
Guys like PJ are simply amazing with ignorance. You have two World Champion caliber pool players with a proven history winning tournaments and beating some of the best gambling, posting for FREE on a message forum trying to help people that are interested.

This guy would probably challenge a heart surgeon on how to do open heart surgery.

Ignorance is FREE and he seems to have a endless supply.
 
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JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
Do we have any expert that would give PJ a free lesson as an experiment if he was willing to approach it with an open mind. He would find it useful or not useful. It seems that if he tried it and it didn't work, he could report why he didn't like it or visa versa. But most importantly it could bring the sides together so that everyone starts to view each other as people and not as usernames or avatars. There has to be a more logical way of breeding a culture of civility than just banning people. But that all starts with us... the users and keeping the moderator out of it.

Unfortunately, some people are predisposed to having things their way only. They refuse to conform to the standards of others and find that tey can get away with bullying others who are less inclined to fight with words. Primarily I'm talking about civility. Children are often taught to mind their manners and when they misbehave they are punished. It is apparent that logic doesn't work well with children (hence the punishment) and sometimes it doesn't work with immature adults. This is one way to muzzle those who misbehave. You can only talk to those who won't listen just so much, then you just have to find an alternative.

We'll all miss Patrick's insight and perspectives about the physical aspects of pool but sadly the forum will be a lot more peaceful and tolerant with him gone. I don't think he's the type to come back under an alias so it will be a two year sabbatical for him. Don't worry, he'll be back in two years.
 

Slasher

KE = 0.5 • m • v2
Silver Member
Guys like PJ are simply amazing with ignorance. You have to World Champion caliber players posting for FREE on a message forum trying to help people that are interested.

This guy would probably challenge a heart surgeon on how to do open heart surgery.

Ignorance is FREE and he seems to have a endless supply.

To be fair there are a number of those highly rated players that have questionable fundamentals, severe cross strokes and an agenda on here.
Yes they made it work for them but I personally would not model my game on what they did. However the members on here are free to do as they like and likewise I don't see whats wrong with challenging some of the techniques being purveyed.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Oh and another thing. I will tell you the one pro that handles himself the best on the forum - Mr. John Brumback. When he has something to share he shares it. But he also throws in a bit of humility. He doesn't pretend that he understands everything there is to know about the game just because he is a pro. This humility goes a long ways for a lot of us.

Any banger, short stop, or pro that comes on this forum and can't be convinced that they are wrong about anything doesn't really have much to offer me. What's the point of engaging with anybody that's not willing to reconsider their position?

For me, forums are about bouncing ideas off of each other, not just being spoon fed the "truth".

Sure people should be willing to have a conversation. But sometimes people should listen first and try out a new technique before going off about how it can't work.

Remember when John Brumback came out with his dvd on banking and The Thaiger went off on him over the price essentially saying that John was ripping off pool players everywhere? Didn't all us leap to John's defense?

And what is an aiming system if not an idea? Why can't we bounce these ideas off each other without putting each other down? Humility goes both ways.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Hey,

I certainly was not a fan of PJ & his 'attitude', nit picking, slurs, innuendo, & flat out insults.

However, I do not think we should jump on & just hit him when he is down while he can not be here to try to defend himself.

He does not need critcism to bash him. If anything he might need some constructive criticism like John Barton's in hope that he will be a better person with a better understanding if & when he returns.

So...can we get back to discussing pool? (without having to know the barometric pressure in the room)

Regards &
 
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Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey,

I certainly was not a fan of PJ's & his 'attitude', nit picking, slurs, innuendo, & flat out insults.

However, I do not think we should jump on & just hit him when he is down while he can not be here to try to defend himself.

He does not need critcism to bash him. If anything he might need some constructive criticism like John Barton's in hope that he will be a better person with a better understanding if & when he returns.

So...can we get back to discussing pool? (without having to know the barometric pressure in the room)

Regards &

I agree. He's paid the price. Instead of a eulogy, let's hope he comes back with better form.

Best,
Mike
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
To be fair there are a number of those highly rated players that have questionable fundamentals, severe cross strokes and an agenda on here.
Yes they made it work for them but I personally would not model my game on what they did. However the members on here are free to do as they like and likewise I don't see whats wrong with challenging some of the techniques being purveyed.

There is nothing wrong with challenging opinions and theories. Where the problem lies is when there is a lack of civility and respect in those challenges, and in general.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
To be fair there are a number of those highly rated players that have questionable fundamentals, severe cross strokes and an agenda on here.
Yes they made it work for them but I personally would not model my game on what they did. However the members on here are free to do as they like and likewise I don't see whats wrong with challenging some of the techniques being purveyed.

It was a couple TAR Shows ago and Justin asked Shane why he strokes the way he does and Shane said he just copied the way that Bustamante did it. When asked why he said because they did it and he figured that if it worked for them it would work for him.

The entire world is built on copying others. If you're not copying a pro then your copying an amateur. Either way everyone who plays pool is following someone's instruction and example.

Isn't it better if we have a bunch of pro players here offering their perspectives and then you can just choose to try what they have to offer in whole or in part?
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
You say a lot of things that make a lot of sense but not this one. When you have someone coming on to a forum with their primary objective being to push an idea, concept, or product (no matter how great they may be), the last thing you should do is have them also become moderators. I'm really surprised you feel this way.

I know you are frustrated with some of the dissenting voices on here, but your idea would pretty much eliminate all of them. That's not the kind of forum that I'm interesting in.

You can dissent all you want -- just be polite and non-condescending about it.

CJ isn't pushing anything. He's presenting concepts, helping people on here for free--- and if someone wants to buy his CDs, they can or choose to pass.

Nobody is "pushing" anything. Unless, of course, you're suggesting pros shouldn't be allowed to sell stuff and make a living.

I think CJ has handled himself well in the face of constant insults. If someone legitimately has questions or thinks something isn't so-- he handles a conversation nicely. It's the people who login to see what he just wrote just so they can pick it apart and insult the man. That has to stop. I'd rather have pros on here than anyone else, period. If a regular Joe can't be respectful, jettison'm.
 
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