FTR, I played bumper pool too!!!:grin:
Maniac (I sucked at that also)
Rep to you anyway for bringing to bumper pool issue to the front page
Does an Online Seller Have to offer a Satisfaction Guarantee??
- Thread starter kvinbrwr
- Start date
Rep to you anyway for bringing to bumper pool issue to the front page
So, what do you do IF the cue doesn't come back in the condition you shipped it in? Nix the refund? Send less money back than the buyer paid for it? Who sets the amount of what is right and decent and right to do in a case like this?
How this is handled can be as touchy as the refund/no refund debate.
This IS a good thread. One of the better ones that's been on the Main Forum lately. I am learning MUCH about the workings of the Wanted/For Sale forum. And........there has been zero mud-slinging!!!
Maniac
Haven't tried it, yet, but I think a square b.p. table may be the only type I could fit in my house, so who knows? I would imagine it would work wonders for helping your bank shots.
I've only bought two cues on here, new Jose cues, and never even asked about a return policy, as I knew I wanted them.
Early on I said Ted sucked. Maybe that's not mud-slinging because maybe he does?
Its like 9 ball, the guys that can play just run on out.
I wonder if this could almost be separated into 2 subsets as it seems like most of the arguments are falling on these sides.
#1: New, unhit, 'collectors' cues - you are buying these not to play with them, but to invest/collect/admire/hang on the wall. Hit most likely is not an issue, however, fit and finish are all important and easily described.
#2 Used, 'players', or 'vintage' cues - you buy these to use them and hit is important, straightness becomes an issue, but fit/finish becomes a grey area as one man's 98% is another man's 80% (coming from sports cards and memorabilia background - this is key)
IMO in transactions for #1 a 100% satisfaction guarantee is warranted and probably expected as these will probably be higher end transactions and fewer subjective variables are involved. Was the cue new? Was it made by TAD or Gina or Barry? good to go.
Transactions for #2 is where the murkiness gets involved. Subjective descriptions, 'hit' and other factors complicate things. Personally, I think that if you are planning on rejecting a cue for playablilty issues, you had better find a way to play with the cue before you pay money for it. I personally just re-sell if it doesn't meet my expectations, mainly because I don't have a personal table to play on instantly long enough to evaluate in what I consider a timely manner. I also see why people don't want to offer guarantees, because it's just a hassle, and they might not be running a business, just selling an extra cue - valid points already discussed.
In closing - just an observation on customer service - I think you should always treat the customer the way you would wish to be treated in the same circumstances, however, this comes with the caveat - if I ever acted the way I have had customers treat me...I would fully expect to be told to @#$% off with a smile. :grin:
#1: New, unhit, 'collectors' cues - you are buying these not to play with them, but to invest/collect/admire/hang on the wall. Hit most likely is not an issue, however, fit and finish are all important and easily described.
#2 Used, 'players', or 'vintage' cues - you buy these to use them and hit is important, straightness becomes an issue, but fit/finish becomes a grey area as one man's 98% is another man's 80% (coming from sports cards and memorabilia background - this is key)
IMO in transactions for #1 a 100% satisfaction guarantee is warranted and probably expected as these will probably be higher end transactions and fewer subjective variables are involved. Was the cue new? Was it made by TAD or Gina or Barry? good to go.
Transactions for #2 is where the murkiness gets involved. Subjective descriptions, 'hit' and other factors complicate things. Personally, I think that if you are planning on rejecting a cue for playablilty issues, you had better find a way to play with the cue before you pay money for it. I personally just re-sell if it doesn't meet my expectations, mainly because I don't have a personal table to play on instantly long enough to evaluate in what I consider a timely manner. I also see why people don't want to offer guarantees, because it's just a hassle, and they might not be running a business, just selling an extra cue - valid points already discussed.
In closing - just an observation on customer service - I think you should always treat the customer the way you would wish to be treated in the same circumstances, however, this comes with the caveat - if I ever acted the way I have had customers treat me...I would fully expect to be told to @#$% off with a smile. :grin:
My 2 favorite responses thus far came from the 2 guys who:
a) didn't think the seller should guarantee anything
and
b) wouldn't buy anything on-line because its too risky (which it is with those sellers guaranteeing nothing and all).
Gotta love AZ.
Thanks again
Kevin
a) didn't think the seller should guarantee anything
and
b) wouldn't buy anything on-line because its too risky (which it is with those sellers guaranteeing nothing and all).
Gotta love AZ.
Thanks again
Kevin
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I'm very sorry about that. I fixed my post before I even saw your reply after reading your PM and seeing Omega Doh!
Thanks again and sorry for the plug that missed the target!
FTR, I would not ask for a three day trial on a new cue. Once the cue is chalked, it's used and should not be resold as new... perhaps use the car term and call it pre-hit. Preowned makes the buyer look like a sucker imo.
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We would have to work out and agree to a fair resolve. If they resist then they are getting the cue back. I am fair and would do my best to resolve this problem (within reason).
As a mostly buyer, I have never thought about returning a cue because I haven't bought one that wasn't described properly. Thats the only reason (until reading all this) that I thought a return was valid. If a cue is misrepresented then by all means the buyer should have a return/refund option without the cost of return shipping. Its on the seller to accurately describe the cue, however if the buyer doesn't like the hit, feel, overall look in actual light as opposed to photos, or whatever soft politically correct over-sensitive reason he/she has then tough sh!t. I'm not saying I wouldn't do a refund, it all depends on communication and time frame, but when a person buys online they inherently accept the risks of those qualities of a cue. They don't have to accept being lied to or mislead. For those that offer the guarantees, kudos to you and you will probably be rewarded with more sales. For those that don't, I understand why.
As a couple people have already said, work out the details pre-purchase.
One last example, I have bought new and used cars from businesses. They offer guarantees or warranties. I have bought and sold a couple vehicles as an individual or from an individual. No guarantees, no warranties.
I learned alot from all of this and hopefully many did. Just my opinion on things, nothing more. Steve
As a couple people have already said, work out the details pre-purchase.
One last example, I have bought new and used cars from businesses. They offer guarantees or warranties. I have bought and sold a couple vehicles as an individual or from an individual. No guarantees, no warranties.
I learned alot from all of this and hopefully many did. Just my opinion on things, nothing more. Steve
and I'm saying you shouldn't get one...once you buy it it's yours as long it's not warped or have marks in it that the sellar didn't tell you about. Hit is irrelevant.
"Hit is irrelevant" is an interesting stance to take when what we are discussing is the evaluation of pool cues, and if you truly hold that opinion, you and I will never agree regarding the use, value and nature of pool cues.
Thanks for expressing it.
Kevin
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Love it.....didn't every kid have one of these.
Oh, wait....what was being discussed.
Kev, you gotta love AZ these days....
That's the problem right there, every kid had one.
You go over to someone's house to play pool, and they have a ****ing bumper pool table.
There is nothing more disappointing than a basement with a bumper only pool table.
I even lost a game of bumper pool to a Playboy bunny at the Playboy Club in Denver back in the 60's>>:tongue:
Back to returns:
I have been in every situation discussed on this thread, and more.
The sale of used custom cues can be dynamic at times, and until you have been there it's difficult to say what your would do with a return based purely on the hit.
The time that I did refund money on a perfect cue based on the hit, I was happy to get the cue back.
I believe in relationship selling.
Nobody wants to get dragged into a flame war, and I've got more at stake than a few hundred dollars.
It's easy just to take the cue back and refund the money less shipping.
JMHO with the exception of my comments regarding bumper pool
I think returning a cue on the hit is lame, but, if you don't allow it, you cause a buyer that does want to return the cue to choose some other reason (that you do guarantee) like fit or finish and then you end up in some silly discussion about whether the points are pointy enough or some such BS. Why go through it? Take it back and sell it to a guy that does want it.
Plus, if you sell by PayPal, you are offering a de facto satisfaction guarantee anyways. Why not benefit from it by using your guarantee as a selling point? If you don't accept PayPal you are eliminating a large segment of your online buyers.
You guys that say its "wrong" or that a seller "shouldn't" offer a satisfaction guarantee:
Do you mean to tell me that if two sellers are offering the same cue for the same money in the same condition and one seller is "as is" and the other is "satisfaction guaranteed" you would really prefer to deal with the as-is seller?
Thanks
Kevin
Jack Nicklaus conceded a putt of now controversial length to Tony Jacklin in the last match of a Ryder Cup that caused the US and Britain (at the time) to tie for the entire event instead of making him putt it. Nicklaus came under fire for it. He said that too much had gone before and it was too important to hinge on one putt, plus the US retained the cup anyway and then said my favorite Jack line of all time, "if you don't see it my way, you are just not thinking right".
Plus, if you sell by PayPal, you are offering a de facto satisfaction guarantee anyways. Why not benefit from it by using your guarantee as a selling point? If you don't accept PayPal you are eliminating a large segment of your online buyers.
You guys that say its "wrong" or that a seller "shouldn't" offer a satisfaction guarantee:
Do you mean to tell me that if two sellers are offering the same cue for the same money in the same condition and one seller is "as is" and the other is "satisfaction guaranteed" you would really prefer to deal with the as-is seller?
Thanks
Kevin
Jack Nicklaus conceded a putt of now controversial length to Tony Jacklin in the last match of a Ryder Cup that caused the US and Britain (at the time) to tie for the entire event instead of making him putt it. Nicklaus came under fire for it. He said that too much had gone before and it was too important to hinge on one putt, plus the US retained the cup anyway and then said my favorite Jack line of all time, "if you don't see it my way, you are just not thinking right".
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Aye, there's the rub. It's all a question of price. In my world we refer to this as a closing condition -- if the buyer wants the right to walk away from a deal for any reason (or no reason), he had better be prepared to pay for that right.
Of course, this leads to inefficiencies. Over time, buyers and sellers will have an incentive to self-select into various bundles of rights. Sellers who have something to hide will tend to offer no returns. Buyers seeing this policy will assume there is a problem and will offer less money. On the other side, buyers who want to "test-drive" cues will gravitate to sellers with no-questions-asked return policies. Sellers will also realize this and start charging more to deal with the hassle of expected returns. In the end, all cues are either overpriced or underpriced due to imperfect information.
It's amazing anything ever gets sold!
I think there really are different discussions being confused here.
Satisfaction and/or Accurate Representation.
Having recourse due to defect or misrepresentation is far different then accepting random open ended conditions of personal satisfaction or remorse.
This is why the standard in online retail has generally always been warranty return/exchange for defects and ad errors or returns minus shipping plus restocking fees for satisfaction/remorse.
That makes the most logical sense to me and I don't see any valid reason for it to be otherwise. (But you already knew I would say that
)
Satisfaction and/or Accurate Representation.
Having recourse due to defect or misrepresentation is far different then accepting random open ended conditions of personal satisfaction or remorse.
This is why the standard in online retail has generally always been warranty return/exchange for defects and ad errors or returns minus shipping plus restocking fees for satisfaction/remorse.
That makes the most logical sense to me and I don't see any valid reason for it to be otherwise. (But you already knew I would say that
)
I think there really are different discussions being confused here.
Satisfaction and/or Accurate Representation.
Having recourse due to defect or misrepresentation is far different then accepting random open ended conditions of personal satisfaction or remorse.
This is why the standard in online retail has generally always been warranty return/exchange for defects and ad errors or returns minus shipping plus restocking fees for satisfaction/remorse.
That makes the most logical sense to me and I don't see any valid reason for it to be otherwise. (But you already knew I would say that
The discussion is confused because everybody's situation is a little different.
I am primarily talking about selling used custom cues on AZ Billiards, and the "standard online retail" policies should but don't apply.
Misrepresentation of a cue is a different story, and reputations are at stake when that occurs.
I like to work with people, but my return policy is way too generous.
My new return policy will remain the same, except the window for acceptance will be shortened to a minute and a half.
For instance if you sign for the cue at 3:13 and call me at 3:15, the cue is yours.
If it takes you 20-minutes to unwrap the cue, its not my problem, this ain't Walmart>>:smile:
I remember when you could pull something out of the trash and return it to Walmart.
Now trying to return something there is like pulling teeth. Plus NO customer service what so ever. Talk about changing your business model. They should go out of business any day now.
Now trying to return something there is like pulling teeth. Plus NO customer service what so ever. Talk about changing your business model. They should go out of business any day now.
100% i agree
100% impossible
Wood moves anytime shipping, handlers and air cargo is involved the cue can go through extreme temp changes and major abuse.
I understand this isnt part of the main subject but it still is part of selling cues online. There is a million things that can go wrong just in shipping.
Only honest people make themselfs honest, all the rules and regs are not going to insure you will never have a problem.
everyone has the right to sale anything they want, how ever they wish to sale it all long as it meets all the goverments laws, restrictions taxes and bribes, It is America:thumbup:
MMike
I think there really are different discussions being confused here.
Satisfaction and/or Accurate Representation.
Having recourse due to defect or misrepresentation is far different then accepting random open ended conditions of personal satisfaction or remorse.
This is why the standard in online retail has generally always been warranty return/exchange for defects and ad errors or returns minus shipping plus restocking fees for satisfaction/remorse.
That makes the most logical sense to me and I don't see any valid reason for it to be otherwise. (But you already knew I would say that
100% impossible
Wood moves anytime shipping, handlers and air cargo is involved the cue can go through extreme temp changes and major abuse.
I understand this isnt part of the main subject but it still is part of selling cues online. There is a million things that can go wrong just in shipping.
Only honest people make themselfs honest, all the rules and regs are not going to insure you will never have a problem.
everyone has the right to sale anything they want, how ever they wish to sale it all long as it meets all the goverments laws, restrictions taxes and bribes, It is America:thumbup:
MMike