Learning how to win...?

RRfireblade

RRfireblade

Grammer Are For Stupids
Silver Member
I play with a number of guys that have alot of potential. However it seems they don't "know how to win" if that makes sense.

There seems to be alot of common mistakes that many of them make, things like jumping up and running to the table when they think they have an out, all crazy anxious. Making comments like "A blind dog should be able to get from here", almost temping a miss. I'd bet the farm I'm getting back to the table anytime I here that. I also see alot of not wanting to lose, rather than trying to win.

Are these things difficult for the player to see?

Can you teach someone how to "win"?
 
RRfireblade said:
I play with a number of guys that have alot of potential. However it seems they don't "know how to win" if that makes sense.

There seems to be alot of common mistakes that many of them make, things like jumping up and running to the table when they think they have an out, all crazy anxious. Making comments like "A blind dog should be able to get from here", almost temping a miss. I'd bet the farm I'm getting back to the table anytime I here that. I also see alot of not wanting to lose, rather than trying to win.

Are these things difficult for the player to see?

Can you teach someone how to "win"?
Click to expand...

From the mechanics of the game most people seem to think how they shoot and the habits they have actually help them...every once in a few years i have to replace a team mate we try to correct the obvious right off.

Now not to hi-jack your thread I too have been struggling lately (i did get new glasses excuse) with being able to take games...mentally I'm thinking if there was a way to "snap" into the focus I had in younger years I would be deadly today. I believe teaching to win (mental) has to be done from the hunger side and teaching to win mechanical can be done with instruction. Many guys here can pump anyone's game...from ability standpoint.
 
RRfireblade said:
I play with a number of guys that have alot of potential. However it seems they don't "know how to win" if that makes sense.

There seems to be alot of common mistakes that many of them make, things like jumping up and running to the table when they think they have an out, all crazy anxious. Making comments like "A blind dog should be able to get from here", almost temping a miss. I'd bet the farm I'm getting back to the table anytime I here that. I also see alot of not wanting to lose, rather than trying to win.

Are these things difficult for the player to see?

Can you teach someone how to "win"?
Click to expand...

I think so. It's different things for different people though.

Being afraid to loose puts a person at a disadvantage if you ask me. A person playing without fear can do amazing things. How many times have you seen a young CJ Wiley or Keith or Earl in the zone and hear "He is playing without any fear at all!"
 
Keeping out own expectations is check and accepting what happens BEFORE it happens

Cdryden said:
I think so. It's different things for different people though.

Being afraid to loose puts a person at a disadvantage if you ask me. A person playing without fear can do amazing things. How many times have you seen a young CJ Wiley or Keith or Earl in the zone and hear "He is playing without any fear at all!"
Click to expand...

This is a tricky issue because winning like anything else is a learned behavior, and it also has the most fear attached to it. The fear of winning is sometimes as powerful as the fear of losing. There's a lot of responsibility attached to being a "winner," and it's easy to sabotage ourselves to keep from having this heavy weight of added expectations....not only from ourselves, from other people too.

Keeping our own expectations in check and accepting what ever happens BEFORE it happens is the key in my opinion. I've had issues with this because I've only played in 5 tournaments in the last 14 years, and it's difficult not to feel internal pressure knowing I probably won't get to play again if I lose. It's always been important for me to think I can play on a regular basis, and that's not possible these days.

Hopefully that will change and a new avenue will appear that's more appealing to compete in - Televised Tournaments are essential for this to happen. Playing professionally in this lull with no television is tough on the players because there's no opportunity for outside sponsorship like when we were Touring in the 90's. Our combined sponsorship back then was well over a million a year, and now I doubt if it's over 150k.....TV makes that much of a difference, and this is just one category, in the big picture it has a dramatic negative impact on the whole industry.
 
Attitude is all

I'm a big fan of this philosophy - "Hope for the best. Expect the worse. Plan for reality."

The short definitions are as follows:

"Hope for the best" = Apply this attitude to the overall effort to win the match or tournament.

"Expect the worst" = Don't take any failure as a personal insult from the billiard gods. Just as good things happen, so do bad things. That's life.

"Plan for reality" = Play individual situations based on realistic chances of success. If the shot is low percentage, play accordingly.
 
One of the things I'm trying to overcome is any negative thoughts (i.e., "what is going to happen if I miss this shot?") and replace that thought with something more positive (i.e., "what am I going to do after I make this shot?").
 
allanpsand said:
I'm a big fan of this philosophy - "Hope for the best. Expect the worse. Plan for reality."

The short definitions are as follows:

"Hope for the best" = Apply this attitude to the overall effort to win the match or tournament.

"Expect the worst" = Don't take any failure as a personal insult from the billiard gods. Just as good things happen, so do bad things. That's life.

"Plan for reality" = Play individual situations based on realistic chances of success. If the shot is low percentage, play accordingly.
Click to expand...

Well said sir! Might I add to stay positive( sometimes it can be almost impossible for me ) and try 100% every single shot. Sometimes your opponent seems to get 4 or 5 rolls to your 1 and with 2 equally matched players he's a strong favorite to win. If you can stay positive in a situation like that you may be able to hang in and keep it close, but if you get down on yourself and your luck you'll do good just to not get skunked. I love the game, but at times it sure can be very brutal. The good thing is that better times are always ahead in this up and down game of pool.
 
RRfireblade said:
I play with a number of guys that have alot of potential. However it seems they don't "know how to win" if that makes sense.

There seems to be alot of common mistakes that many of them make, things like jumping up and running to the table when they think they have an out, all crazy anxious. Making comments like "A blind dog should be able to get from here", almost temping a miss. I'd bet the farm I'm getting back to the table anytime I here that. I also see alot of not wanting to lose, rather than trying to win.

Are these things difficult for the player to see?

Can you teach someone how to "win"?
Click to expand...


I remember running round to all the bar box turny's in vegas with Rude dog John Morton, he always said "I always find a way to win" and that he did. He robbed those tourneys 5-6 nights a week, we went out almost every night for a few months. At that time I didnt get it, now I do and i'm better at winning than I was back then-92 as i recall. I sure cant win like he did, but I did play a game recently and I had lots more experience than who i played and i robbed the game, in a no-pressure league race or something i dont have a chance. So yeah IMO learning to win is something i have earned and still need to improve on, i took a HUGE loss last July, only 4 games of 1P but i folded like a cheap suit that day.
 
CJ Wiley said:
This is a tricky issue because winning like anything else is a learned behavior, and it also has the most fear attached to it. The fear of winning is sometimes as powerful as the fear of losing. There's a lot of responsibility attached to being a "winner," and it's easy to sabotage ourselves to keep from having this heavy weight of added expectations....not only from ourselves, from other people too.

Keeping our own expectations in check and accepting what ever happens BEFORE it happens is the key in my opinion. I've had issues with this because I've only played in 5 tournaments in the last 14 years, and it's difficult not to feel internal pressure knowing I probably won't get to play again if I lose. It's always been important for me to think I can play on a regular basis, and that's not possible these days.

Hopefully that will change and a new avenue will appear that's more appealing to compete in - Televised Tournaments are essential for this to happen. Playing professionally in this lull with no television is tough on the players because there's no opportunity for outside sponsorship like when we were Touring in the 90's. Our combined sponsorship back then was well over a million a year, and now I doubt if it's over 150k.....TV makes that much of a difference, and this is just one category, in the big picture it has a dramatic negative impact on the whole industry.
Click to expand...

well said, CJ is one of the best winners i ever seen in pool, i said this for years-long before i ever met him. he has the tools to get there first, more so than many top guys IMO. John Morton did as well. Some guys front run on pure talent (won't name names here), John & CJ can come from behind or front run-to me that shows me more than a come from behind player (me :frown:) or a front runner (not me:frown:).

Edit: Got to add Keith to the short list here, i read this thread after i posted, duh, yeah Keith knew how to win from day one from what i have heard on the rail over the years, seen it too.
 
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I never had a problem wanting to win very bad. Even when I was a kid played Monopoly I acted like it was real money. It took me till my mid 20's to stop being a hothead. Even in the Army when they put in the ring with a guy from Texas 10 lbs heavier than me with something like a 142-0 AAU record I lasted the three rounds with him. I pissed blood for a few days after and took a good beating but I never thought of no mas. I got even a few weeks later in a bar in Fairbanks, AK where I beat him with a pool cue and a barstool. Johnnyt
 
You learn to win by becoming a seasoned player. To become a seasoned player you must participate in tournament play, or gamble, or both. Banging balls with your buddies won't do it.
I suppose you can learn to win by participating in league play, but I am not familiar with that aspect of pool. :smile:
 
Tramp Steamer said:
I suppose you can learn to win by participating in league play, but I am not familiar with that aspect of pool. :smile:
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i'm not familiar with it either, however i don't think they learn much from league unless they figure out they have a gift and can play like Bartrum, Kirkwood. Then the league play just draws them to pool, but dont make them great players or champions, that takes action IMO. Action is the only way I know of to season a player, put a price on it, or a price thats just outside your comfort zone and grow, like weight lifting.


my 4 cents

best
Eric:)
 
Johnnyt said:
I never had a problem wanting to win very bad. Even when I was a kid played Monopoly I acted like it was real money. It took me till my mid 20's to stop being a hothead. Even in the Army when they put in the ring with a guy from Texas 10 lbs heavier than me with something like a 142-0 AAU record I lasted the three rounds with him. I pissed blood for a few days after and took a good beating but I never thought of no mas. I got even a few weeks later in a bar in Fairbanks, AK where I beat him with a pool cue and a barstool. Johnnyt
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oh stop it JT, you were just around the corner chatting up all the tail and cock blocking your friends, i heard about that....;):thumbup::thumbup::)

my very best,

respectfully

eric:)
 
Tramp Steamer said:
You learn to win by becoming a seasoned player. To become a seasoned player you must participate in tournament play, or gamble, or both. Banging balls with your buddies won't do it.
I suppose you can learn to win by participating in league play, but I am not familiar with that aspect of pool. :smile:
Click to expand...

You said that sh$t straight!
 
It definately mental.

I tell myself right up front, no matter what happens there's no way I'm losing this match.

The key for me is you have to believe it, really believe it. So how do you believe it? You have to have an experience where you fullfilled your vision.

So it's a catch 22. If you don't believe it for real you may not pull it off. If you have never pulled it off, you may never believe you can.
 
I'm losing this match.

RRfireblade said:
It definately mental.

I tell myself right up front, no matter what happens there's no way I'm losing this match.

The key for me is you have to believe it, really believe it. So how do you believe it? You have to have an experience where you fullfilled your vision.

So it's a catch 22. If you don't believe it for real you may not pull it off. If you have never pulled it off, you may never believe you can.
Click to expand...

I have some "not so good news" for you. You have ask for honest opinions because I believe you do want to learn to win HOWEVER, you are programming yourself to lose.

When you say stuff like:
"I tell myself right up front, no matter what happens there's no way I'm losing this match."

Your subconscious understands it like this:
I tell myself right up front, no matter what happens there's no way I'm losing this match.

Your subconscious is where your patterns and beliefs are stored and that's where you want to make the changes. I suggest you reframe you words to positively communicate what you DO WANT, not what you DON'T WANT.

It makes a big difference or I wouldn't bring it up....think what would happen if you said "there's no way I'm going to think about my breathing now"......what do you think you would do subconsciously?

How able "there's no way I'm going to think about the color blue, or the dog chasing the cat".....again, what would happen? .....be honest with yourself and write down what you DO WANT as far as your goals and outcomes in you competitive games/sports. Take out all the "nots," and the "don'ts", and the "no way I'm going to xxxx".....and put them all in positive terms.

Play Well - 'The Game will be your Teacher'
 
Its not all about "Winning"

Some people like or love the "game". You don't have to be competitive to enjoy billiard games!
Nuff Said.


RRfireblade said:
I play with a number of guys that have alot of potential. However it seems they don't "know how to win" if that makes sense.

There seems to be alot of common mistakes that many of them make, things like jumping up and running to the table when they think they have an out, all crazy anxious. Making comments like "A blind dog should be able to get from here", almost temping a miss. I'd bet the farm I'm getting back to the table anytime I here that. I also see alot of not wanting to lose, rather than trying to win.

Are these things difficult for the player to see?

Can you teach someone how to "win"?
Click to expand...
 
What I do by that, is to make losing not an option, it is simply not a possibility. It is a thought process that works well for me, at least for the last 30-40 or so years anyway.

;)

CJ Wiley said:
I have some "not so good news" for you. You have ask for honest opinions because I believe you do want to learn to win HOWEVER, you are programming yourself to lose.

When you say stuff like:
"I tell myself right up front, no matter what happens there's no way I'm losing this match."

Your subconscious understands it like this:
I tell myself right up front, no matter what happens there's no way I'm losing this match.

Your subconscious is where your patterns and beliefs are stored and that's where you want to make the changes. I suggest you reframe you words to positively communicate what you DO WANT, not what you DON'T WANT.

It makes a big difference or I wouldn't bring it up....think what would happen if you said "there's no way I'm going to think about my breathing now"......what do you think you would do subconsciously?

How able "there's no way I'm going to think about the color blue, or the dog chasing the cat".....again, what would happen? .....be honest with yourself and write down what you DO WANT as far as your goals and outcomes in you competitive games/sports. Take out all the "nots," and the "don'ts", and the "no way I'm going to xxxx".....and put them all in positive terms.

Play Well - 'The Game will be your Teacher'
Click to expand...
 
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