Centre ball is my preference

you can see the pocket accept the ball better. It's not your imagination,

fathomblue said:
Are you sure?

In my example, if I'm hitting with TOI.....which is a touch of inside on the left side of the CB.....as I strike it, the CB ever-so-slightly spins/floats toward the right on it's axis. And I say slightly, as the whole point of TOI is to float the CB and not truly spin it around the table. But, there's a hint of spin, let's say.

Anyway, as it's spinning to the right, when it contacts the OB, it creates the slight "gearing" effect, which causes the OB to slightly spin to the left. So, if the OB bumps the nearest rail on the way in and then caroms into the opposite pocket facing (or just hits that pocket facing directly, if you overcut it)......then that left hand spin sends it into the pocket.

All of the above is moot, of course, if you just hit it into the 1st diamond and completely miss the shot, as some of us are prone to do. :grin-square:

I believe I have it correct, but if you can get to a table and set up some balls and see what I'm talking about............well, if I'm absolutely wrong, let me know.

Anyone else care to comment on that? I've looked at it on the table several times and I'm convinced myself that it's doing that, but I human and occasionally wrong. I'm also not afraid to admit when I am.

P.S. And that original paragraph was from me, Justin Wray. CJ was just quoting me. I'm trying my hardest to learn his method and it's working for me. So, I try to help out others that are interested when I can.
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Yes, with the TOI you can see the pocket accept the ball better. It's not your imagination, I've been doing it on some of the tightest tables in history, like "Jaws" in Atlanta. Ask someone there (in Atlanta, I won't say because no one would believe me) how many racks I ran with ball in hand on that table and it's "tighter than a clam with lockjaw". :groucho:
 
CJ Wiley said:
Yes, with the TOI you can see the pocket accept the ball better. It's not your imagination, I've been doing it on some of the tightest tables in history, like "Jaws" in Atlanta. Ask someone there (in Atlanta, I won't say because no one would believe me) how many racks I ran with ball in hand on that table and it's "tighter than a clam with lockjaw". :groucho:
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I agree on TOI (that is a touch of inside english) will help but it depends, take for example OB near rail, if the CB such that OB throws to the pocket, in this case the cut will produce inside on OB and more inside will increase inside on ob and pocket ball easier. If CB is such that OB throws away from pocket, then the cut cause outside on OB, TOI on CB will cancel that outside, if too much inside it will help OB pocketed. (a bit different if CB is in stun mode)
 
Pocket billiards is all about "The Touch"

naji said:
I agree on TOI (that is a touch of inside english) will help but it depends, take for example OB near rail, if the CB such that OB throws to the pocket, in this case the cut will produce inside on OB and more inside will increase inside on ob and pocket ball easier. If CB is such that OB throws away from pocket, then the cut cause outside on OB, TOI on CB will cancel that outside, if too much inside it will help OB pocketed. (a bit different if CB is in stun mode)
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It's like trying to figure out what a peach tastes like. Sometimes it's easier to taste the peach, chew it, and describe it after you have digested it.

Again, it's not a touch of inside english, It's THE "Touch" of inside cue ball. Pocket billiards is all about "The Touch".....isn't that "peachy"? :ok:
 
I seem to keep a eye on all these TOI threads. And I have tried to figure this out by shooting as I see it explained.

I do think ,I know what is being said and I have applied it,,and found it does work. And I also think I use these type shots allot,,and have for years.

I can not do this every shot though. I find it impossible!! I end up spinning the cue to get my leaves most of the time. It took me 20+ years to get this part right and it works.

IMO TOI only works on certain shots. Or at least for me.
 
vapoolplayer said:
Are you saying a pool table pocket won't accept a shot easier than a snooker table pocket? A pocket is far from just "empty space."

Sure, center pocket is center pocket, but balls still fall when they hit parts of the pocket. Pool tables play much easier than snooker tables and thus side spin can be used more liberally in pool.

Do you disagree?
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Not disagreeing with this at all that would be silly :)
What I am saying is that on a pool table I can spin the ball more because of the large margin for error and I do because I have to, it's the nature of the game.

The point is I have the accuracy to pick a part of the pocket I want to play into and worry much less about cueing errors, I don't have to compensate with english.
My goal on most shots (unless I am trying to cheat the pocket for a reason) is to split the leather.
 
Maximizing margin of error is more about creating the best approach angles

vapoolplayer said:
Again, you seem to be a master at stating the obvious......yet too thick in the skull to think outside the box as to what people mean when they say you can "make the pocket bigger," or something to that effect.

Of course you can't increase the margin of error, but what you can do is increase your knowledge of that margin of error, and tweak things to use it to your advantage. Such as knowing which type of spin you are using and aiming to a part of the pocket in which the margin of error favors you. For example, if you are throwing a ball to the right, and using backhand english, or know your cue well enough you won't deflect too much and undercut the ball, you can aim to the left side of the pocket, in case your overcut or hit the shot a bit too slow and over spin the ball.

We do this all the time when people say "miss on the pro side," as on thin cuts we aim to overcut the ball slightly, in case one misses, they have a smaller chance to sell out. Obviously the margin of error for the shot or the pocket is the same, but one can be smart about it and use it to their advantage.

When CJ, or anyone else makes statements like this.........use your brain a little and realize they aren't being as literal as you are taking them.
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So can you increase the margin of error in tennis by using topspin? How about golf, can you increase the margin of error by hitting a draw or a fade?

If I can aim at one side of the pocket and over cut it every time it's the same thing. What gets people confused is the difference between spin and deflection. You can do it with both in pool, however, since it's played on a table with cloth the ball will "veer" (don't make me say squirt) BEFORE it curves from the spin. So you have two calculations instead of one like in the other games.

So, that's why I JUST use deflection to get the same results. It's so easy and in my new TOI BANKING video it's obvious. When banking you see that it's all about creating angles and "pocket zones," and with regular shots players get so "contact point" conscious they don't "real eyes" they are creating angles.....that's right, just like banks.

Maximizing margin of error is more about creating the best approach angles, maybe that will be a better visual example. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
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Pathetic Shark said:
Spotter's Badge for Naji. Sorry, I meant to say screw and side (English), not screw and bottom (which are the same thing). The point being, if hit on the right side, the CB will deflect left, swerve right and throw the OB left, which is rather difficult to read, obviously, especially over long distance shots. IMO it is better to forget trying to understand the science and just play it by feel until it sticks in the subconscious.

The ability to learn shots is important - and not as easy as just remembering them. Eliminating the need for conscious thought is helpful.
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The human mind & the connection to the human body are amazing. It is not that difficult at all to shoot with english even given the actual physics complexities of it, if one can simply get one's brain out of the way & allow one's mind to 'learn' how the tell one's body to do it. If one wants to try to calculate it all out & then try to execute it, one will most probably give up on it as it is not a 'mechanical' method. It is a feel adaptation of the components involved.

Naturally all of the above is just MHO.
 
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CJ Wiley said:
I agree - we played on a table tonight where you can't make the ball in a certain corner pocket and draw it to the other end of the table when the OB is close to a rail. The facings, the shelf, the angle of the opening to the back are determining factors.....even the material of the shims make a difference.
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Hi CJ,

I agree. I would rather play on tighter pockets than certain 'wider' pockets with the very bouncy shims.

How's the banking vid going?

Best Regards,
 
Pathetic Shark said:


In the red corner, Mosconi. Genuine legend, known worldwide. Advocates using centre ball and a spring-like stroke, sharp and deliberate, with strong follow-through.

In the Blue corner, Wiley. Champion, gambler, businessman, virtually unknown outside the US. Advocates hitting the CB on one side, 'pinning' and pivoting.

In a Dark corner, amongst the shadows: those of us that know, aka snooker players.

Who to believe? Gentlemen, choose you poison carefully.
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I was watching a video of Danny DiLiberto giving a lesson and he said "English is for suckers". Not saying a player should never use English but some people overuse it.
 
I posted in the earlier thread that I didn't see the relevance of the analogies to other sports. Played many of them, was/am a decent athlete. May be changing my thoughts a bit. I do see the comparisons to a kick serve in tennis or a controlled fade in golf....not ready to go down the TOI road yet, but it's intriguing.
 
that's all well and good...

h4xs4w said:
I use center on most shots. Not exact center, but to be exact, along the center, vertical axis. In my short, few years of experience, rarely do I encounter a set up (getting from one shot to the next) that isn't possible with center ball. It just seems to be an issue of how much top/bottom and combination of speed that I need to get down. I've run out more than handful of racks using just a combination of speed and center, and would have 2 handfuls under my belt if I had a better feel for my speed control.

Although in contrast, there are certain position plays that ARE easier using side spin, if you have the feel for 'em. They always say to do as little as possible with the cue ball. And sometimes, as contradictory as it may seem, using english is the simplest way. But not often, from where I've been.
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I would imagine that if I switched to mostly center ball with only slight deviation, I would only lose about 3-5% of the shots possible.

However, once you become confident using any spin on any shot it opens up the world to you...

ask any one pocket player how being able to consistently use transfered english changes the game of one hole...

Just in this last mezz event I had a break n run that would've been impossible without having a confident ability to use extreme side spin because I had an eight ball in front of the five that made getting position on the five in the corner extremely difficult.

I ended up with only half a ball visible on the five, so I had to use inside follow to change the rebound angle and get the cueball out of the way to call the cross bank back in the corner on the other side of the table and to come around three rails for the six in the opposite corner also down table.

Unless you are regularly shooting those shots, you won't be able to consistently make them when the necessity arises. So staying close to center may give you some instant gratification in regards to improving consistency, but it's bad for your ultimate game in the long run.

Jaden
 
Yeah...

alstl said:
I was watching a video of Danny DiLiberto giving a lesson and he said "English is for suckers". Not saying a player should never use English but some people overuse it.
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Tell that to Efren...

Jaden
 
Jaden said:
I would imagine that if I switched to mostly center ball with only slight deviation, I would only lose about 3-5% of the shots possible.

However, once you become confident using any spin on any shot it opens up the world to you...

ask any one pocket player how being able to consistently use transfered english changes the game of one hole...

Just in this last mezz event I had a break n run that would've been impossible without having a confident ability to use extreme side spin because I had an eight ball in front of the five that made getting position on the five in the corner extremely difficult.

I ended up with only half a ball visible on the five, so I had to use inside follow to change the rebound angle and get the cueball out of the way to call the cross bank back in the corner on the other side of the table and to come around three rails for the six in the opposite corner also down table.

Unless you are regularly shooting those shots, you won't be able to consistently make them when the necessity arises. So staying close to center may give you some instant gratification in regards to improving consistency, but it's bad for your ultimate game in the long run.

Jaden
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That's where practice comes into play. Of course, if one never practices, and only plays, then one will get rusty on using english. Same as he will get rusty on many other types of shots such as kicks and banks, ect.
 
Center ball cueing is a powerful tool when you choose from the available variations to accomplish both pocketing and shape goals.

I'm speaking of vertical axis options...and stroke options.

....Natural rolling ball, force follow, stun, stun through, elevated delayed follow, drag follow, jump shots, stun draw, draw, elevated delayed draw, nip draw.....yada yada yada... there are a lot of non english shot choices. And then you have speed choices of these selections that either make the shot possible, or nearly impossible. That's plenty to work on.

Add english, (side spin of varying degrees) and things get more interesting:
More interesting and difficult, but the rewards can be game changers. Shots than don't go, might now go.

Imho, it is a progression that starts with learning shots and shape with a natural rolling cb...and then you experiment and practice other methods.


That's one of the beautiful things about our game(s) ...there's always something else to learn and discover and practice..:p


...Someone told me...'shooting with extreme(inside)english is like having a rattlesnake for a girlfriend...it can be very satisfying, but you will also get bit sometimes.':eek::thumbup:
 
Jaden said:
I would imagine that if I switched to mostly center ball with only slight deviation, I would only lose about 3-5% of the shots possible.

However, once you become confident using any spin on any shot it opens up the world to you...

ask any one pocket player how being able to consistently use transfered english changes the game of one hole...

Just in this last mezz event I had a break n run that would've been impossible without having a confident ability to use extreme side spin because I had an eight ball in front of the five that made getting position on the five in the corner extremely difficult.

I ended up with only half a ball visible on the five, so I had to use inside follow to change the rebound angle and get the cueball out of the way to call the cross bank back in the corner on the other side of the table and to come around three rails for the six in the opposite corner also down table.

Unless you are regularly shooting those shots, you won't be able to consistently make them when the necessity arises. So staying close to center may give you some instant gratification in regards to improving consistency, but it's bad for your ultimate game in the long run.

Jaden
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Then why do most pros stay close to center? Orcollo, Shane, Archer, Alex and the list goes on. Earl and Efren are two exceptions really.
 
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