Free Streaming Bad for Pool?

nb92

nb92

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
... is FREE live streaming bad for pool or just bad of the providers of PPV Events?

I don’t think either is true... Free streaming provides a platform for both sponsor’s and participants to get their product or name in front of fans. PPV events tend to add value by being produced at a higher quality (visually, commentators, setting, etc) and worth a few dollars because of these facts.

There might be an opportunity for PPV providers to sponsor Free Streamers and advertise their PPV events on the Free Stream ... in much the same way MMA, Boxing, even Wrestling always lets the fans know about upcoming PPV matches during normal TV coverage.

As a fan of pool, I would view and react negatively to any attempt to limit Free Streaming through mandatory contractual relationships between PPV providers and players. Limiting viewing access, in an attempt to create a commercial market, seems to me very short sighted and awfully 20th century. In my view any attempt at creating a monopoly through the linking of - the ability to play in tournaments with a mandatory exclusive relationship with a PPV provider would have a significant negative effect.

If someone were to try and introduce such a system I think it would say more about the ego of that person then their love of the sport. Ultimately diversity and a thousand different entrepreneurs each working independently tend to produce a more innovative product then a stove piped dictatorial environment.

IMHO.... like to hear yours....
 
I think it certainly devalues the PPV matches but not entirely. I look at it like these free streams are like Sunday afternoon football... sometimes Sunday night football, but TAR matches are like Monday night football or a playoff game. They just seem to hold more weight. The players seem to try harder. It's a bigger stage.
 
cleary said:
I think it certainly devalues the PPV matches but not entirely. I look at it like these free streams are like Sunday afternoon football... sometimes Sunday night football, but TAR matches are like Monday night football or a playoff game. They just seem to hold more weight. The players seem to try harder. It's a bigger stage.
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Agree ... the PPV events are just that EVENTS... the free streams tend to be a "window" into what is happening in the pool world allowing fans to be there ... even if they are unable to attend. Usually whatever is being covered was going to take place regardless of the stream going out or not.. but the PPV events are staged for the purpose of the PPV.

I know some PPV are tournaments but these tend to be tournaments of significance and the coverage is at a high-level, which is the value added ...
 
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As someone who watches a lot of the free streams and has bought his share of TAR matches I'll say this the free streams are NICE, but there is no comparison to the quality that TAR provides in my opinion. The TAR stream is always smooth as glass, the commentators add a lot to the match (and talk about the match and not to the chat), the matchups on the table are phenomenal, the camera work is superior, and the sound is always good. I'm not hating on other free streams either. I enjoy them, but you do get what you pay for IMO.
 
StraightPoolIU said:
As someone who watches a lot of the free streams and has bought his share of TAR matches I'll say this the free streams are NICE, but there is no comparison to the quality that TAR provides in my opinion. The TAR stream is always smooth as glass, the commentators add a lot to the match (and talk about the match and not to the chat), the matchups on the table are phenomenal, the camera work is superior, and the sound is always good. I'm not hating on other free streams either. I enjoy them, but you do get what you pay for IMO.
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I agree... both TAR and Accu-stats add value and are well worth the price. The others are not providing the same service so comparisons are more an apples to oranges sort of thing... I do believe both add value to the pool world in their own way...
 
The free streaming of top players at the rate that has been happening so far this year will do one of two things. Put people like TAR and Accu-Stats out of business or drive the money we can pay down to the point that players will not waste their time even trying.

When Accu-Stats is streaming a PPV at a tournament and the exact same players are being streamed for free on one or more streams from the same event then it will eventually kill the market. The margins are so thin as it is that it doesnt take much to make it not even worth getting your gear out.

So either the high production value streamers like TAR and Accu-Stats will have to find some way to cut costs, grow the audience or gain sponsors to survive or just go away and be replaced by the free streamers. When that happens event promoters will start realizing that they are providing the content for these free streamers and start to charge them for it. Thus starting a whole new cycle of struggle.

Something is worth what someone will pay for it. Be that a sponsor, advertiser or spectator. There is a reason you dont see UFC fighters in Tuff Man contests or New York Yankees playing beer league softball. I don't have the answers but I can see the writing on the wall and its not looking good.
 
Rant

wasn't hard to figure which direction cleary would go but lets look at this some more.

Insidepool does not charge for streams, so are you saying that they put out a bad product? Lenny also does not charge for streams, how is his service. TVMike, and PoolAction does charge for streams, are they to be held at the same level that you are making TAR out to be. Pat Flemming does both free and PPV so what would you say about Pat.

FREE stream is an absolute must in todays world, without it and the people who bring that stream to us waiting for a TAR match would be like the super bowl (speaking about football), sunday football happens to be a big thing sir to the countless fans who follow the sport, but you just try taking that away from them and only leaving monday night football and see how that goes.

as is the case in so many other threads the problem i see here is that it is not totally clear and more often than not lead comments off in one direction. FREE stream from uncle bob's tavern via the 1 megapixel camera that he has running through his 64k modem, that is the problem.

the problem is (or the debate) not if this is better and that is not, it's night and day and even then there is still a "top of the box" player, cause TAR "CAN NOT" put on a show like Pat, do we now start saying is small room, tripod camera, stationary camera PPV are no good cause ACCU-STATS has booms and instant reply, come on people.

oh and BTW OP, you don't see TAR showing up at your local event or the BEF going HEY! Let's get pool out to the public and show off some of these kids and stuff like that.

personally I would like to thank Insidepool, Accu-Stats and FastLenny for all that they do "FOR POOL" and would like to also thank TAR for putting out a great "Product" for the public. And to the up and coming, don't just stream us crap from the corner of your room with that crap, get a better camera and continue giving us some Sunday Football.
 
JCIN said:
The free streaming of top players at the rate that has been happening so far this year will do one of two things. Put people like TAR and Accu-Stats out of business or drive the money we can pay down to the point that players will not waste their time even trying.

When Accu-Stats is streaming a PPV at a tournament and the exact same players are being streamed for free on one or more streams from the same event then it will eventually kill the market. The margins are so thin as it is that it doesnt take much to make it not even worth getting your gear out.

So either the high production value streamers like TAR and Accu-Stats will have to find some way to cut costs, grow the audience or gain sponsors to survive or just go away and be replaced by the free streamers. When that happens event promoters will start realizing that they are providing the content for these free streamers and start to charge them for it. Thus starting a whole new cycle of struggle.

Something is worth what someone will pay for it. Be that a sponsor, advertiser or spectator. There is a reason you dont see UFC fighters in Tuff Man contests or New York Yankees playing beer league softball. I don't have the answers but I can see the writing on the wall and its not looking good.
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I really hear you... what Accu-Stats has been doing for years allowing fans the chance to BE THERE .. when they could not... (I believe Jay was first with Pat running with the ball) really has ended up being the historical record of pool in the USA for the last 30 years. The vale added of just getting to see these great players was incredible, I have VHS Tapes with no commentators just the match (Sigel vs Rempe .. with Sigel going 150 and out!).. then the value added of GREAT commentary... and the opportunity to hear what great players were actually thinking .....

today the internet, which is a "destructive" technology to many industries, gives real time access to many of these events... I am sure when TAR first started covering aspects of tournaments (gambling) that had not been covered previously, you might have been seen as a real threat to Accu-Stats.... now the question becomes what is the value added to attract a PPV audience?

I believe both TAR and Accu-Stats have made moves that are very positive and the content continues to go up. TAR 33 and 34 are great examples as are the You Make it Happen events with accu-stats. These are EVENTS and well worth the price.

The professional sports leagues own the sport and can control the players. Boxing and mixed martial arts are splintered with different commercial interests competing for talent and offering different deals to the talent. Ultimately though these commercial interests are creating a product for sale so the talent has value.

I agree that the answer is unclear but a top down, my way or the highway solutions tends to cause me a great deal of pause. Do we want someone to OWN pro pool in America, with the ability to dictate where and when someone is to perform? don't know?!
 
7forlife said:
oh and BTW OP, you don't see TAR showing up at your local event or the BEF going HEY! Let's get pool out to the public and show off some of these kids and stuff like that.
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7forlife,

as stated in the OP -- I think free streams are good... I was interested in what others think... because I can imagine a scenario were strong arm tactics are used to make pros unavailable for being on free streams.... Lets do a thought experiment... (I am just MAKING SH*T UP... but lets do it anyway)

Diamond Billiards currently has DCC and Tunica... lets say they added one more event.. I don’t know... Atlantic City.. so... Diamond Billiards Pro Tour (DBPT) is DCC, Tunica and AC...

THEN

Diamond forms a partnership with CSI ( or does a purchase out right.. either way) this expands the DBPT to the west cost (Swanee, and all CSI US OPENs (10-ball, 1pckt, 8-ball)..

THEN the DBPT signs agreements with or take a financial interest in, TAR and Accu-Stats. With the following press release to pro-players, IF you want to play in ANY DBPT Event (which would be nearly every big event in the USA) you are not allowed to be on any stream, at anytime, anywhere in the USA that is NOT a TAR or Accu-stat production.

and bang... there go the free streams with pros on them....

So yes I thing POV, Insidepool, BigTruck, etc (EVERYONE) are GREAT -- and that is why I asked the question in this thread, because it is not hard to imagine someone thinking they are not good for pool and trying to do something about it...
 
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7forlife said:
wasn't hard to figure which direction cleary would go but lets look at this some more.

Insidepool does not charge for streams, so are you saying that they put out a bad product? Lenny also does not charge for streams, how is his service. TVMike, and PoolAction does charge for streams, are they to be held at the same level that you are making TAR out to be. Pat Flemming does both free and PPV so what would you say about Pat.

FREE stream is an absolute must in todays world, without it and the people who bring that stream to us waiting for a TAR match would be like the super bowl (speaking about football), sunday football happens to be a big thing sir to the countless fans who follow the sport, but you just try taking that away from them and only leaving monday night football and see how that goes.

as is the case in so many other threads the problem i see here is that it is not totally clear and more often than not lead comments off in one direction. FREE stream from uncle bob's tavern via the 1 megapixel camera that he has running through his 64k modem, that is the problem.

the problem is (or the debate) not if this is better and that is not, it's night and day and even then there is still a "top of the box" player, cause TAR "CAN NOT" put on a show like Pat, do we now start saying is small room, tripod camera, stationary camera PPV are no good cause ACCU-STATS has booms and instant reply, come on people.

oh and BTW OP, you don't see TAR showing up at your local event or the BEF going HEY! Let's get pool out to the public and show off some of these kids and stuff like that.

personally I would like to thank Insidepool, Accu-Stats and FastLenny for all that they do "FOR POOL" and would like to also thank TAR for putting out a great "Product" for the public. And to the up and coming, don't just stream us crap from the corner of your room with that crap, get a better camera and continue giving us some Sunday Football.
Click to expand...

Actually TAR is streaming the Junior Nationals for free this July.

As to the rest of your post I dont understand what you are trying to say.
 
StraightPoolIU said:
As someone who watches a lot of the free streams and has bought his share of TAR matches I'll say this the free streams are NICE, but there is no comparison to the quality that TAR provides in my opinion. The TAR stream is always smooth as glass, the commentators add a lot to the match (and talk about the match and not to the chat), the matchups on the table are phenomenal, the camera work is superior, and the sound is always good. I'm not hating on other free streams either. I enjoy them, but you do get what you pay for IMO.
Click to expand...

Well spoken...and I'd have to agree after the last couple of free streams that have been aired...
Clint
 
JCIN said:
Actually TAR is streaming the Junior Nationals for free this July.

As to the rest of your post I dont understand what you are trying to say.
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It's actually funny that the guy specifically said something about the BEF event when you guys will be there, bad timing on his part hehe.

So... have you thought about my idea of having some of the Jr players do some commentary with you guys?
 
nb92 said:
As a fan of pool, I would view and react negatively to any attempt to limit Free Streaming through mandatory contractual relationships between PPV providers and players. Limiting viewing access, in an attempt to create a commercial market, seems to me very short sighted and awfully 20th century. In my view any attempt at creating a monopoly through the linking of - the ability to play in tournaments with a mandatory exclusive relationship with a PPV provider would have a significant negative effect.

.
Click to expand...

Is this being seriously considered?

Any player (but especially Top Ten players) would be insane to sign such an agreement. They'd be dragged into any problems the PPV provider encounters. Some of the players make good money, but not enough to hire a law firm to litigate his way out of the PPV's bankruptcy, reduced coverage, and so on.

It would be like Tiger Woods signing an agreement with CBS that he'll only play in CBS-network events. Too much risk.
 
nb92 said:
7forlife,

as stated in the OP -- I think free streams are good... I was interested in what others think... because I can imagine a scenario were strong arm tactics are used to make pros unavailable for being on free streams.... Lets do a thought experiment... (I am just MAKING SH*T UP... but lets do it anyway)

Diamond Billiards currently has DCC and Tunica... lets say they added one more event.. I don’t know... Atlantic City.. so... Diamond Billiards Pro Tour (DBPT) is DCC, Tunica and AC...

THEN

Diamond forms a partnership with CSI ( or does a purchase out right.. either way) this expands the DBPT to the west cost (Swanee, and all CSI US OPENs (10-ball, 1pckt, 8-ball)..

THEN the DBPT signs agreements with or take a financial interest in, TAR and Accu-Stats. With the following press release to pro-players, IF you want to play in ANY DBPT Event (which would be nearly every big event in the USA) you are not allowed to be on any stream, at anytime, anywhere in the USA that is NOT a TAR or Accu-stat production.

and bang... there go the free streams with pros on them....

So yes I thing POV, Insidepool, BigTruck, etc (EVERYONE) are GREAT -- and that is why I asked the question in this thread, because it is not hard to imagine someone thinking they are not good for pool and trying to do something about it...
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I have been on both sides of the restricting pros thing. The WPBA had a restriction in place for their players on streams. I disagreed with it because they were not actually providing events for the players to play in while still wanting to restrict them.

What I dont have a problem with is if someone comes along and says "I am starting the American Pool Tour. I will guarantee twelve $25K added events a year for three years. If you play on this tour you will sign a contract stating that you will only play on live streaming media during APT events while the season is underway." If someone does that I am out of business but you know what it would mean there is a legit pool tour and I can find a way to do what I have to do to survive or go do something else. Actually anyone who would come into pool with big money and didnt do that I would consider a fool. The flip side is the money has to really be there or the players will revolt.

The above situation is the only way pro pool will change from the scattered clusterfvck it is today. The good news for people who dont want to lose the random free streams is that I dont see it coming about anytime soon.

We are in a free market and I believe that the market will dictate what survives. I will bet that in two years the landscape is completely different than what it is now. One way or another.

I dont have a problem with free streamers for the most part. I think they provide a valuable service. What is changing is that there are so few pro events anymore all the top guys are playing these $65 entry events or playing "challenge matches" for short money and the free streamers are there putting this stuff out.

Now there is the argument that the higher production quality streams should be able to stand up to the single camera on a tripod in a pool room. The thing is the margins are so razor thin that if just 10% of the PPV audience decides "I'm not gonna pay $15 to watch Busty play this weekend because I saw him free on Tuesday." then thats that.

I dont want it to seem like I'm b!tching or saying free streamers should quit. I am a firm believer in a free market and will do my best to fight to survive in it. This is just a fascinating time in our industry and I enjoy looking at it from all angles and potential outcomes.
 
I dunno, I'll take free streams when I can get them, but I don't think they affect my decision to buy a tar or accustats PPV.

Streams are relatively uncommon, I've never been torn between two streams.
If I had to decide between a free and a paid one and the paid one was in the $50 range,
I might have to actually think about it. But if the money's less than that,
then I'll simply watch whichever stream features the content I prefer.
So far it's never come up.

And I never have gotten burnt out on streams either, like "I'd buy the tar match but I already
watched six hours of free footage from I.P." ...again it's just not that common,
so it doesn't come up.
 
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bdorman said:
Is this being seriously considered?

Any player (but especially Top Ten players) would be insane to sign such an agreement. They'd be dragged into any problems the PPV provider encounters. Some of the players make good money, but not enough to hire a law firm to litigate his way out of the PPV's bankruptcy, reduced coverage, and so on.

It would be like Tiger Woods signing an agreement with CBS that he'll only play in CBS-network events. Too much risk.
Click to expand...

Only way something like what he is talking about would work is something like Bonus Ball or the IPT that had enough money and a structure that a player knew he was going to be doing that for a living and not hopscotching around the country trying to snap off $3000 added events.

If Bonus Ball is serious about generating money on their streams and they are sinking two million dollars into a season I have no idea why on earth they would let their players appear on someone else's streams. I sure as hell wouldn't. I hope they dont restrict them as it makes my life easier but I would understand if they did.
 
I support all streamers but also see the problems involved with the Free/PPV 'conflict'. While I would love to see both markets thrive and survive I am enough of a realist to know this will not happen.

This is a consumer-driven market. Creative Destruction will run its course and determine the survivors. Some really fine people are going to go down with their dreams. My personal opinion is that the tenacity and the seemingly endless influx of free streamers will harm the PPV's and then when they own the market they will not be able to support their own product and they will go away as well.

The possible savior is the smart TV. If streamers can get a big enough audience then all these problems could go away. But the sand keeps running through the glass and burning cash reserves.
 
Free Streams

Free Steams is one business model.


If you like free streams, then pony up some scratch and support the advertisers. I can not fault someone who travels long distances for wanting a small fee for to cover their time, gasonline cost, vehicle costs and food/lodging costs.

I supported one well known streamer when he put his hand out asking for a little "help" - if one could afford to pitch in a few bucks. I like to think that seed money was more important to developing the steam than paying when free streams was optional.


One thing is clear: sucessful sports such as golf, basketball, football,and the national spelling bee figured out how those involved could make some reasonable money for a decent days work.


Nice topic to raise.
 
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