Was This right? 2013 Amway Cup

Should that rack counted?? (Rack 8) 2013 Amway Cup

  • Jenn B. got hosed by the referee

    Votes: 9 45.0%

  • Jenn B. got hosed by the TD

    Votes: 1 5.0%

  • Jenn B. got hosed by the head referee

    Votes: 2 10.0%

  • What bad break call?

    Votes: 1 5.0%

  • The officials were right, too much time had passed.

    Votes: 5 25.0%

  • Jenn B. Handled this right by checking her break for an illegal break call on the 9th rack break.

    Votes: 1 5.0%

  • all this probably would not have happened if the referee didn't call her for the "bubby-foul"

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • Total voters
    20
  • Poll closed .
Dunnn51

Dunnn51

Drones? What Drones??
Silver Member
ok, So i'm cruisin' over the matches from the Amway cup , and run across the Baretta/Kim match. (I believe it is Ga Young Kim)

I think Jen gets some referee bias here, but let me hear what everyone else thinks.

"G" is only a sexist pun if you see it that way. :grin-square:

Here's the link you will need to see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPli6N-0elo

Break issue is at 52:00 when only the 8-ball goes into the kitchen.

"bubby-foul" is on rack prior at 49:00
 
Foul 49min - this is a foul full stop.

Foul break 52min - Jb should be calling AND QUESTIONING this all day long. Unfortunately in pool a player can't always rely on the referee...

imo JB showed inexperience in both situations- noones perfect

JB - Class player all the same... :thumbup::thumbup:
 
You can't even see the 6 ball move in the close up replay but it must have happened
because Jennifer jumped up like she brushed it and immediately looked to the ref,
who then called it. I think she basically called it on herself and the ref just confirmed.

As for the break... is the rule X balls have to pass the headstring?
It's a stupid rule, always was. First it's dumb because requiring a minimum speed is just
an attempt to make the break entertaining to fans, but honestly who gets excited
anymore about break speed? Unless it's like 30 mph I don't even notice.

Worse, sometimes even a pretty firm break won't result in balls going past the head string,
sometimes they zigzag back and forth more than up'n'down the table. That break was hard
enough to make the cue ball hop up in the air a few inches after contact.
It's an absolutely fine break and penalizing it would be stupid.
Maybe she technically broke the rule but her break was well within the 'spirit of the law'.
 
The Ref should have seen right away that it was an illegal break. She did catch a bad break there and you could see it flustered her.
 
this is how a player should deal with suspected foul play.
At the time and in the moment - anything else is history.
It's the same in all sports / games

Below link: Probably the most controversial foul in recent times and the players and referees dealt with correctly.

shot come at exactly 2 mins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fjZwwgRp44

The camera never lies...
 
There was some agony in the commentator's booth. Simon Chang, one of the commentators and somehow affiliated with the Taiwanese pool association, drew the TD's attention to the illegal break (I don't believe Jen B realized a foul was made at the time) after reviewing the replays on his own initiative. The decision on the floor after conferring with the TD/head referee was that as per the player's meeting, fouls that are not called at the time, AND that goes unchallenged by the opposing player, cannot be called retroactively.

My personal feeling is that was an embarrassment and the foul should be called with an apology to the Taiwanese player.

Simon (commentator) noted a few minutes later that this incident would come into official review after the match. I don't think they were purposefully hosing Jen B, but it was the wrong call imo and strongly gives the impression that they are showing favoritism to the home player.

-roger
 
FWIW the top two comments on that youtube video are both Taiwanese fans protesting the decision to not call the foul on Tsai.

And to the OP, the player Jen B faced is Tsai Pei Tseng, not GYK.

-roger
 
This will be a lesson learned for Jen. She should have questioned it when the ref failed to do his job. She got hosed, and somewhat by her own hand.
 
I think there's some confusion here about what actually happened.
Some comments almost seem to imply that the ref noticed the illegal break but simply made a decision not to call it??

What seems more likely to me is that the ref just missed it, probably because the break was a perfectly normal break, with normal speed, and a ball dropped.

Of course the foul can't be called as soon as she strokes the 1 ball. If a ref misses a foul, and a player misses a foul, then you treat it as if it didn't happen. Apology to the taiwanese player? What for? She benefited from the blown call.

The whole thing is dumb, if they want to prevent soft breaking then there are plenty of fixes that work better than "balls past the head string" rules.
 
I don't like the set up. The players should be seated closer and elevated so they can clearly see what is going on.
 
Where I see a problem

Where I see a problem is after Jen B. makes her illegal break, the referee blatantly coaches. When Tsai Pei Tseng goes to the table she is going to pick up the cue ball and the referee stops her saying, "No no no". His job is to call fouls, not to direct the players to keep them from fouling. That is coaching!:angry:
 
gregcantrall said:
Where I see a problem is after Jen B. makes her illegal break, the referee blatantly coaches. When Tsai Pei Tseng goes to the table she is going to pick up the cue ball and the referee stops her saying, "No no no". His job is to call fouls, not to direct the players to keep them from fouling. That is coaching!:angry:
Click to expand...

What is this, the APA? Coaching fouls? :)

Do you know what time this was in the match? I can't find it.
Sounds like Tsai assumed a foul was a foul, the ref disagreed so the ref overruled her attempt to "play ref".

Which is fine, picking up the cue ball is the ref's job and I guess the ref told her so.
The ref doesn't need to sit back and let her screw up and give Jen a free ball in hand.
That would be 2 failures on the part of the ref:
She failed to clearly call a foul even though she definitely saw it,
then she penalized a player for playing by the rules and collecting the BIH she deserved.
 
Wrong name

My apologies for not naming Jenn B.'s opponent accurately. I am ever so slowly learning all the good female players in Asia.
My apologies to Ga Young Kim for wrong ID :o

That is a good catch about the referee "coaching" Tsai Pei Tseng. I wondered if anyone was going to see that.

I will save my opinion for after the closing of the poll (5 days)
 
CreeDo said:
What is this, the APA? Coaching fouls? :)

Do you know what time this was in the match? I can't find it.
snip....
Click to expand...
At 1:02:02 he calls illegal break at 1:02:20 she is reaching toward the table with her left hand and the ref says, "NO NO NO". I can not hear her ask anything of him.

More snipage....
The ref doesn't need to sit back and let her screw up and give Jen a free ball in hand.
Click to expand...

What if she was setting up to shoot the wrong ball? Would it be ok for him to say, "NO NO NO"?
 
CreeDo said:
Apology to the taiwanese player? What for? She benefited from the blown call.
Click to expand...

I suggested that the foul should have been called after the rack is over, and the apology to Tsai would be for delaying the call.

Earlier in the tournament GYK made a 9 ball on the break and after review, the game was struck from her score and she was made to re-break the rack, so the precedent was there for calling the foul after delay/review.

-roger
 
gregcantrall said:
What if she was setting up to shoot the wrong ball? Would it be ok for him to say, "NO NO NO"?
Click to expand...

Obviously not, and that is exactly what happened. The commentator was flipping out in the booth saying the ref should not have said anything to Tsai and called the foul if she took BIH. He also used the example of shooting the wrong ball, which is obviously out of bounds for the ref to point out.

-roger
 
Bumping this thread so that ppl can respond before it closes tomorrow. I would really like to know what ppl think about this.

Sometimes good solutions come from independent analysis.

Thanks.
 
buddha162 said:
... The decision on the floor after conferring with the TD/head referee was that as per the player's meeting, fouls that are not called at the time, AND that goes unchallenged by the opposing player, cannot be called retroactively. ...
Click to expand...
This is the standard rule. A foul must be called before the next shot is taken or no foul occurred.

As for: "The ref doesn't need to sit back and let her screw up and give Jen a free ball in hand," yes, he does. A referee must never warn a player that the player is about to foul. However, in the particular case of ball in hand, the referee should always hand the cue ball to the player or alternatively, place the cue ball frozen to the head rail and say, "ball in hand".

An example from a different game: at 14.1 a player is about to take an intentional foul by just tapping the cue ball against the rack. He starts to do that with the ferrule. The referee must not warn the player that he is about to commit an unsportsmanlike conduct foul.

The rules are here: http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_rules_of_play and most players have never read them. Sad to say, most pro players have never read them. If you read them you may get a leg up on your opponents.
 
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