Bonus Ball starts May 30th

SterlingArcher

Dangerrrrr Zone
Silver Member
It's an interesting debate, and hopefully someone will present a solution that could be later implemented for future seasons.

Solution: BB either takes off and other promotions work around your schedule, or BB fails and things return to where they are currently.

That's pretty much how things are going to go more than likely.
 

meximan2469

WPBL
Silver Member
The players are not paid a weekly salary per say.... They are paid weekly "X" amount of dollars per match they have played that week (22 matches per season) most times when a team is playing during a week they are playing more than one match. (This was scheduled to help the players by easing traveling expenses).

Furthermore the playoff winning are prorated per match played (Ex. Winning team receives $120,000 divide that by the 3 players = $40,000 now divide that per match (22) and you get $1818.... So technically for every match a player misses that might be a total much higher than $1000.)

Also the WPBL has 6 x $5000 Bonuses awarded at the end of the season for accumulated stats totals, which missing matches will definitely hinder chances for.
 

jpparmentier

AZB Artist
Silver Member
Team AzB
No one said we're "at ease".

The WPBL needs to generate money to become sustainable, a lot of it. That's a tough task in itself, and some on here claim its outright impossible.

Now rather than do what's in the best interest of the company and try to earn that income to pay it's players and become sustainable, you're suggesting that the business risk crippling itself in order to offer courtesy to promoters?

I'm sorry, but it simply doesn't make sense to me.

I love the idea of a perfect world where there are perfect solutions to every problem, but unfortunately the world doesn't work that way. At the end of the day, we're scheduling our matches so that players can play in as many events as possible, yet maintaining a schedule that presents the WPBL with the best chance of success.

It's an interesting debate, and hopefully someone will present a solution that could be later implemented for future seasons.

It's very difficult to present solutions when we don't have all the keys. I understand your position a little bit better as you explain it further and further. The global business plan could incorporate downtimes in the future and work around a few tournaments that require the top international players to attend in order to pack the stands and to get more second-grade players in the draws.

I hope you don't lose too many players along the season as some will have to make choices, and that some promoters won't have to lower the added money, the fields or even cancel some events.


I'm very sorry to bring this up but when Trudeau promised everybody a "minimum income of $100k" for the 2007 season, we all know what happened next; You can't expect people like us not to have this in the back of our minds.


I hope this all works out and nobody gets hurt; Best of luck for your project.
 

SterlingArcher

Dangerrrrr Zone
Silver Member
The players are not paid a weekly salary per say.... They are paid weekly "X" amount of dollars per match they have played that week (22 matches per season) most times when a team is playing during a week they are playing more than one match. (This was scheduled to help the players by easing traveling expenses).

Furthermore the playoff winning are prorated per match played (Ex. Winning team receives $120,000 divide that by the 3 players = $40,000 now divide that per match (22) and you get $1818.... So technically for every match a player misses that might be a total much higher than $1000.)

Also the WPBL has 6 x $5000 Bonuses awarded at the end of the season for accumulated stats totals, which missing matches will definitely hinder chances for.

Wait.......so you are giving them the opportunity/option to miss matches??? What do you do when an entire team decides to play in a tournament that week at the last minute?

If you are selling season passes, I'd think a customer who purchased a pass in order to watch certain players would be rather upset to find out that player/s decided they were not going to play that week.
 
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nathandumoulin

WPBL / RUNOUT MEDIA
Silver Member
Wait.......so you are giving them the opportunity/option to miss matches???

Players have already told us which events they wish to attend, so we scheduled their teams off during most of those weeks. As such, very few of them will need to miss any matches.

For those that do, we have 2 alternates per team (guys like Chris Melling, Karl Boyes, etc). This gives us a chance to accommodate our star players, yet also gives us a chance to feature some heavy hitters from overseas that would otherwise not be able to play fulltime (due to travel limitations).

The second round of alternates is being assembled right now, and there are already some significant names joining the WPBL that may come as a surprise to some.
 

SterlingArcher

Dangerrrrr Zone
Silver Member
Players have already told us which events they wish to attend, so we scheduled their teams off during most of those weeks. As such, very few of them will need to miss any matches.

For those that do, we have 2 alternates per team (guys like Chris Melling, Karl Boyes, etc). This gives us a chance to accommodate our star players, yet also gives us a chance to feature some heavy hitters from overseas that would otherwise not be able to play fulltime (due to travel limitations).

The second round of alternates is being assembled right now, and there are already some significant names joining the WPBL that may come as a surprise to some.

So you're basically working on an "honor system?"

Good luck with that.......

There's a reason other sports instituted contracts. Again, what's the contingency plan when 3 players on a team who are not contractually obligated for whatever reason decide not to show up? You just tell the customer "sorry, our bad?" This is definitely not out of the realm of possibility. I believe recently there was supposed to be a streamed match where a player didn't show up.
 
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nathandumoulin

WPBL / RUNOUT MEDIA
Silver Member
There's a reason other sports instituted contracts.

Now that the new schedule is out, the players are deciding and submitting their rosters for each week of play. It's predetermined. The players have contracts (new versions are actually being written as we speak). There is no "honor" system.
 

meximan2469

WPBL
Silver Member
Wait.......so you are giving them the opportunity/option to miss matches???

Sorry to clarify, this is directed at the full time players. Each team is comprised of 3 full time players and 2 alternates. I believe the issue at hand is the full time players missing the other promoters tournaments. We do give them the option to play in other tournaments as long as the spots are filled with alternates. A team must field 3 players for every match or they will forfeit and not receive pay as well as receive a large deduction in points towards the season standings. These standings designate whether they make the playoffs and have the opportunity to win the big prize money at the end.

I don't anticipate having this problem occur though.

It is obviously not in our best interests to have alternates play over the regular players and that is why we have done the best job we can to work with the players by asking them which events they wanted to attend and built the schedule around those requests. It is impossible to make everyone happy but I think the players recognize the effort and appreciate the consideration.
 

SterlingArcher

Dangerrrrr Zone
Silver Member
Now that the new schedule is out, the players are deciding and submitting their rosters for each week of play. It's predetermined. The players have contracts (new versions are actually being written as we speak). There is no "honor" system.

Well, thats a bit of a contradiction to the other post above which explained the pay outs somewhat. It sounded like the only incentive for them to always show up was just the pay. In which once a player got halfway through a season, if there was no chance of making the playoffs, and no chance of getting a stat bonus, he might actually be better off that week just saying the hell with it and playing somewhere else.

Again, none of my business, and I'm only disseminating information from the posts. Hopefully the contracts would keep anything like this from happening.
 

SterlingArcher

Dangerrrrr Zone
Silver Member
Sorry to clarify, this is directed at the full time players. Each team is comprised of 3 full time players and 2 alternates. I believe the issue at hand is the full time players missing the other promoters tournaments. We do give them the option to play in other tournaments as long as the spots are filled with alternates. A team must field 3 players for every match or they will forfeit and not receive pay as well as receive a large deduction in points towards the season standings. These standings designate whether they make the playoffs and have the opportunity to win the big prize money at the end.

I don't anticipate having this problem occur though.

It is obviously not in our best interests to have alternates play over the regular players and that is why we have done the best job we can to work with the players by asking them which events they wanted to attend and built the schedule around those requests. It is impossible to make everyone happy but I think the players recognize the effort and appreciate the consideration.

Makes sense. I was just wondering if a team gets to a point where they are not in playoff contention, and players aren't in a spot to win the stats bonus.....is there something in place to keep them from just not showing up.

I understand pool players can be a stubborn group and want to always be in charge of where they play.....but, at some point if they want to get paid like other sports, they are going to have to put ink to paper and be restricted in certain things like other sports.

I know if I paid for something in order to watch a certain player play, and they were scheduled to play and didn't show up....I'd be rather irritated. It would only take a few instances of something like this to happen, and you'd lose a good amount of business.

Will the player's schedules be posted for the public? Some people will likely not be happy if they pay for X team's match one night only to find out X player wasn't even scheduled to play.

(sorry for all the questions, my profession requires me to always have a contingency plan, and a contingency plan for the contingency.....so its a habit for me to solve every angle before it happens)
 
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JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Interesting..... What if you could come to Vegas go see a live pool "show" featuring the best players in the World, in an arena with cushy seats while having a beer and some popcorn surrounded by lights and entertainment and showgirls. What if you could even gamble on this at the same time...... hmm..... sounds interesting ;)

Thanks for the reply. You may have asked the wrong person that question. :grin-square:

Here's my take. I've seen enough of the "best players in the world" to last me a lifetime.

I do not care for alcoholic beverages being consumed in pool settings. I've been to football games in D.C., Redskins to be exact, and it's the epitome of alcoholism. I can't tell you how many beers I've had spilled on me at football games. In particular, beer and pool don't mix. I much prefer the pool purist sentiment of a pristine venue, which would not include alcohol on their menu.

As far as popcorn, though it is good fiber, I'm on a diet 24/7/365. That's what happens when you approach 60 years old and have the metabolism of a turtle. Fresh fruit and other non-fat delicacies would be great. Get rid of the blood-mud food mentality that most pool rooms have today. Get a decent menu. In particular, most diehard pool people I know who sit in pool rooms for hours on end to sweat good pool prefer a fresh cup of coffee, good coffee.

Lights and entertainment, I'd rather go to a Vegas show and enjoy that, but as far as the showgirls, oh, man, are you BB people going to turn this into another T&A extravaganza? Good Lord, don't you think it's about time to attract females to the sport? In case you don't know it, it's the female half of the relationship that does most of the shopping; in other words, SPENDS MONEY. Who do you think buys more T-shirts, baseball caps, and souvenirs? BB is barking up the wrong tree if they are targeting a male-oriented audience. :embarrassed2:

You need to find a way to attract more ladies to your show. Having scantily dressed women walking around holding signs is demeaning to the other ladies sitting railside with their man. Now, if you have scantily dressed men a la Chippendale, this might spark my attention to view future matches. But the half-naked ladies is a turnoff to me, so I'll pass on BB if and when I'm ever in Vegas. I might let my other half go see BB without me, but I kind of doubt it. :wink:

My old man prefers to gamble on poker, football, NCAA, basketball, baseball, golf, and horses. In fact, I can guarantee you that he'd rather be at the off-track-betting place in a Vegas casino or throw dice than go to a BB game and gamble at pool. Trust me on this! If he's going to gamble on pool, he'd rather be gambling on himself.

Me personally, I'd never trust a bet in pool on the sidelines unless I had a piece of it. It's usually a sucker's bet to gamble on pool, but, hey, we have an action forum full of those types who like to gamble on pool. I'd suggest you sh*t-can the gambling and focus on presenting something more attractive.

Good luck to you in your future endeavors. For your sake, I'm glad you are earning a living today on BB. I've learned the hard way that one must prepare for the future when it comes to income. One can't ride around on empty all their life, suriving on one tank of gas; in other words, I hope you don't put all your eggs in one BB basket. ;)
 
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Fatboy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What are you talking about???? Is your comprehension really that bad?

Eric is saying that IF a NBA team had their HOME GAMES IN LAS VEGAS, they would not be bet on in a Las Vegas sportsbook.

I can let you know when UNLV was a top college basketball team, you could not bet on them in Vegas. You couldn't bet on them to even win the NCAA tournament.


thats correct, when the UNLV Rebels were a winning team, ALL home games were "Off the board", period.

about that time the NBA thought they had the juice to get their games on the board and lobbied the Gaming Commish to bring a team to town, as it would be lots of $$$ for Vegas, action etc. They got laughed out of town and that was about 20 years ago, NOTHING has changed.

MMA got on the board but again its a contact sport and owned by the "Right family" so to speak.


BB will get on the board when I'm spotting SVB the 7 ball......
 

Fatboy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
people dont leave the strip once they get to "town" ask the Down Town Development Board how well they have done the last 18 years since they created the "Fremont St Experience" the big stupid tube over Fremont St. And why most of the casinos who promised to particatpt in the funding of that mess why they are delinquent in their pro-rata payments to support it.

NOTHING gets people off-strip in Vegas except one thing-P*ssy, the strip clubs do and theur biz is only off 75% from 20 years ago, why? cause after 9/11 they(most strip casinos-especially MGM properties) started turning a blind eye on hoe's in the casino's. Which was a huge help for me, I sent more clients back to their rooms with "Company" to close biz deals than I can remember. And drive home, prior to that I had to go to strip clubs and "Act" like it was fun-sucker game right there. hated it.

I'd lay 1000 to 1 none of this was explored by BB before they signed the lease, I warned them, 2 miles from las vegas Bl is same as 2000 miles, the players will show up to get paid, thats it.


I aint knocking BB, hell I hope it works, there are great guys working there busting their ass's everyday. But all the hard work in the world cant over come the "Hold" the strip puts on people, i watched it for over 20 years. Nobody will take a cab from the strip and go watch pool-ever. I had a house a mile from BB with champions playing often, id have friends call "oh yeah i'll be there I want to watch so and so play" then a week later when they got home I'd get the call " I'm sorry blah blah blah" now if this happened once ok cool, but it ALWAYS happened, not just pool related things, people who i have known since high school promise to come visit, want to ride in a Lamborghini etc, still no-show 90% of the time, followed up with the call 2 weeks later. Nothing over comes the strip.
 

buddha162

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
NOTHING gets people off-strip in Vegas except one thing-P*ssy, the strip clubs do and theur biz is only off 75% from 20 years ago, why? cause after 9/11 they(most strip casinos-especially MGM properties) started turning a blind eye on hoe's in the casino's. Which was a huge help for me, I sent more clients back to their rooms with "Company" to close biz deals than I can remember. And drive home, prior to that I had to go to strip clubs and "Act" like it was fun-sucker game right there. hated it.

You do embody that ridiculous city: absolute sleazeball behavior and proud of it. Lends you credibility on this topic, so I read with interest.

-roger
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ultimate 10-Ball is in Tunica right before the Southern Classic (same tables). I think both Week 4 and Week 5 of BB overlap the Southern Classic. The nine ball portion of the Southern Classic is a BCA-sanctioned event. The US Open 8-Ball and 10-Ball are also BCA ranking events.


There's also the US Open One Pocket staring in Vegas on July 18th.

Lou Figueroa
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I totally agree with this in a normal business situation. In the pool world....does anyone really have enough pull to hurt BB if they didn't work with them? Are there really any real leaders, opinion leaders, or gatekeepers? If so, I think pool would be a little more successful currently.

I mean really, how many people in pool really have enough clout or pull to hurt BB? They definitely won't be able to sway the players from not playing if BB is paying them consistently.

Again, normally I totally agree. I just don't think pool is developed enough where anyone currently has enough pull to matter. Could be wrong.

I also agree their PR has been a train wreck to say the least.


Yes, there are people in pool that can help or hurt BB and many of them are here. Is it like major sports? No. But they're still in place, it's all just relative. Maybe not a question of "clout," more like "death by a thousand cuts" :)

Lou Figueroa
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, thats a bit of a contradiction to the other post above which explained the pay outs somewhat. It sounded like the only incentive for them to always show up was just the pay. In which once a player got halfway through a season, if there was no chance of making the playoffs, and no chance of getting a stat bonus, he might actually be better off that week just saying the hell with it and playing somewhere else.

Again, none of my business, and I'm only disseminating information from the posts. Hopefully the contracts would keep anything like this from happening.


I was wondering some of this too. In particular, about the enforceability of the contracts vis-a-vis the costs of suing violators and the (un)likelihood of collecting any judgements.

Lou Figueroa
 

JCIN

TheActionReport.com
Gold Member
Not sure what written agreement BB has with players, but if I owned a business, raised millions, and was paying them consistently more than they were making, it would be in black and white they don't have the option to miss an event without explicit written permission from the owner/president or whoever was designated to make that decision.

There's too much money at risk to just let pool players decide if they want to show up or not. If you're going to run a "league" with this many "teams" and you don't have contracts in place that restrict players from arbitrarily not showing up, especially to play in conflicting events.....you've made a huge mistake. There are no guarantees spectators will watch or sponsors will pay, but you have to make 100% sure your "product" is going to show up and play.

History has shown using an "honor system" with pool players would be a very, very bad idea.

If there is no such agreement in place and players choose to play in the other events......BB and the players as a whole deserve whatever fallout happens due to mismanagement and lack of foresight.

I agree with this pretty much 100%.

But the thing is....when you enter an industry with the attitude of "screw everybody else" then you better be ready for everybody else to say "screw you". So far that has not happened yet simply because Bonus Ball has not managed to actually do much of anything yet. But if they do and it starts hurting people then those people will most certainly do what they can to push back.

I don't think there is a chance in hell this thing lasts six months without either going bust or players defecting en masse for one reason or another so I don't think there will be any real impact in the long term. I do know that more than a few people who have a lot of stroke in the industry are paying very close attention and so far they are not very happy at all with the attitude displayed thus far from Team BB. You may say "So what." but like I said its easy to be the bully when no one is fighting back. Different story if a bunch of other big guys decided that you are the asshole and something needs to be done about it.

It wouldnt be very hard at all to get four or five guys in a room with the end result being a statement to the players of "If you miss our events for Bonus Ball you better like playing Bonus Ball because you will never play in our events again." All of a sudden the players have a little skin in the game. Its an interesting situation and I will watch as it unfolds. If nothing else I am positive there will be at least one EPIC bonus ball thread before its over.
 

JCIN

TheActionReport.com
Gold Member
people dont leave the strip once they get to "town" ask the Down Town Development Board how well they have done the last 18 years since they created the "Fremont St Experience" the big stupid tube over Fremont St. And why most of the casinos who promised to particatpt in the funding of that mess why they are delinquent in their pro-rata payments to support it.

NOTHING gets people off-strip in Vegas except one thing-P*ssy, the strip clubs do and theur biz is only off 75% from 20 years ago, why? cause after 9/11 they(most strip casinos-especially MGM properties) started turning a blind eye on hoe's in the casino's. Which was a huge help for me, I sent more clients back to their rooms with "Company" to close biz deals than I can remember. And drive home, prior to that I had to go to strip clubs and "Act" like it was fun-sucker game right there. hated it.

I'd lay 1000 to 1 none of this was explored by BB before they signed the lease, I warned them, 2 miles from las vegas Bl is same as 2000 miles, the players will show up to get paid, thats it.


I aint knocking BB, hell I hope it works, there are great guys working there busting their ass's everyday. But all the hard work in the world cant over come the "Hold" the strip puts on people, i watched it for over 20 years. Nobody will take a cab from the strip and go watch pool-ever. I had a house a mile from BB with champions playing often, id have friends call "oh yeah i'll be there I want to watch so and so play" then a week later when they got home I'd get the call " I'm sorry blah blah blah" now if this happened once ok cool, but it ALWAYS happened, not just pool related things, people who i have known since high school promise to come visit, want to ride in a Lamborghini etc, still no-show 90% of the time, followed up with the call 2 weeks later. Nothing over comes the strip.

+ a billion.

When Shane and Alex were playing a TAR match at the Riv years ago two out of the three days the seats were 50-70% empty. Only the final day when Alex made the comeback did it fill up. That was with 7000 people who paid to come to Vegas with the main focus being to play pool LITERALLY across the hall. If they wont walk twenty feet they aint getting in a cab.

People ask why our studio is so small. I tell them all the same thing:"The money is online. Why would we spend money on a big space that we cant fill ?"

But then what the hell do I know ? We keep hearing about all this gee whiz stuff no one else understands or knows about so I stand by to be amazed.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
...
It wouldnt be very hard at all to get four or five guys in a room with the end result being a statement to the players of "If you miss our events for Bonus Ball you better like playing Bonus Ball because you will never play in our events again." All of a sudden the players have a little skin in the game. Its an interesting situation and I will watch as it unfolds. If nothing else I am positive there will be at least one EPIC bonus ball thread before its over.

This is more impossible to occur than the rest of your statement. Its been shown in the history of pool that players can't organize themselves into any cohesive union/group, and promoters can't organize themselves either (presumably because they were former players).

Not agreeing or disagreeing with the rest of your post, but the part I quoted would never in a million years happen.
 
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