Resolve a debate for me about English

[BRussell]

I've had a debate with some playing buddies and I would like AZ to resolve it.

Say you're shooting a ball that sits in the center of the table into the side pocket. The cue ball is close to the OB but slightly to the right of the line, so you have to cut the OB a bit to the right. But here's the key: You want to limit the natural leftward movement of the CB as much as possible. What type of English would kill the CB the most?

What makes sense to me is to use outside (left, in this case) English. This allows you to hit the ball more full, and relies on some throw to the right to put the OB on the correct path to the pocket.

But everyone I play with swears that you reduce cue ball movement with inside (right) English. But they can't really articulate why this works in a way that makes sense to me.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Both ways can work IMO depending on the shot. If its an almost full hit outside will work as you described.

If you use inside, it would be elevated in the form of a mini masse. So the CB would curve and hit the OB head on.

Inside without elevation won't work.

I'm just an average player these are my opinions, and may be wrong

 

[8onthebreak]

What he said

Both ways can work IMO depending on the shot. If its an almost full hit outside will work as you described.

If you use inside, it would be elevated in the form of a mini masse. So the CB would curve and hit the OB head on.

Inside without elevation won't work.

I'm just an average player these are my opinions, and may be wrong

Outside is the correct answer, unless using some masse, or something.
Inside would require a thinner cut, accentuating the throw, and cueball moves faster, the thinner the cut.

 

[Neil]

If you use outside, you will throw the ball some. Thereby you can hit the ob fuller to hold the cb.

If you use inside, you are counting on swerve to control the cb. Your cb starts out on a path way to thin to make the ob, then the inside spin grabs and curves the cb back on a straighter line to make the ball.

In both extremes, inside will hold the cb the most because you can actually have the cb coming in on a dead straight line to the pocket. (semi-masse')

 

[West Point 1987]

I've had a debate with some playing buddies and I would like AZ to resolve it.

Say you're shooting a ball that sits in the center of the table into the side pocket. The cue ball is close to the OB but slightly to the right of the line, so you have to cut the OB a bit to the right. But here's the key: You want to limit the natural leftward movement of the CB as much as possible. What type of English would kill the CB the most?

What makes sense to me is to use outside (left, in this case) English. This allows you to hit the ball more full, and relies on some throw to the right to put the OB on the correct path to the pocket.

But everyone I play with swears that you reduce cue ball movement with inside (right) English. But they can't really articulate why this works in a way that makes sense to me.

Why "resolve" this here on AZB? Just line it up and shoot it 5-6 times each way (outside then inside) and you'll have your answer. Without seeing just now offline the angle is, we'll just chase each other around talking swerve versus throw...oh, I just got it. Never mind.

 

[8onthebreak]

If you use outside, you will throw the ball some. Thereby you can hit the ob fuller to hold the cb.

If you use inside, you are counting on swerve to control the cb. Your cb starts out on a path way to thin to make the ob, then the inside spin grabs and curves the cb back on a straighter line to make the ball.

In both extremes, inside will hold the cb the most because you can actually have the cb coming in on a dead straight line to the pocket. (semi-masse')

Agree...EXCEPT for the part where op stated that the cue ball was CLOSE to the object ball...in that short dstance, I doubt that u could SWERVE the cue ball enough to change the angle of the direction that the cue ball is coming from, enough to slow down the cueball, without using MASSE, which is why I say outside is only thing that makes sense to me without jacking up.

Good thought on the swerve tho, could maybe work with distance between the balls.

 

[Masayoshi]

Agree...EXCEPT for the part where op stated that the cue ball was CLOSE to the object ball...in that short dstance, I doubt that u could SWERVE the cue ball enough to change the angle of the direction that the cue ball is coming from, enough to slow down the cueball, without using MASSE, which is why I say outside is only thing that makes sense to me without jacking up.

Good thought on the swerve tho, could maybe work with distance between the balls.

That's why you jack up. If you jack up, you can actually get the cue ball to masse in the opposite direction of the natural angle AFTER it hits the object ball as long as the angle was not too steep. Its actually a much more reliable shot than trying to hold with outside because you don't have to worry about speed control. The key is not hitting the shot too soft.

 

[BRussell]

OK, the swerve thing makes sense.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Say you're shooting a ball that sits in the center of the table into the side pocket. The cue ball is close to the OB but slightly to the right of the line, so you have to cut the OB a bit to the right. But here's the key: You want to limit the natural leftward movement of the CB as much as possible.

Limit the natural movement of the CB in what way.

English or no english, the instantaneous path after CB-OB contact preserves momentum and energy.

On the other hand a bit of top makes the CB move forward after contact, while a little draw makes it move backwards after contact.

What type of English would kill the CB the most?

Soft Draw.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Here is challenge for when the balls are close together:
http://www.sfbilliards.com/throwtest.gif
The result is that if the balls are close you can make both of them move to the left of the line of the shot with "outside" (in this case, right) english.

When the balls are farther apart it is not possible to get both balls to move to the left of the shot line with right english. If you use left side though, and elevate, you can use swerve to alter the direction of the cue ball. Even though the left side tends to pull the object ball to the right, you can still get both balls to move to the left of the line of the shot.

In general the swerve solution requires more elevation than is comfortable for most people. If you want to practice it, try easy shots. Here is a drill where such shots are suitable:http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2001-04.pdf -- See diagram 1C. You will also get to practice the "kill the cue ball with outside" technique.

About the comment above: just go to the table and try it. Well, yes, this is often true, but.... This works better if you have some idea of what's possible and the techniques to use.

Related to which, at a billiard expo several years ago the question came up of what was the best way to draw the cue ball back a little and as straight as possible from an object ball that was about a diamond away. Doing it without any side spin was as effective as anything else. We did not try the "elevate and swerve back" option as it is much more difficult if the shot has any length to it.

Here is a video from Mike Page about the swerve (or masse) version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZAqHno_Kr4

 

[dr_dave]

Here is challenge for when the balls are close together:
http://www.sfbilliards.com/throwtest.gif
The result is that if the balls are close you can make both of them move to the left of the line of the shot with "outside" (in this case, right) english.

When the balls are farther apart it is not possible to get both balls to move to the left of the shot line with right english. If you use left side though, and elevate, you can use swerve to alter the direction of the cue ball. Even though the left side tends to pull the object ball to the right, you can still get both balls to move to the left of the line of the shot.

For those interested, additional articles, a math/physics proof, and video demonstrations on this topic can be found here:

using throw to limit cue ball drift

Related to which, at a billiard expo several years ago the question came up of what was the best way to draw the cue ball back a little and as straight as possible from an object ball that was about a diamond away. Doing it without any side spin was as effective as anything else. We did not try the "elevate and swerve back" option as it is much more difficult if the shot has any length to it.

FYI, Tom Ross and I looked at this topic in detail and put together the following videos:

NV B.25 - Using draw and sidespin to beat a scratch in a side pocket, with Tom Ross
NV B.31 - Using inside english and follow to beat a scratch and get down-table position

Here is a video from Mike Page about the swerve (or masse) version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZAqHno_Kr4

For those interested, here are some additional examples:

NV B.38 - After-collision masse example with a nearly straight-in shots, with Tom Ross
NV B.39 - After-collision masse example to avoid an obstacle ball, with Tom Ross

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[CJ Wiley]

pool's not like golf where there's 14 clubs, there's just one, so you want to ......

I've had a debate with some playing buddies and I would like AZ to resolve it.

Say you're shooting a ball that sits in the center of the table into the side pocket. The cue ball is close to the OB but slightly to the right of the line, so you have to cut the OB a bit to the right. But here's the key: You want to limit the natural leftward movement of the CB as much as possible. What type of English would kill the CB the most?

What makes sense to me is to use outside (left, in this case) English. This allows you to hit the ball more full, and relies on some throw to the right to put the OB on the correct path to the pocket.

But everyone I play with swears that you reduce cue ball movement with inside (right) English. But they can't really articulate why this works in a way that makes sense to me.

When cutting the object ball thin using a "touch" of Inside is usually the best because the cue ball is deflecting away from the object ball cutting it thinner, which is advantageous. There's not enough time to really spin, so the deflection becomes more of a minute factor,
Remember, when the cue ball is close to the object ball it's also a good practice to shorten your bridge to the same length as the distance between the two balls. This is especially crucial if you are shooting straight to keep from fouling. In some instances you must do this to keep from fouling or at least drastically reduce the chances.

The bridge length is not something you want to be the same all the time and when you do need to shorten it I would recommend choking up on your grip as well. This keeps everything consistent, as far as your upper body angles relative to your cue.....the shorter the cue, the shorter the bridge, and this is done by "choking up".

Just an option, pool's not like golf where there's 14 clubs, there's just one, so you want to learn to do as much with it as possible in a way that doesn't change your natural style. 'The Game is the Teacher'.com

 

[Bob Jewett]

That's why you jack up. If you jack up, you can actually get the cue ball to masse in the opposite direction of the natural angle AFTER it hits the object ball as long as the angle was not too steep. Its actually a much more reliable shot than trying to hold with outside because you don't have to worry about speed control. The key is not hitting the shot too soft.

It takes a little practice to get the swerve/throw/immediate masse right. If the balls are close, it's a lot easier.

 

[Masayoshi]

It takes a little practice to get the swerve/throw/immediate masse right. If the balls are close, it's a lot easier.

Its pretty much a gimme up close. At longer distances, the harder you hit the shot, the less the cue ball curves on its way to the object ball, making it easier to pot. In this case, getting the cue ball a little bit airborn helps quite a bit.

 

[CreeDo]

btw dave, your site seems to be having issues, it tries to load for a while and then times out (as of around 10:30 eastern on 6/3). hopefully just a temporary hiccup.

 

[dr_dave]

btw dave, your site seems to be having issues, it tries to load for a while and then times out (as of around 10:30 eastern on 6/3). hopefully just a temporary hiccup.

It must have been a temporary hiccup. It's working fine now.

Thanks for letting me know,
Dave