** Pool Pays The Players **

It was suppose to say pool pays the player.
Can't edit a headline, at least I don't know how if so.
:(
 
JumpinJoe said:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=322555

You just got to have some heart and get in the box. That's what pool is about.

Lil Flea (vs) Josh Roberts
15 ahead for $16,000 (4 months of bonus ball pay, in a few days)

Now that's a pool headline.
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It's great that Josh and Lil Flea are playing for $16,000, but the comparison with BB is off-base.

Josh and Lil Flea are gambling which is a zero-sum game. Each came to the table with $16,000. One wins and one loses, but there's still only $32,000 between them; it's just "redistributed."

On the other hand, BB creates wealth for the industry because the players are being paid money that didn't come from them. BB has 36 players making $12,000 (my guess, I don't know how much they're making). That's $432,000 added to pool players' wealth.
 
bdorman said:
It's great that Josh and Lil Flea are playing for $16,000, but the comparison with BB is off-base.

Josh and Lil Flea are gambling which is a zero-sum game. Each came to the table with $16,000. One wins and one loses, but there's still only $32,000 between them; it's just "redistributed."

On the other hand, BB creates wealth for the industry because the players are being paid money that didn't come from them. BB has 36 players making $12,000 (my guess, I don't know how much they're making). That's $432,000 added to pool players' wealth.
Click to expand...

I was going to post but I have little to ad to this. Well said.

In fact, theoretically speaking, the winner must pay income tax on the winnings and the loser cannot deduct the losses, so it's worse than a zero sum game.
 
bdorman said:
It's great that Josh and Lil Flea are playing for $16,000, but the comparison with BB is off-base.

Josh and Lil Flea are gambling which is a zero-sum game. Each came to the table with $16,000. One wins and one loses, but there's still only $32,000 between them; it's just "redistributed."

On the other hand, BB creates wealth for the industry because the players are being paid money that didn't come from them. BB has 36 players making $12,000 (my guess, I don't know how much they're making). That's $432,000 added to pool players' wealth.
Click to expand...

50% min. of that cash will never leave Vegas.
 
sjm said:
I was going to post but I have little to ad to this. Well said.

In fact, theoretically speaking, the winner must pay income tax on the winnings and the loser cannot deduct the losses, so it's worse than a zero sum game.
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Actually a professional gambler can declare losses. The professional gambler declares wins and losses to come up with a gross income that is then used to figure the tax rate he owes.

Here is an interesting tidbit though that has nothing to do with the cash exchanges.

Paying off gambling bets is not allowed on paypal but people do it anyway.

So you and a group of friends start out with $1000 between you and start betting the $1000. Each time you pay someone else pp gets 3%ish. How many bets can you pay off before Paypal has the whole thousand? Answer about 167ish. Now that's a good business.
 
JB Cases said:
Actually a professional gambler can declare losses. The professional gambler declares wins and losses to come up with a gross income that is then used to figure the tax rate he owes.

Here is an interesting tidbit though that has nothing to do with the cash exchanges.

Paying off gambling bets is not allowed on paypal but people do it anyway.

So you and a group of friends start out with $1000 between you and start betting the $1000. Each time you pay someone else pp gets 3%ish. How many bets can you pay off before Paypal has the whole thousand? Answer about 167ish. Now that's a good business.
Click to expand...

Anyone can deduct gambling losses up to the amount of their gamblings winnings. But you have to do so on Sched A (itemized deductions).
 
bdorman said:
It's great that Josh and Lil Flea are playing for $16,000, but the comparison with BB is off-base.

Josh and Lil Flea are gambling which is a zero-sum game. Each came to the table with $16,000. One wins and one loses, but there's still only $32,000 between them; it's just "redistributed."

On the other hand, BB creates wealth for the industry because the players are being paid money that didn't come from them. BB has 36 players making $12,000 (my guess, I don't know how much they're making). That's $432,000 added to pool players' wealth.
Click to expand...

So the estimate is about $500 week, or about $12K per season. Well if that's what makes the players happy, great. But then I suppose when a stake horse tells his player he will pay him $500/week to play whatever matches or tournaments he can line up then he should also be happy with that and play his heart out. After all, they have basically told the market what their time is worth. The days of having to give the player any cut of the action are over I guess. :rolleyes:

BTW, are Josh and Lil Flea staking themselves? If not, they are both getting a free roll at some cash and the economics for the players are therefore a little different than you describe.
 
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DogsPlayingPool said:
So the estimate is about $500 week, or about $12K per season. Well if that's what makes the players happy, great. But then I suppose when their stake horse tells his player he will pay him $500/week to play whatever matches he can line up then they should also be happy with that. After all, they have basically told the market what their time is worth. The days of having to give the player any cut of the action are over I guess. :rolleyes:
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Not so fast. You pay your attorney a retainer which covers basic availability but you still get billed when you need something done.

The Bonus Ball players are agreeing to a small salary in exchange for a shot at larger money at the end of the season and I would hope at shot at increased wages and prizes in subsequent seasons.

If a backer wants to make a deal with players to be "on call" for action for a weekly fee that is fine but in no way means that the players are then giving up a cut of the winnings.
 
JB Cases said:
Not so fast. You pay your attorney a retainer which covers basic availability but you still get billed when you need something done.

The Bonus Ball players are agreeing to a small salary in exchange for a shot at larger money at the end of the season and I would hope at shot at increased wages and prizes in subsequent seasons.

If a backer wants to make a deal with players to be "on call" for action for a weekly fee that is fine but in no way means that the players are then giving up a cut of the winnings.
Click to expand...

Maybe you pay your attorney to just be available but I never have. Any retainer I've ever given a lawyer is nothing more than a deposit and any billings go against that.

Your point about playoff money is valid however. So amortize that extra money over all the players and it is easy to figure out what the average player's salary is. The point I'm making is the players are now playing for a salary and not a cut. So why should it be any different if a backer puts them in a tournament or in the box against another player heads up?

In any event, two backed players matching up is not a zero sum game for the players.
 
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DogsPlayingPool said:
Maybe you pay your attorney to just be available but I never have. Any retainer I've ever given a lawyer is nothing more than a deposit and any billings go against that.

Your point about playoff money is valid however. So amortize that extra money over all the players and it is easy to figure out what the average player's salary is. The point I'm making is the players are now playing for a salary and not a cut. So why should it be any different if a backer puts them in a tournament or in the box against another player heads up?
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We are both right :-) http://www.rotlaw.com/legal-library/what-is-a-lawyer-retainer-fee/

It depends on the agreement the players make with their backers. If they agree to perform for a salary and have extra money available for a better performance then that's one way to go.

Gambling will always be different than league play. In Bonus Ball's case there is ONE backer and he has offered a weekly stipend and a seasonal bonus pot to be shared based on performance. In the case of players who are backed in gambling sessions or in tournaments then the agreement will typically remain that the player will get a cut of the winnings after expenses.

One method is a secure income and the other could be worth more or a lot less. Pro players have to take what they can get at thus point though.

In the aggregate the question should be, could this same group of players make as much or more through their pre-bonus ball activities? As if Bonus Ball did not exist would they make as much by doing what they always did? And what would their expenses be against their winnings? Would the net be higher or lower?

The current money rankings on AZB have the top 20 earners at about 525,000 so far and that list includes 3 women and two carom players. Conversely Bonus Ball is set to pay out how much in regular season salaries? I don't know, I can't find any information about money on the site, so I think I saw something about $420,000 in regular season pay and a million dollars in prize money. If so that's 1.4 million that will be put into the player's hands over an eight month period. Not bad for about 48 players to split. Works out to about 29k for an 8 month gig where they only have to actually "work" for a couple hours a week. (of course I don't know the details of what they are required to do but I am fairly sure it's not 9-5 deal)

I assume however that the players are free to do other things and attend other events when they don't have matches. As well they can put in their alternates. Regarding expenses they share apartments and cars and end up reducing the expenses dramatically. (I did this as a paid high diver)

So maybe it sounds like the players are selling out for a paycheck but maybe not. Maybe for them this could work out. I am hopeful as I always am when these things come along. In the meantime Southwest flies all over the country and I am sure that anyone who wants to back a Bonus Ball player can have them hop on a plane and take on the winner of Lil D and Josh Roberts in any game they want.

Last little point, John Schmidt once said if the top American players could play and train together like the Filipinos then they would be as good. Well here it is and if John's right then Americans will once again be snapping off events and snapping off gambling sessions regularly.
 
On your last point, if the team format/training does anything I'd settle for it keeping the Mosconi Cup here for a while. :grin-square:
 
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Hrm, play with other professionals, on camera, in a nice environenment, with expenses paid...
and get guaranteed money just for showing up.

vs.

Play your nuts off, and risk not getting a dime, pray you don't piss off your backer,
then get robbed at gunpoint even if you win.

Yeah that unfortunately the second one DOES sound more like "real pool" to me.
 
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