FWIW to the OP, when you get an adjustment AFTER putting up, tell the LO you're putting up your lowest SL player instead.
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APA Corruption..?
- Thread starter Rio19
- Start date
Yeah, I know how that would play out. We'd see extreme cases of KHM (Keyboard Handicap Manipulation). Hell, the APA ain't the only place where players handicaps are all screwed up
.Shit, everyone on here's a SL9
!!!Maniac (one of the few on here that admits to playing like crap :embarrassed2
We got no explination. My Captain protested and he was told he was not going to tell the LO how to run her business..
Meet the APA,... Same as the APA
Meet the APA,... Same as the APA:frown:
Listen people...I'm listenin'
Play this league for the fun and occasional beer (Ok. I can do that)
Don't get bent over politics and the "Equalizer" <--- J-O-K-E
Play your game and STFU . (Well said. A lil harder to apply (esp. when certain ppl start barking) )
Y'all just don't get it or there are no other options for league play. ( no other options sadly !! ) :frown::frown:
The honest people cry. (and snivvle sometimes too ! ) :lol:
The L.O.'s defend, but at the end of the day this is a recreational league. (great time to have a beer or 2 ,.... or,....... )
Work with your low skilled players to make them better ( !at least THAT is fun ! )
I want a 2 on my team, just like you do. Get real now, after a couple of sessions they will move up if you work with 'em. Hell they might even move up sooner. (well, I'd prefer the flexibility of a "3" )
Go with a 7-6-6-3-3-2, etc. and work hard recruiting every session, if your dream is Vegas.( verrrry close but not quite what I want for Vega$ )
Or start a BCA league unless you can join one. Buy in to the BCA tournament and play straight up. They don't care how bad or good you play.:scratchhead:
I think I'll start a survey asking how many APA bashers on this forum are SL4 and lower. ( of course everyone here issa "9" )
You know how that would play out.
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Meet the APA,... Same as the APA
:frown:
Short of suing in court or getting some sort of injunction or restraining order I'm kind of at a loss for what else you can do. You should definitely contact the APA main office. Not that it will make a difference but you may not be the only ones that have been yanked around without explanation, your LO may have a history of this kind of thing and this would not be the first time.
I don't know if they're supposed to, or if it's a rule within the APA or something like that, but if we have a question about our S/L here, our LO has offered to sit down with us and go through our match scores, not showing any part of the "secret formula" but offering a valid explanation as to why something is like it is.
If you care to know why or to maybe try to correct the situation, I think protocol demands that there are a certain series of steps that be taken, at least so if you do contact the main office you're taken seriously instead of as a player with some sour grapes.
Then there's the alternative, maybe you'd just rather move on. No shame there, it's what almost everybody else has done when they've had enough, then your issue fades away and no one cares. If you do decide to let it go, may I suggest a couple of things before you move on, first email the APA in St. Louis and let them know what happened, invite them to check for themselves and offer to assist in any way you can, after all, your membership is good until the end of the calendar year. They still have an obligation to treat you fairly and honor your membership. Second, if you do quit, and your whole team quits, sign up for the next session and let them do the paperwork and make the schedule then don't show up. A team here did this (for a different reason) in a 5 team division and the division had to fold. Infantile and immature? Absolutely, but what else can you do?
I don't know if they're supposed to, or if it's a rule within the APA or something like that, but if we have a question about our S/L here, our LO has offered to sit down with us and go through our match scores, not showing any part of the "secret formula" but offering a valid explanation as to why something is like it is.
If you care to know why or to maybe try to correct the situation, I think protocol demands that there are a certain series of steps that be taken, at least so if you do contact the main office you're taken seriously instead of as a player with some sour grapes.
Then there's the alternative, maybe you'd just rather move on. No shame there, it's what almost everybody else has done when they've had enough, then your issue fades away and no one cares. If you do decide to let it go, may I suggest a couple of things before you move on, first email the APA in St. Louis and let them know what happened, invite them to check for themselves and offer to assist in any way you can, after all, your membership is good until the end of the calendar year. They still have an obligation to treat you fairly and honor your membership. Second, if you do quit, and your whole team quits, sign up for the next session and let them do the paperwork and make the schedule then don't show up. A team here did this (for a different reason) in a 5 team division and the division had to fold. Infantile and immature? Absolutely, but what else can you do?
Perhaps you'd better read the post you quoted again.
From the post you quoted
APA Operator said:
If someone certifies themselves higher then they are moved up. This gives the "sandbagger" the opportunity to come clean. In most higher tourneys if you get moved up 2 levels it's a DQ.
Teams are DQ'd in higher level tourneys if they are caught cheating. No system is perfect but I think the APA does a pretty good job policing itself.
I've given that answer once or twice. That's what I say when someone gets confrontational or tries to bully me in public. I'm not saying that's what happened here, just that when other teams/players are watching there's some pressure on the LO to not give the appearance that they can be pushed around.
As I said before, someone really needs to get an explanation. I would start with the LO. It's been a few days, so maybe she's more willing to discuss it. Don't try to debate what she can or cannot do, simply ask her why she did it. Tell her you need to know so you can move on. If she refuses, or if you are not satisfied with the answer, contact the national office. Don't threaten to contact them, don't mention the national office at all to her, just escalate if you're not satisfied with what she tells you. Keep in mind that the national office will contact her to find out what she did and why, so just tell them what happened and ask them to look into it for you - keep any accusations of favoritism out of the initial discussion. They hear that all the time and it's almost never true, so even if it's true here they won't believe it if you lead with that angle.
I gave some reasons in a previous post why someone might write in a skill level change, but I can think of no reason why that person would be unwilling to explain exactly why they did so. In fact, when doing it for a legitimate reason the proper thing to do is provide the explanation before making the actual change. If you exhaust your options and still do not have a satisfactory answer, my recommendation would be to (wait for it...) walk. The operator either had a good reason for doing what she did, or she didn't. If you walk, make sure the national office knows why.
Isn't that regarding disciplinary action taken against a player? Was any disciplinary action taken?
Certainly raising a S/L isn't seen as a form of disciplinary action by the APA, unless I've missed something. I'm curious about this, please explain.
IS there a Board of Governor's in the OP's area?
huntergate
New member
You may get a reply, certainly no guarantee they will contact anyone. My wife wrote the national office on May 3, 2013 and made multiple phone calls concerning her suspension. She still can't get a reply, she even went so far as to talk to a neighboring league operator. He guaranteed her a phone call. She is still waiting.
Banks
Banned
She may want to follow up. National singles finished about a week prior and for the next month they were packing up from that and getting a mountain of paperwork from LOs for team stuff. It took about 5 or 6 weeks for them to send me something from the singles tournament, but they did do it. I also once sent an e-mail and got a phone call response. They've been pretty good about that from the few times I've dealt with them.
huntergate
New member
Last call was yesterday. Our leagues session started yesterday. We have moved to NAPA, so far we like it better.
I have a question for APA Operator:
Why would a skill level be raised on a player after they were thrown? In the case this does happen does the team that threw the player have the option to switch players?
Why would a skill level be raised on a player after they were thrown? In the case this does happen does the team that threw the player have the option to switch players?
I gave a few reasons why I have done it in the past or might do it in the future here:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4208236&postcount=22
It's not covered in the rules, so the individual LO would make the call about switching players. I would let the team switch, but then again I would give them the explanation FIRST for what I was about to do.
To be fair, in the examples you provided, you mentioned that you made the change on the score sheet after it was printed.... not after the matchup was determined.
So in the case(s) where you made the change it was after the match had already started? If that is the case why not let the game play out instead of raising the player during the match and potentially forcing a team to break the 23 rule?
**Edit** When I say matchup I mean the individual matchup. In this example a team throws a SL6 and you counter with a SL6 and at that point the LO says he is really a SL7.
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The certification statement example has happened a couple of times. Once it was a player who was on multiple teams and only certified himself higher on one of the teams (not the one playing at the time). The captain of the team playing at the time had written all of the numbers for his players and the player in question just signed without looking at the number. He had gone up in the regular session between tricups and LTC and wrote the higher number on the other sheet. I missed the other number, and when he was put up on the team where he hadn't certified himself up, he himself got confused as to what his skill level was. I found the two certification forms and lectured his captain about filling in skill levels for the players, then told him he had to play at the higher number because that's the one he filled in. He was fine with it and it didn't affect the team's ability to meet the 23 rule, so they just continued. The issue of changing the player never came up.
I have a few questions for you apa operator.
1. I know you cant divulge how the handicap formula works but can you answer how much safties factor into a persons handicap ?
2. is it true that a person would never be lowered 2 handicap levels ? example : a person has been a 5 for a year, goes to a 6 for 1 session, falls back to a 5 the next session. stays a 5 for 3 sessions then falls to a 25% win record . is it true he will never be lowered to a 4 no matter what his record becomes simply because he reached a 6 for 1 session?
3. can a person petition to have a handicap level lowered due to a disability ? for example an injury to your shooting hand that symptoms worsen as you age ?
.4. I know you their is such a thing as having your handicap locked in at the national level. would your local handicap level be locked in at the level you qualified for a regional tournament also ? example : a person qualifies for a singles regional as a 3. is it true she could never be lowered to a 2 at the local level just because she qualified at the regionals as a 3 and went 0-2.
I guess I am trying to ask case specific questions that would be hard for you to give an objective answer with out knowing the players history.
instead of erasing all this crap let me just ask general questions.
can a player ever be lowered 2 levels.
is a players local handicap locked in at the same level as they qualified for singles regionals ?
is their such a thing as a petition to lower your handicap due to a medical condition /
1. I know you cant divulge how the handicap formula works but can you answer how much safties factor into a persons handicap ?
2. is it true that a person would never be lowered 2 handicap levels ? example : a person has been a 5 for a year, goes to a 6 for 1 session, falls back to a 5 the next session. stays a 5 for 3 sessions then falls to a 25% win record . is it true he will never be lowered to a 4 no matter what his record becomes simply because he reached a 6 for 1 session?
3. can a person petition to have a handicap level lowered due to a disability ? for example an injury to your shooting hand that symptoms worsen as you age ?
.4. I know you their is such a thing as having your handicap locked in at the national level. would your local handicap level be locked in at the level you qualified for a regional tournament also ? example : a person qualifies for a singles regional as a 3. is it true she could never be lowered to a 2 at the local level just because she qualified at the regionals as a 3 and went 0-2.
I guess I am trying to ask case specific questions that would be hard for you to give an objective answer with out knowing the players history.
instead of erasing all this crap let me just ask general questions.
can a player ever be lowered 2 levels.
is a players local handicap locked in at the same level as they qualified for singles regionals ?
is their such a thing as a petition to lower your handicap due to a medical condition /
Ok so at the suggestions of a few AZers in the thread we demanded an explination as to why my teammate was moved the way he was. Before we went to her we had the leauge rep pull up all the score sheets for the session including the tri-cup.
My teammate started the session as a SL5 he won 70% of his matches as a 5 including the tri-cup which we all knew he was going up to a 6 at that point because he was on his game. After he got moved to a 6 he played 7 matches, won 3 of them add in the one match at LTC's so he was 4 and 4 as a 6.
We presented this info to our LO and she says to us that she can pick out ten matches and of her choosing and use it as justification for changing his or anybodys SL(WOW WTF). Which means she had to go back when he was shooting as a SL 5 to justify making him a 7. Now again we have all the score sheets and maybe one or two of those victories were big and by big I mean a 14-6 and I think one was 17-3.
She then was kind enough to inform us yet again that she will run her business the way she chooses.
Is this normal LO behavior? Is this the way that the APA wants their loyal paying players treated? The APA markets itself as fair unbias league but if the LO is allowed to do as she or he pleases with no one to answer to the that marketing ploy is nothing more than a delusion of granger. And every member is being lied to.
No. Yes and Yes. We have every single situation in our league