8 Ball - Attack, Attack, Attack!

Pidge

Pidge

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Played the last match of the current season in my 8 ball league on Monday and was left with having to win my match to have a flawless season. I found out the guy I was playing was in the bottom half of the standing having lost more than he had won. I assumed it was a dead cert I was going to win...I lost.

The reason? He had a stupidly good knowledge of 8 ball safety play. I've entered every match this season with the mentality that attack would win me more games than I would lose, and when I played safe choosing to play an aggressive safety would be better than playing a passive safety. Thus far, playing ultra attacking 8 ball has won me 22 matches and lost 1. This guy played ultra passive. Make a ball (lose position, or so I thought. Now I think about it I think he purposely played position not to run out, but to make the inevitable upcoming safe shot easier), play safe, leave me with nothing, and either get ball in hand or left wide open. We could have played 50 games and he would have beaten me atleast 3:1. I had no answer to it. Attack was not going to win me that match. And I take my hat off to the guy, he used what he was good at to full advantage.

So my question is - what style of play is most successful in 8 ball, and was the only way to win, to play like my opponent?
 
to me it depends on who the opponent is.

If I am playing someone who can run out easily I will be playing safe more. If you take am aggressive shot against a strong player and miss you will probably lose. If I am playing a weaker player I might be more aggressive knowing he probably can't run out.
 
I think the answer is "it depends". That's what makes 8 ball an interesting game to me. It is as much about the thinking and the strategy as it is about pocketing balls and moving the ball around the table. It depends upon the table layout in front of you. It depends on the style of play of your opponent and their skill level. It depends upon your skill level and even your state of mind at the time you're playing.

I'd highly recommend purchasing a copy of the 8 Ball Bible. It is one of the best instructional books for pool I've read and I've read a lot of them. It will answer a lot of your questions.

One consistent thing I see with many decent players who are good at pocketing balls is their tendency to go for a run out with just about any table layout. They often leave the trouble balls/clusters until last. They often will run out 5 to 7 balls leaving the lone 8 or one of their object balls to your full, or nearly full, table. One consistent thing I've seen from players at the next level up is looking to take care of those trouble balls early and playing safes while in the process of doing that.

Winning 8 ball play on a bar table doesn't necessarily require dazzling ball pocketing skills or a lot of moving the ball around the table. More often it requires good strategy, good safety play and finesse CB control while clearing an area of the table.
 
Good post, Pidge.
I got a few road miles on me...I learned to observe my opponent....
...and play the last style he wanted to see.

Pool, like chess and boxing, is a war game.
People that say they just play the table are missing half the fun.
 
pt109 said:
Good post, Pidge.
I got a few road miles on me...I learned to observe my opponent....
...and play the last style he wanted to see.

Pool, like chess and boxing, is a war game.
People that say they just play the table are missing half the fun.
Click to expand...
I couldn't have made this into a war with this guy. I played him a couple of years ago in a best of 5 for 50. He didn't get a single shot and he was still smiling and joking with me. The atmosphere this time was exactly the same, he was laughing and joking at the table and I couldn't help but laugh after he put me is 6 consecutive snookers. On the plus side he did buy me a beer for kicking my ass! I said he should buy me a keg for ending my flawless run, but he said no :(

I just didn't get his tactics. I broke and nothing went down. Striped were wide open, but he didn't have an opener to get him started so he pots and easy spot, and leaves his self with a cluster of 3 on the table. I thought "I win!" in my head but he got me stuck between cusion and the 3 ball cluster every damn time. I think that's the only reason he chose spots! He ended up winning 5-4, and the only games I won were the break and run games. I had nothing on this guy when it came to a dry break. I'm amazed he hadn't won more matches.
 
Pidge said:
Played the last match of the current season in my 8 ball league on Monday and was left with having to win my match to have a flawless season. I found out the guy I was playing was in the bottom half of the standing having lost more than he had won. I assumed it was a dead cert I was going to win...I lost.

The reason? He had a stupidly good knowledge of 8 ball safety play. I've entered every match this season with the mentality that attack would win me more games than I would lose, and when I played safe choosing to play an aggressive safety would be better than playing a passive safety. Thus far, playing ultra attacking 8 ball has won me 22 matches and lost 1. This guy played ultra passive. Make a ball (lose position, or so I thought. Now I think about it I think he purposely played position not to run out, but to make the inevitable upcoming safe shot easier), play safe, leave me with nothing, and either get ball in hand or left wide open. We could have played 50 games and he would have beaten me atleast 3:1. I had no answer to it. Attack was not going to win me that match. And I take my hat off to the guy, he used what he was good at to full advantage.

So my question is - what style of play is most successful in 8 ball, and was the only way to win, to play like my opponent?
Click to expand...

We used to play 8-ball every day, 24/7/365, where I used to shoot. There was a group of us called the "Pool Crowd," as opposed to the Cardiac Corner where the senior citizens would hang, the "Bar Tabbers," where the regulars would run tabs drinking pitchers of beer all day. Well, you get the picture.

Because we played each other all the time, we knew each other's strengths and weaknesses in pool. We would tailor our game to that person's strength and weakness. I was a great breaker, but banks were my weakness. So I'd get left banks. :p

If I was playing a strong player, I'd be playing safeties left and right, but I tried not to make it obvoius. It was Honest Effort where we played -- safeties not allowed. You had to get pretty creative to come with a miss and leave your opponent in jail. :grin-square:

If I was playing a weak player, like a young person who couldn't shoot at all, I would give them a few shots. I would not run the table out on them. :)

I guess I played offensive and defensive, and I based my game on my opponent. If it was a stranger, I was in it to win it, and I'd run out like a champ, if possible, taking no prisoners. :eek:
 
Pidge said:
Played the last match of the current season in my 8 ball league on Monday and was left with having to win my match to have a flawless season. I found out the guy I was playing was in the bottom half of the standing having lost more than he had won. I assumed it was a dead cert I was going to win...I lost.

The reason? He had a stupidly good knowledge of 8 ball safety play. I've entered every match this season with the mentality that attack would win me more games than I would lose, and when I played safe choosing to play an aggressive safety would be better than playing a passive safety. Thus far, playing ultra attacking 8 ball has won me 22 matches and lost 1. This guy played ultra passive. Make a ball (lose position, or so I thought. Now I think about it I think he purposely played position not to run out, but to make the inevitable upcoming safe shot easier), play safe, leave me with nothing, and either get ball in hand or left wide open. We could have played 50 games and he would have beaten me atleast 3:1. I had no answer to it. Attack was not going to win me that match. And I take my hat off to the guy, he used what he was good at to full advantage.

So my question is - what style of play is most successful in 8 ball, and was the only way to win, to play like my opponent?
Click to expand...

My adivce in this situation, learn to kick and/or jump better :grin-square:
 
hang-the-9 said:
My adivce in this situation, learn to kick and/or jump better :grin-square:
Click to expand...
Jumps aren't allowed in the league due to some pool hall owners being whiney bitc... You get the idea.

I was kicking like a kangaroo but couldn't make anything. Trapped in a corner with no easy kick. Atleast 3 rails to stand a chance of making a ball. At one point I did have a full ball shot at a ball with no pot on. All I could think was "logic says that if I hit this hard enough it will eventually go in, even if its 10 years down the line". I smashed the crap out of it with my break cue and left my self a nice little cluster. Last time I listen to the voices in my head :(
 
I play alot of 8 ball and play a guy like that. He is a good shooter but will start out with safeties and more safeties etc. I told him eventually you have to run out or lose. Only so many safeties you can play. So when I play him I shoot safeties for the first couple of shots. I try to leave my ball set up for the eventual run out but for the first couple I play safeties and of course he does as well; but I find out when i do this he messes up his safeties and leaves me a shot so I can run out. He is a great safety master unless somebody is doing that to him then he screws it up. Go figure.
 
Pidge said:
Jumps aren't allowed in the league due to some pool hall owners being whiney bitc... You get the idea.

I was kicking like a kangaroo but couldn't make anything. Trapped in a corner with no easy kick. Atleast 3 rails to stand a chance of making a ball. At one point I did have a full ball shot at a ball with no pot on. All I could think was "logic says that if I hit this hard enough it will eventually go in, even if its 10 years down the line". I smashed the crap out of it with my break cue and left my self a nice little cluster. Last time I listen to the voices in my head :(
Click to expand...

Any strategy that only employees one way of thinking is flawed. To truly play the game at a high level you need to be equally skilled in both offense and defense. Sure you might outrun the nuts playing only offense several times, but when you come across someone who knows what they are doing they will own you.
Try learning the theory to playing successful Blackjack (or holdem for that matter) and apply that logic to your pool game and you will quickly realize what it means to play the odds and how it can benefit you.

BTW, are you any relation to PushPool?
 
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Cdryden said:
Any strategy that only employees one way of thinking is flawed. To truly play the game at a high level you need to be equally skilled in both offense and defense. Sure you might outrun the nuts playing only offense several times, but when you come across someone who knows what they are doing they will own you.
Try learning the theory to playing successful Blackjack (or holdem for that matter) and apply that logic to your pool game and you will quickly realize what it means to play the odds and how it can benefit you.

BTW, are you any relation to PushPool?
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I play poker for a living, so I kinda see your point. He nailed me into the ground because all I wanted to do was win the last match. My focus was entirely on running out and that was obviously a mistake. My aim should have been to get ball in hand and then run out. That is how I normally approach a game with similar dynamics and it had won me the previous 22 matches. The occasion got the better of me I think. Always next season.
 
Pidge said:
I couldn't have made this into a war with this guy.

...he put me is 6 consecutive snookers.
...he pots and easy spot, and leaves his self with a cluster of 3
...he got me stuck between cusion and the 3 ball cluster every damn time...
Click to expand...

He obviously plays better than you do.
 
Pidge said:
"logic says that if I hit this hard enough it will eventually go in, even if its 10 years down the line".
Click to expand...

You are not the 1st person from over the pond to say this lately. In my opinion this logic is severely flawed.
If you could hit it hard enough and if the ball was light enough and if the cloth was slick enough and if the rails were bouncy enough and if physics didn't exist on a pool table of course you would be right. But in reality, this is a bad idea.

But hey, bet it up. I'm sure you will find those that appreciate it.
 
Pidge said:
I play poker for a living, so I kinda see your point. He nailed me into the ground because all I wanted to do was win the last match. My focus was entirely on running out and that was obviously a mistake. My aim should have been to get ball in hand and then run out. That is how I normally approach a game with similar dynamics and it had won me the previous 22 matches. The occasion got the better of me I think. Always next season.
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I think you lost and will continue to loose because of your view of how the game should be played. You think that it is successful because you won 22 times that way. I would imagine that the other 22 opponents were also lacking in strategic thinking or just simply unskilled players.

I have to admit I am surprised to hear you say that you are a professional poker player with this type of mentality.
 
Break up the cluster, or pin his balls to the rail by carom or foul. Chang the table. If all
someone has is defense, take it away.
 
Cdryden said:
I think you lost and will continue to loose because of your view of how the game should be played. You think that it is successful because you won 22 times that way. I would imagine that the other 22 opponents were also lacking in strategic thinking or just simply unskilled players.

I have to admit I am surprised to hear you say that you are a professional poker player with this type of mentality.
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20 years ago poker probably favoured the 'thinkers' and the 'its a marathon not a sprint' type people, but today it favours the aggressor, the initiator and the brave. Especially in online heads up NL Holdem which I play 80 percent of the time. So don't be suprised, be the type of person that passively puts people down and always thinks they're right on an online pool forum...wait.
 
That defense first strategy in 8ball only takes you so far. Eventually you get to the level of play where someone is going to regularly come with a tremendous shot, break balls open and run out. Especially on a bar table, especially playing slop counts, you will see good players kick a ball in and then immediately play a shot that opens the balls up and the defensive player is left holding the rack shaking his head as to his last opportunity where he played passive.
 
Safety play works for me. I have a decent 8ball break and can usually get 5 or 6 balls up table with a decent spread. If I can run it out, I will. If there are too many clusters and I'll start making a mess if I run it, then I look for a shot to hook my opponent.
 
Once you get to the point where you realize your opponent is going to play smart - you are usually already at a disadvantage because you are giving him ball in hand, he has control etc... In leagues where the races are very short that can be a disaster.

So if you can't get control back through kicking or waiting for him to make a mistake you have to look at the table as a set of tools you both have to work with.

Then you have to make your tools better and take away his good tools either by moving them or removing them.

If he has easily pocketable balls and you're kicking. Don't be afraid to shoot his straight in and nudge one of yours in front of the pocket. Or nudge his into unplayable clusters on the opposite side of the table from your hanging balls. Makes it harder for him to keep you from returning a tough shot or even making your balls.

If you have a couple of kicks or kick safes that you are really good at, try to get him to put you in one of those. I had a league match one time where I had a kick shot that I KNEW once my opponent gave it to me I would make it win from there. But my opponent was an OSF and he kept playing safe. So I kept kicking at a certain cluster and missing (on purpose), knowing that he would keep trying to break out his balls and keep me kicking at that cluster - which contained one of each group - hoping I would hit it and open up his last ball and he would have an easy out. Eventually though, I knew he would have to give me the kick that I knew before I had to hit that cluster. No 3 foul rule btw.

Eventually he left me the kick. He had made most of his balls so he had only the one in the cluster. I made the kick. Played a shot to get on the right side of the cluster, then froze the CB to my ball in the cluster and moved his out to another rail. With ball in hand I easily ran out. I lulled him to sleep kicking at and missing the same cluster. He thought I was stupid and kicked poorly because I usually play full offense in that league. He got overconfident and had no idea how well I actually do kick. By the time he figured out that I turned the tables on him...it was too late.

Hard to do and that is probably the only time it's worked that well for me, but the point is you have to be creative and not be afraid to move the balls around (his and yours) to your advantage.
 
Pidge said:
20 years ago poker probably favoured the 'thinkers' and the 'its a marathon not a sprint' type people, but today it favours the aggressor, the initiator and the brave. Especially in online heads up NL Holdem which I play 80 percent of the time. So don't be suprised, be the type of person that passively puts people down and always thinks they're right on an online pool forum...wait.
Click to expand...

I'm thinking that you are playing the same people in poker that you are in pool. Aggressive style is rewarding it's true, but it must be tempered with the wisdom of when to lay it down. Same for pool, knowing that you can't always go for it and to play the odds is how players survive the long hauls, especially against people who think as you do. Easy pickings for the most part. I guess PT Barnum was right.
 
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