Bogus Ball..from the start

BANKS, I totally agree with you. That is just what a tv cable wants to buy,a program nobody wants to watch! What a joke. I guess not all people can understand 5 grade math and business.
Poker is popular on tv because of the large amounts of money in play.Every successful show has some hook that the masses like.BB has no hook.
 
alstl said:
I'm not familiar with all the details but my impression was they creator of the thing was hoping it would work...
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sopadre said:
BANKS, I totally agree with you. That is just what a tv cable wants to buy,a program nobody wants to watch! What a joke. I guess not all people can understand 5 grade math and business.
Poker is popular on tv because of the large amounts of money in play.Every successful show has some hook that the masses like.BB has no hook.
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So that's the answer, Bonus Ball needs to put the money on the light. Have the camera pan to the stacks of cash, show the players looking at it, make them talk about it.......
 
JB CASES,you may be on to something here.Give the public a fast easy to understand gambling pool game[ I suggest 9 ball], have entertaining personalities competing[ Jimmy M, Keith M, Alex, Scooter,etc]and show bundles of money changing hands after every game. Gambling,tons of money ,and exciting players could appeal to a lot of people.Those are the 3 things that made poker a hit.
 
JB Cases said:
Nothing has the potential?

How about we do a math experiment?

Bonus Ball gets picked up by a cable channel who agrees to buy 40 weeks. it gets popular and people across America start playing. Bonus ball leagues sprout across the land and within 12 months there are 2 million bb players shipping $10 to bb central every week. In the space of 12 months with exposure bb does what the APA didn't achieve in 20 years.

But the reality is that one company went ahead with the idea and that cue has sold tens of thousand of units and spawned a general billiard supplies business that combined has generated on the order of 30 million dollars so far. And they aren't even the biggest player in the space.
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You have them being 8 times more popular than the largest league in history, and shipping back like 400% more.

If someone tried to sell me, as an investor, using any example remotely similar to what you gave,
I would feel like people were attempting to con me. This is well beyond unlikely and into the realm of
"never gonna happen", and you know it. This is a fraud case waiting to happen.

I mean, it's fine if you want to make the point that something in the pool world could pay an investor back,
but stuff like the above hurts your case, it doesn't prove your point in the least.

The laser cue example sounds a little more promising. So do you know what the investor(s) poured into it,
and what they got back?
 
Just in the news a week ago, Trudeau was on the front page of the Chicago Tribune. The article mentioned that he was at the end of his years-long ploys to avoid prosecution and more prison time. They have the evidence to put him away, they say. Time will tell. The article, of course, mentioned nothing about his former association with pro pool.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

alstl said:
I'm not familiar with all the details but my impression was they creator of the thing was hoping it would work.

Maybe I'm naive. I thought Trudeau's IPT was created with the intention of making it work because of internet gambling which congress then made illegal which subsequently ruined his business plan. Not a comment on Trudeau's other activities but his plan could have worked if the internet gambling had remained legal.

Again, maybe I'm naive.
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CreeDo said:
You have them being 8 times more popular than the largest league in history, and shipping back like 400% more.

If someone tried to sell me, as an investor, using any example remotely similar to what you gave,
I would feel like people were attempting to con me. This is well beyond unlikely and into the realm of
"never gonna happen", and you know it. This is a fraud case waiting to happen.

I mean, it's fine if you want to make the point that something in the pool world could pay an investor back,
but stuff like the above hurts your case, it doesn't prove your point in the least.

The laser cue example sounds a little more promising. So do you know what the investor(s) poured into it,
and what they got back?
Click to expand...

As a matter of fact I do know about the laser cue, www.cuesight.com (latest sponsorships, the Billiard Education Fund and the World 14.1)

As for the hypothetical I posted, well I could point to the two movies that resulted in thousands of new pool rooms and millions of new players. I could also point to the WPT and the resulting poker boom that was sparked by it.

I could point to the demographics by steering the money people to the Cue Gallery section where people proudly show off their multi-thousand dollar cues and their Ferarris.

And I could point them to the existing leagues which already service about 300,000 players despite almost zero national advertising. In fact I could use the APA and their advertising which has been almost exclusively on WPBA broadcasts and say, good people with money to invest what if we took this league and super sized it?

Let's be very honest here, we have all seen the stupidest possible ideas funded for millions to deca millions.

So no, I don't agree that it's out of the realm of reality to think that the pitch could be in part based on the establishment of national leagues. Far fetched maybe but certainly a possibility. Personally I think it's more geared towards providing content that a network is willing to pay for and sell advertsing against.

And to add, the UFC in 2001 was 44 million in DEBT. Then Dana White took over and turned it all around despite the fact that at that time the UFC was banned in 33 states and John McCain was trying to outlaw it completely. The UFC also had to pay for all the tv production of Ultimate Fighter and didn't even know if the network they had a deal with would even show it. In other words they took a broken model that was technically bankrupt and turned it into what it is now doing something like 200 million a year.

If you guys don't think that there aren't people out there willing to thrown down a few million for the right pitch then you don't have much experience in that part of life. People who invest don't only pick the safe plays, they sometimes, in fact often are taking a decent risk with the idea that if it goes bad then they lost a few million but if it rocks then they gained in multiples not available from "safe" investments.

When Google bought YouTube people said it was a terrible buy and YouTube continued to lose money for a few years until Google figured out how to monetize it.

Go take a look on KickStarter and Indiegogo to see what people are willing to invest in. Some of those projects ask for $20,000 and get $300,000. One of them asked for $100,000 and got 10 million.

Point being that honestly NO ONE here knows what's happening with Bonus Ball any more than you are privy to the APA's decisions, or Mark's or anyone's.

The easiest thing in the world is say something will never happen. The hardest thing is to imagine what the world would be like if it did. That requires a positive outlook and some mental cheerleading for those that dare to try.
 
I get why the conservative, shrewd business types say BB is a bad business model. It's like 'field of dreams', and all of your experiences and training tell you that you never 'build it and they will come'. Sound business sense tells you that organic, grass roots start up's are to be ramped up over time just like Accu-Stats, TAR and many other successful organizations have done in the past. You NEVER accept a day-to-day loss in profit for a blue sky dream. All business decisions have to make tangible business sense. You never be wasteful.

I understand why these folks are BB detractors since it has an impact on their business, especially scheduling.

What I don't understand is why any non-business concern fan would ever be a detractor?

I'm a creative dreamer, and in my department it's required to do my work. But you have to balance dreams with reality. Sometimes this is referred to as intelligent risk taking. You first have to decide if you are going to dip your toe in the water or dive in. And how far you go with blue sky is an indication of how much of a risk taker you are.

Many pool players live in a constant dream state and so it's easy to pitch them into just about anything as long as your idea agrees with their dream. They are gamblers and risk takers. And they see honor and give respect to a man willing to take a large financial risk on his dream of bonus ball.

So I ask this to all the business folks who have been such staunch detractors, other than your schedules, which it sounds like BB is addressing, do you have any other complaints?

Those who do not have a business issue need not reply..
 
JB Cases said:
As a matter of fact I do know about the laser cue, www.cuesight.com (latest sponsorships, the Billiard Education Fund and the World 14.1)

As for the hypothetical I posted, well I could point to the two movies that resulted in thousands of new pool rooms and millions of new players. I could also point to the WPT and the resulting poker boom that was sparked by it.

I could point to the demographics by steering the money people to the Cue Gallery section where people proudly show off their multi-thousand dollar cues and their Ferarris.

And I could point them to the existing leagues which already service about 300,000 players despite almost zero national advertising. In fact I could use the APA and their advertising which has been almost exclusively on WPBA broadcasts and say, good people with money to invest what if we took this league and super sized it?

Let's be very honest here, we have all seen the stupidest possible ideas funded for millions to deca millions.

So no, I don't agree that it's out of the realm of reality to think that the pitch could be in part based on the establishment of national leagues. Far fetched maybe but certainly a possibility. Personally I think it's more geared towards providing content that a network is willing to pay for and sell advertsing against.

And to add, the UFC in 2001 was 44 million in DEBT. Then Dana White took over and turned it all around despite the fact that at that time the UFC was banned in 33 states and John McCain was trying to outlaw it completely. The UFC also had to pay for all the tv production of Ultimate Fighter and didn't even know if the network they had a deal with would even show it. In other words they took a broken model that was technically bankrupt and turned it into what it is now doing something like 200 million a year.

If you guys don't think that there aren't people out there willing to thrown down a few million for the right pitch then you don't have much experience in that part of life. People who invest don't only pick the safe plays, they sometimes, in fact often are taking a decent risk with the idea that if it goes bad then they lost a few million but if it rocks then they gained in multiples not available from "safe" investments.

When Google bought YouTube people said it was a terrible buy and YouTube continued to lose money for a few years until Google figured out how to monetize it.

Go take a look on KickStarter and Indiegogo to see what people are willing to invest in. Some of those projects ask for $20,000 and get $300,000. One of them asked for $100,000 and got 10 million.

Point being that honestly NO ONE here knows what's happening with Bonus Ball any more than you are privy to the APA's decisions, or Mark's or anyone's.

The easiest thing in the world is say something will never happen. The hardest thing is to imagine what the world would be like if it did. That requires a positive outlook and some mental cheerleading for those that dare to try.
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Good post. I enjoy watching the game (even though I will probably never play it myself), and probably more so than regular tournaments where there is zero human interaction and I know pretty much how the players are going to try and run out. The team format and new strategies (and sometimes lack thereof) involved increase the entertainment value for me personally.

I see a ton of negativity towards the game on this forum and it does not make a whole lot of sense to me. I understand other promoters being upset because Bonus Ball is threatening their livelihood, but a disproportionately high number of pool fans are trouncing the attempt on here as well. I am going to have to chalk that mentality up to a combination of group think on message boards and being so used to failure and lack of a tour that it has become the status quo and anything outside of that is met with cynicism.

To be clear, I am not saying that Bonus Ball is going to be a success. What I am saying is that their is no good reason for pool fans to knock it until their is actually a reason to. The fact that there are people out there trying to make this a go of this is a good thing. Even if it has hiccups or doesn't work out.
 
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Nevermiss,BB assured the players they were financed for 2 years,they required the players to move to LV , they promised to pay the players every MONDAY,BUT they quit paying the players after 1 week.The players are stuck with 2 months expenses plus over 5 k in backpay already.This is just one of many reasons why many players and their friends are upset with BOGUS BALL.There are enough red flags by now to wake up the players to abandon the sinking ship before it gets worse.
 
nevermiss said:
Good post. I enjoy watching the game (even though I will probably never play it myself), and probably more so than regular tournaments where there is zero human interaction and I know pretty much how the players are going to try and run out. The team format and new strategies (and sometimes lack thereof) involved increase the entertainment value for me personally.

I see a ton of negativity towards the game on this forum and it does not make a whole lot of sense to me. I understand other promoters being upset because Bonus Ball is threatening their livelihood, but a disproportionately high number of pool fans are trouncing the attempt on here as well. I am going to have to chalk that mentality up to a combination of group think on message boards and being so used to failure and lack of a tour that it has become the status quo and anything outside of that is met with cynicism.

To be clear, I am not saying that Bonus Ball is going to be a success. What I am saying is that their is no good reason for pool fans to knock it until their is actually a reason to. The fact that there are people out there trying to make this a go of this is a good thing. Even if it has hiccups or doesn't work out.
Click to expand...

The promoters livelihood was never an issue. The players livelihood is.

Whenever you schedule events on top of other events that the Players would normally attend you are making the Players choose instead of being able to play both. There was never a need to squash other opportunities for the Players.

This goes for ALL events. You work together for the benefit of the players not the promoters.

Ray
 
JB Cases said:
As a matter of fact I do know about the laser cue, www.cuesight.com (latest sponsorships, the Billiard Education Fund and the World 14.1)

As for the hypothetical I posted, well I could point to the two movies that resulted in thousands of new pool rooms and millions of new players. I could also point to the WPT and the resulting poker boom that was sparked by it.

I could point to the demographics by steering the money people to the Cue Gallery section where people proudly show off their multi-thousand dollar cues and their Ferarris.

And I could point them to the existing leagues which already service about 300,000 players despite almost zero national advertising. In fact I could use the APA and their advertising which has been almost exclusively on WPBA broadcasts and say, good people with money to invest what if we took this league and super sized it?

Let's be very honest here, we have all seen the stupidest possible ideas funded for millions to deca millions.

So no, I don't agree that it's out of the realm of reality to think that the pitch could be in part based on the establishment of national leagues. Far fetched maybe but certainly a possibility. Personally I think it's more geared towards providing content that a network is willing to pay for and sell advertsing against.

And to add, the UFC in 2001 was 44 million in DEBT. Then Dana White took over and turned it all around despite the fact that at that time the UFC was banned in 33 states and John McCain was trying to outlaw it completely. The UFC also had to pay for all the tv production of Ultimate Fighter and didn't even know if the network they had a deal with would even show it. In other words they took a broken model that was technically bankrupt and turned it into what it is now doing something like 200 million a year.

If you guys don't think that there aren't people out there willing to thrown down a few million for the right pitch then you don't have much experience in that part of life. People who invest don't only pick the safe plays, they sometimes, in fact often are taking a decent risk with the idea that if it goes bad then they lost a few million but if it rocks then they gained in multiples not available from "safe" investments.

When Google bought YouTube people said it was a terrible buy and YouTube continued to lose money for a few years until Google figured out how to monetize it.

Go take a look on KickStarter and Indiegogo to see what people are willing to invest in. Some of those projects ask for $20,000 and get $300,000. One of them asked for $100,000 and got 10 million.

Point being that honestly NO ONE here knows what's happening with Bonus Ball any more than you are privy to the APA's decisions, or Mark's or anyone's.

The easiest thing in the world is say something will never happen. The hardest thing is to imagine what the world would be like if it did. That requires a positive outlook and some mental cheerleading for those that dare to try.
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Your UFC story is incorrect.

Oh and still I know the players have not been paid yet. After a couple of "Its on the way" promises. Word on the street is more than a few players have laid down a walk away date for payment. No pay by X no more play the ball of bonus.

Everyone understands the point you are trying to make John. There are rich people who will take flyers. We get it. Honest.
 
So why isn't there an ABP press release addressing this?

3-5 week's pay x 30-some-odd players = at least as much as the US Open payouts, doesn't it? At least its close, I would surmise.
 
Nostroke, don't hold your breath for BB mgt to explain anything.They are still trying to figure out how to spin this into an exit.
 
sopadre said:
Nevermiss,BB assured the players they were financed for 2 years,they required the players to move to LV , they promised to pay the players every MONDAY,BUT they quit paying the players after 1 week.The players are stuck with 2 months expenses plus over 5 k in backpay already.This is just one of many reasons why many players and their friends are upset with BOGUS BALL.There are enough red flags by now to wake up the players to abandon the sinking ship before it gets worse.
Click to expand...

I am not privy to the detail of the negotiations between the players and the WPBL or what the WPBL's business plan was/is, but this seems less black and white to me. Firstly, the players should have realized that there was some inherent risk to signing onto a startup like this. New businesses fail all of the time, and frankly, in a general sense, the same exact thing happened with Trudeau and the IPT- so I find it hard to understand how a player would go into the situation without some skepticism. Secondly, if the players were not willing to take on that sort of risk, they should have either passed or made sure that some sort of structure was in place to guarantee their payment.

The WPBL is not without fault in this because they obviously are in the wrong if they made said promises and stopped delivering after only a week, but the players took on some of the risk too when they chose to work for this enterprise whether they had the foresight to see it or not. In the real world, there are plenty of interns working for free and guys getting paid shit wages at startups while they are trying establish themselves. Many of these companies sink and some of them swim. That is just the way it is. Anyways, as a pool fan, I do feel bad that professionals cannot make a living at the game, but if they do not like it they can always do something else.

Bigtruck said:
The promoters livelihood was never an issue. The players livelihood is.

Whenever you schedule events on top of other events that the Players would normally attend you are making the Players choose instead of being able to play both. There was never a need to squash other opportunities for the Players.

This goes for ALL events. You work together for the benefit of the players not the promoters.

Ray
Click to expand...

I am not sure that the promoters livelihood was not at least some part of the equation. If Bonus Ball were a success, I think that it would definitely take a bite out of other events. Regardless, it appeared that the players committed 100% to the WPBL to make a go of getting a regular paycheck and more stable life, and I cannot blame them for that. But as mentioned above, there was obviously risk involved on the players' end in becoming involved in a new business like this. If they were willing to commit so much to it, they should have taken some time to prepare themselves for the reality that it might not work out and gone into things with both eyes open.
 
nevermiss said:
I am not privy to the detail of the negotiations between the players and the WPBL or what the WPBL's business plan was/is, but this seems less black and white to me. Firstly, the players should have realized that there was some inherent risk to signing onto a startup like this. New businesses fail all of the time, and frankly, in a general sense, the same exact thing happened with Trudeau and the IPT- so I find it hard to understand how a player would go into the situation without some skepticism. Secondly, if the players were not willing to take on that sort of risk, they should have either passed or made sure that some sort of structure was in place to guarantee their payment.

The WPBL is not without fault in this because they obviously are in the wrong if they made said promises and stopped delivering after only a week, but the players took on some of the risk too when they chose to work for this enterprise whether they had the foresight to see it or not. In the real world, there are plenty of interns working for free and guys getting paid shit wages at startups while they are trying establish themselves. Many of these companies sink and some of them swim. That is just the way it is. Anyways, as a pool fan, I do feel bad that professionals cannot make a living at the game, but if they do not like it they can always do something else.
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Here is the KEY word, "signing". If the players had contracts they might have something to fall back on here.

There were red flags all over this from the beginning. Hopefully it was at least a learning experience for them.

Ray
 
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BB blamed a lot of their problems on the construction crews building BB studio.If that is true,how do you get evicted out of your own building? Based on all the other facts we now know, my guess is BB slow paid the workers and they wouldn't work until they got paid.That is what caused the several months delay in the building.
Another half truth from BB. Do they own the building[ which caused the delay,but the eviction doesn't make sense then] or do they rent[the eviction makes sense,but the delay story is false]?
"You can't cure stupid"
 
If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it may just be a duck! :grin:
You can figure out the rest for yourself. I already did a long time ago.
 
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