Skid

lfigueroa said:
I think we've all lost matches because of skid. I know I have.

But it's *not the balls.* It's the chalk.

Lou Figueroa
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So then maybe the best way to play is to clean the balls between racks. Maybe John Schmidt has a point after all although I am sure you have a very good comeback here.

As in what about having two sets of balls? Switch them out every rack.

After all in Tennis the players can reject the balls and they go through several cans of balls in a match.

For sure the cue ball should be cleaned before every break then.
 
lfigueroa said:
No. We are all not in agreement.

Lou Figueroa
about much
of anything
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Then what it is it? If you say it's the chalk what does chalk do? It increases friction. What is contact induced throw? It is the balls clinging together for an instant and moving as one unit. So if you INCREASE that with chalk because that's what chalk is designed to do then skid is simply a larger amount of CIT.

If you're not in agreement with that then please explain why not.
 
Maybe the Cylclop balls pick up dirt, powder, and chalk dust more than other balls which would make them skid more. Easy enough to tell with a microscope. Johnnyt
 
SloMoHolic said:
Thanks KC! I think the key to skid is that there is enough friction to actually drive the OB into the slate and make it hop. That blew my mind when I first saw it in SloMo.



Thanks, Rick, it is my pleasure to share these videos with my buddies online.



Absolutely! In fact, I would venture to say that skid is nothing more than an enhanced version of vertical CIT. I did some shots in that video session with outside, and draw, and never got any skid. I think it only happens with a rolling or top-spinning cue ball. With inside English, I did see some skid, but only at a certain speed, I'd say between 3 to 4 out of 10. There seems to be a sweet spot (speed-wise) for getting skid with inside. Any harder or slower, and it just doesn't "catch" like it does with a Naturally Rolling CB.



No worries, all of my gear is portable, and most pool halls are willing to let me set up shop. You will still see many new videos, although they will not come out as quickly in response to requests.

I really believe that skid happens when the difference between the CB surface speed and OB surface (stationary) is just above zero, and only with some amount of top spin on the CB. In other words, if I put too much inside, it seems to slide right past the OB, and there is no skid. I only experience skid at relatively slower speeds, and only with relatively gentle amounts of spin.

Thanks for the positive comments. I'll do my best to continue to demonstrate certain shots and help us all understand pool as much as possible.

-Blake
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Blake,

I agree with what you say about skid. The odd & bad thing about it is you can hit a shot with say top inside at a certain speed & not get or at least notice any skid even if you actually may have gotten some because you made the ball. Then you can hit what you think is very nearly the same shot & get & see the skid because you missed the ball. Something was just that bit different to cause it.

It is kind of like the Bermuda Triangle & you're flying along the edge. On one side you're okay but cross that line & bam, all of your instruments go berserk & you crash.

I'm glad to hear you will be continuing with the Slow-mos. They are like Frosted Flakes, They're Great!

Best Regards & Wishes,
Rick
 
What about stroke?

I thought I've heard/read/saw somewhere that a person's stroke can add to the probability of a skid. Has anyone else heard/read/saw/experienced this?

I'm not sure if it was something with the mechanics of the stroke, or if it was stroke speed/style where a player shot at speeds in which the cue ball would more often change from skidding to rolling near moment of contact.

Or am I just crazy?
 
JB Cases said:
I can say this about cue balls. I noticed that they are all different when I was selling jump cues. At one point I noticed that with one of them I could barely jump while with most of the others it was no problem. So I started weighing them and marking them with a sharpie to distinguish between them. I have long lost those balls and the notes I made about them but I can tell you that with the wrong ball a jump cue can look like a complete dud.

People always say it's not arrows but the indian but that is nonsense. Any variation in equipment HAS to have a different reaction, that's simple physics.
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John,

Yeah, that's why I get a bit perturbed when someone says something like, 'well yes but it is insignificant'.

Any difference can be significant. How significant would a little gust of wind be from the wrong direction when diving from 90 feet?

My two years of high school & two semesters of college physics tells me
how much a very small difference can effect the outcome. Some just don't want to admit some things because they don't want to have to take them into consideration. So they just call them insignificant & avoid the stress. That's their choice but they should not say something does not exist or that it is insignificant.

The reality is the physics of the situation but all of the parameters must be considered in order to 'real eyes' the true reality. If not, then the conclusion is flawed.

Best Regards & Wishes,
Rick
 
JB Cases said:
So then maybe the best way to play is to clean the balls between racks. Maybe John Schmidt has a point after all although I am sure you have a very good comeback here.

As in what about having two sets of balls? Switch them out every rack.

After all in Tennis the players can reject the balls and they go through several cans of balls in a match.

For sure the cue ball should be cleaned before every break then.
Click to expand...


That would be a totally different discussion. Pass.

Lou Figueroa
for the time being :-)
 
Diamond69 said:
What about stroke?

I thought I've heard/read/saw somewhere that a person's stroke can add to the probability of a skid. Has anyone else heard/read/saw/experienced this?

I'm not sure if it was something with the mechanics of the stroke, or if it was stroke speed/style where a player shot at speeds in which the cue ball would more often change from skidding to rolling near moment of contact.

Or am I just crazy?
Click to expand...

If there is a tendency to put a little inside english on a soft cut shot that might enhance the chances of skid since the CB isn't rolling off the OB but rubbing it a bit more. I think this would be most likely with high inside at a very soft to medium soft speed when the balls are not polished.

The high english could grab the OB and put the opposite (draw) on the OB which would pull the OB back together with the CB for just a fraction of a second as the CB rubs by the OB causing them to cling together for just a spit second.

But actually the mere rolling of the CB past the OB at a slow speed is enough to cause the OB to rotate backwards for a fraction of a second even without the high since at that slow speed there isn't much if any over spin anyway on the CB.

I say high because with the CB sliding without roll using center ball into the OB or drag drawing into the OB I don't think there is much chance of cling and skid, so an above center hit allows the CB to forward roll and that is what can cause the backward roll on the OB while the inside prevents the CB from rolling off the OB on the horizontal axis.

If this is the type stroke a certain player uses on these cut shots at low speed, then I'd say yes this stroke can add to the problem of skid.
 
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Johnnyt said:
Maybe the Cylclop balls pick up dirt, powder, and chalk dust more than other balls which would make them skid more. Easy enough to tell with a microscope. Johnnyt
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If we will note in the interview, Mr. Wang made a comment about a perception regarding the weight & his statement was basically that the balls were bouncier than the diamonds & that is why they seem to play like a different weight.

The bottom line is that they ARE different & you may well be correct.
 
JB Cases said:
Then what it is it? If you say it's the chalk what does chalk do? It increases friction. What is contact induced throw? It is the balls clinging together for an instant and moving as one unit. So if you INCREASE that with chalk because that's what chalk is designed to do then skid is simply a larger amount of CIT.

If you're not in agreement with that then please explain why not.
Click to expand...


John said "please." (I think Im going to faint.)

I've explained it as best I can. Any further and I'd be beyond Pool Physics 101. We need a Bob Jewett or Dr. Dave or other qualified propeller head to step in for a coherent and scientifically rooted explanation. I defer to them.

Lou Figueroa
 
Johnnyt said:
Maybe the Cylclop balls pick up dirt, powder, and chalk dust more than other balls which would make them skid more. Easy enough to tell with a microscope. Johnnyt
Click to expand...


I suppose anything is possible, but the Cyclop balls are supposed to be harder and smoother, so that would indicate they are less likely to have chalk adhere to them.

Lou Figueroa
 
Diamond69 said:
I did see it. But other's thanking him for the video should not prevent me from thanking as well. Especially since I was the one who requested the video.
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Sorry for my miscommunication.

That was not my point. I would never suggest that someone should not thank someone regardless of how many others have done so.

My point was that we were discussing factors other than just chalk being the cause for skids.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
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3andstop said:
If there is a tendency to put a little inside english on a soft cut shot that might enhance the chances of skid since the CB isn't rolling off the OB but rubbing it a bit more. I think this would be most likely with high inside at a very soft to medium soft speed when the balls are not polished.

The high english could grab the OB and put the opposite (draw) on the OB which would pull the OB back together with the CB for just a fraction of a second as the CB rubs by the OB causing them to cling together for just a spit second.

But actually the mere rolling of the CB past the OB at a slow speed is enough to cause the OB to rotate backwards for a fraction of a second even without the high since at that slow speed there isn't much if any over spin anyway on the CB.

I say high because with the CB sliding without roll using center ball into the OB or drag drawing into the OB I don't think there is much chance of cling and skid, so an above center hit allows the CB to forward roll and that is what can cause the backward roll on the OB while the inside prevents the CB from rolling off the OB on the horizontal axis.

If this is the type stroke a certain player uses on these cut shots at low speed, then I'd say yes this stroke can add to the problem of skid.
Click to expand...


I think many of us, who have played for many years, have an intuitive feeling that certain shots and cut angles are likely to skid. For me, it's usually a medium speed cut shot with follow, with about a foot or two between the CB and OB, and a cut angle of around 20 degrees. (Don't know that I've ever gotten skid on a draw shot...)

On those days that I'm tuned into awareness about potential skid, I'll usually play shots like that a little firmer to avoid the skid.

Lou Figueroa
 
ENGLISH! said:
Sorry for my miscommunication.

That was not my point. I would never suggest that someone should not thank someone regardless of many others have done so.

My point was that we were discussing factors other than just chalk being the cause for skids.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
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Thanks for clarifying Rick. I was admiring your other posts points and came across that one and thought "What the ....? Glad it wasn't meant that way.

Back to the discussion.
 
lfigueroa said:
I think many of us, who have played for many years, have an intuitive feeling that certain shots and cut angles are likely to skid. For me, it's usually a medium speed cut shot with follow, with about a foot or two between the CB and OB, and a cut angle of around 20 degrees. (Don't know that I've ever gotten skid on a draw shot...)

On those days that I'm tuned into awareness about potential skid, I'll usually play shots like that a little firmer to avoid the skid.

Lou Figueroa
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Oh, so you know which shots are going to have chalk at the contact point? I mean the skid should potentially be there on every cut shot shouldn't it? If a skid is caused by chalk at the contact point that is.

No chalk no skid, isn't that what you told Chris earlier?
 
ENGLISH! said:
If we will note in the interview, Mr. Wang made a comment about a perception regarding the weight & his statement was basically that the balls were bouncier than the diamonds & that is why they seem to play like a different weight.

The bottom line is that they ARE different & you may well be correct.
Click to expand...


I believe he says that some players thought the balls were lighter, when they are not. He said the balls react faster, which I take to mean they have a greater COR.

In any case, ball sets -- like Centennials, Super Pro, Duramith, from the same manufacturer -- all play a little different from each other. Even similar sets, from pool room to pool room, are going to be different from age and care. Gotta be able to adjust.

Lou Figueroa
 
JB Cases said:
Oh, so you know which shots are going to have chalk at the contact point? I mean the skid should potentially be there on every cut shot shouldn't it? If a skid is caused by chalk at the contact point that is.

No chalk no skid, isn't that what you told Chris earlier?
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I said it was an intuitive feeling for potential skid. I think the probability for skid is higher for the type of shot I described, as opposed to a longer shot, or steeper cut angle, or draw. Just relating my experience.

Lou Figueroa
 
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