Skid

[3andstop]

I still don't understand.

If skid is just greater throw than expected then how does it occur?

I would not define skid as greater throw than expected, it is as I tried to explain in the prior post regarding rotational motion vs directional motion of the colliding balls and the result of what happens when the rotational motion is first to act on the OB before the OB takes on directional motion.

 

[vasilios]

I still don't understand.

If skid is just greater throw than expected then how does it occur?

I mean we have one set of folks who say it's ONLY caused by debris, mostly chalk that, allows the balls to cling together for an instant longer than planned for, and another set of folks who say it can happen with perfectly clean balls.

My thought is that in the first instance there is no way on the planet that anyone would ever be able to reliably predict that the contact would have a piece of chalk or something else that would cause a skid.

And in the second instance then it's not skid if it's simply a miscalculation in how much a ball will throw. That's a mistake on the shooter's part imo.

So we should not be confusing the two things. If as a player you think a ball will throw less and it throws more and you miss then you missed because of chalk on the ball then it's not your mistake. If you have clean balls which will throw as expected to and you miss then it's your fault and not a "skid".

John , it is hard to believe that you have not caught on to the concept that a rolling ball tries to climb the face of a ball not rolling. A Players might see the possibility of a skid scenario and be extra careful and still get fooled.


bill

 

[JB Cases]

John , it is hard to believe that you have not caught on to the concept that a rolling ball tries to climb the face of a ball not rolling. A Players might see the possibility of a skid scenario and be extra careful and still get fooled.


bill

No, I never thought about balls climbing onto each other. But I do understand throw and how to throw a ball into or out of a path. So when I play I am conscious of shots where I might want to do either but I do not now nor have I ever planned for skid.

 

[Fatboy]

Maybe "the skid shot" just didn't come up

Lou Figueroa

exactly, got to play shape to avoid it, if ya cant do that ya just cant play.......

 

[JB Cases]

I would not define skid as greater throw than expected, it is as I tried to explain in the prior post regarding rotational motion vs directional motion of the colliding balls and the result of what happens when the rotational motion is first to act on the OB before the OB takes on directional motion.

So then "skid" can be predicted? Can you make it happen on demand?

This is what Dave says about it,

""Cling" (AKA "skid" or "kick") refers to an excessive amount of throw, well beyond what is expected for a given shot. People sometimes mistake a naturally large amount of throw as cling, especially if they are unaware of how throw varies with the type of shot (see throw effects and maximum throw). Again, cling is an amount of throw much greater than should be expected for a given shot and conditions."

The video here seems obvious to me. http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#outside

What am I missing?

 

[bstroud]

My experience with skid with Aramith balls has caused me to alter my game when playing with them.

Skid occurs most often (for me at least) when I am using what I call an inert cue ball. That is no left, right, low or high. The cue ball is not rotating in any direction. Rather it is being pushed across the cloth.

It also occurs when you are shooting at a slow speed (hard to define).

I am a center ball player like Chris and at first had a terrible time adjusting to all the skids.

I have learned that a little outside English seems to eliminate the skid problem. I also have noticed that inside with reasonable speed seems to keep from skidding balls.

The Measles ball causes more skids than the red circle. I think it is the density of the plastic.

I don't think players should need to adjust to these problems caused by what I think are inferior balls.

The original Centennials produced a skid infrequently and I think that could be attributed to chalk on the balls.

I play with Kamui chalk 6 hours a day and have noticed that the Measles ball holds more chalk.

Playing with the Cyclop balls and the cue ball that belongs to the set seemed to produce less skids. The Measles ball is another story. It should be discarded.

Bill S.

 

[real bartram]

I agree 100%. The question was if you feel at your level if you should be able to predict and therefore adjust to a potential skid shot. I would think no, but others believe it possible. My assumption is since you got hurt by it before, you would have adjusted if it were as simple as that.

when you slow spin a ball most of the time inside English it can skid
No I should not have to shoot the shot diff because it might skid
A skid use to happen to me once a tourney
In this tourney it was 2 times a match
That's out of line if you ask me
Both my 8 ball sets the skid played a big part in my loss
With Ko I did still have a chance to win but my other set after the skid
I had no real chance
And I would have tied it at 5 5 in the other set

 

[3andstop]

So then "skid" can be predicted? Can you make it happen on demand?

This is what Dave says about it,

""Cling" (AKA "skid" or "kick") refers to an excessive amount of throw, well beyond what is expected for a given shot. People sometimes mistake a naturally large amount of throw as cling, especially if they are unaware of how throw varies with the type of shot (see throw effects and maximum throw). Again, cling is an amount of throw much greater than should be expected for a given shot and conditions."

The video here seems obvious to me. http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#outside

When the OB clings to the CB the result is more throw than expected, but I don't like that as a definition. When you experience a skid you miss your shot, but the definition of a skid isn't " a skid is when you miss your shot" is it?

Honestly, I think I offered a pretty good definition back a few posts regarding the law of inertia and the multiple types of CB motion affecting the resting OB.

Trying to cause it on purpose is very difficult because the conditions / circumstances that create it are very sensitive.

Set up two balls in a corner pocket opening 2 - 3/8ths inches apart from each other. Now place the CB in the jaws of the pocket diagonally farthest away from them. Put another ball in the center of the table. Now, shoot that center ball with the CB into the pocket past the two balls that are reducing the pocket opening without touching them. It can be done,I mean you have a 16th inch on each side, but it isn't easy to do.

 

[sheffield6]

I think only the BBC audience believes the electrostatic theory.

The electrostatic forces themselves will be so small that they cannot cause skid. It is possible that if more chalk sticks to the ball due to static charge and that could cause more skids.

It is easy to demonstrate that chalk can cause skids. Chalk is present on the cue ball. I think that to most this constitutes a smoking gun. I wonder how the BBC commentators wandered off into the weeds.

The amazing " all of one opinion" BBC audience.
Personally , i preferred your Pixie dust theory.
Wheres Johnson when you need him:grin-square:

 

[Tony_in_MD]

I have noticed the same.

Centerball hits at slow speeds = skids (at least for me)

Hitting the shot a little firmer, or with some English seems to help.

As I play with the measles ball all the time I cannot support more skids with one ball type over the other.

My experience with skid with Aramith balls has caused me to alter my game when playing with them.

Skid occurs most often (for me at least) when I am using what I call an inert cue ball. That is no left, right, low or high. The cue ball is not rotating in any direction. Rather it is being pushed across the cloth.

It also occurs when you are shooting at a slow speed (hard to define).

I am a center ball player like Chris and at first had a terrible time adjusting to all the skids.

I have learned that a little outside English seems to eliminate the skid problem. I also have noticed that inside with reasonable speed seems to keep from skidding balls.

The Measles ball causes more skids than the red circle. I think it is the density of the plastic.

I don't think players should need to adjust to these problems caused by what I think are inferior balls.

The original Centennials produced a skid infrequently and I think that could be attributed to chalk on the balls.

I play with Kamui chalk 6 hours a day and have noticed that the Measles ball holds more chalk.

Playing with the Cyclop balls and the cue ball that belongs to the set seemed to produce less skids. The Measles ball is another story. It should be discarded.

Bill S.

 

[bstroud]

It just seems to me that the Measles ball is softer, or rougher and has more cling.

If I practice straight pool with the Measles ball it is much more difficult to make large runs.

It tends to stick to other balls much more often and accumulates more chalk.
It also causes more skids.

I have a Diamond ball polisher and notice it does not polish to as high a shine as the other balls.

I no longer have a Durometer to check the hardness but I would guess it is less hard than the Red Circle.

Another think about the Cyclop balls. The have a higher "click" sound that would indicate a harder compound.

I certainly like playing with them better because they feel more like the original Centennials that I grew up with. I have ordered a set.

Bill S.

 

[sfleinen]

See here:

http://idlex.freeserve.co.uk/siphon/analytics/snooker.html

In the snooker world, the term "kick" is sometimes also used to refer to CB hop and its effect on OB motion. For example, see: Snooker Ball Bounce ... yet another explanation of snooker kicks.

Dave:

I gotta tell you, this is pretty hilarious how lockjawed you are on feeding links. I gave you a link to refer to that I feel disputes clumping in "kick" with the common definition of what we pool players refer to as "cling" or "skid," and what do you do? You give the EXACT SAME link back to me, asking me to "see" or "refer" to it. Unbelievable. It makes me think you don't actually read what you write, and instead get caught in autopilot "link feeding."

Anyway, we'll agree to disagree on the definition of "kick" as it relates to the common definition we pool players know "skid" and "cling" to be. No disrespect.

-Sean

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Did your measles ball come with the rest of the balls in the set or did you buy it separately.

I have two measles ball one from the set of super pros's and the other I bought separately. Both are different. Color is off on one.

Perhaps yours is not from a matched set.

It just seems to me that the Measles ball is softer, or rougher and has more cling.

If I practice straight pool with the Measles ball it is much more difficult to make large runs.

It tends to stick to other balls much more often and accumulates more chalk.
It also causes more skids.

I have a Diamond ball polisher and notice it does not polish to as high a shine as the other balls.

I no longer have a Durometer to check the hardness but I would guess it is less hard than the Red Circle.

Another think about the Cyclop balls. The have a higher "click" sound that would indicate a harder compound.

I certainly like playing with them better because they feel more like the original Centennials that I grew up with. I have ordered a set.

Bill S.

 

[dr_dave]

When the OB clings to the CB the result is more throw than expected, but I don't like that as a definition.

The CB doesn't actually cling more to the OB when there is a "bad hit" (AKA cling, skid, kick). It just seems like they cling together based on the reaction of the balls.

When you experience a skid you miss your shot

... not always, but this can certainly be the case.

but the definition of a skid isn't " a skid is when you miss your shot" is it?

No.

Honestly, I think I offered a pretty good definition back a few posts regarding the law of inertia and the multiple types of CB motion affecting the resting OB.

It is much simpler than you described. When the CB hits an OB with a cut angle or non-gearing spin, there is friction between the CB and OB at the point of contact that resists the relative motion between the balls. This is what causes throw (CIT or SIT), which is normal. A "bad hit" (AKA "cling," "skid," or "kick") occurs when the amount of friction is greater than normal (e.g., because there is a chalk mark at the point of contact). In this case the amount of throw (or ball hop and topspin loss in the case of a nearly straight follow shot) is larger than the typical amount.

Trying to cause it on purpose is very difficult because the conditions / circumstances that create it are very sensitive.

That's not true. It is very easy to cause "cling" by placing a chalk mark at the expected point of contact. For demonstrations, see the "cling" resource page.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I gotta tell you, this is pretty hilarious how lockjawed you are on feeding links.

I "feed" links when the links directly support or demonstrate what is being debated or questioned.

I gave you a link to refer to that I feel disputes clumping in "kick" with the common definition of what we pool players refer to as "cling" or "skid," and what do you do? You give the EXACT SAME link back to me, asking me to "see" or "refer" to it. Unbelievable. It makes me think you don't actually read what you write, and instead get caught in autopilot "link feeding."

I didn't just "feed" back your link. I also provided another link which provided reputable info that disputed your claim. I have read all of the information in all of the links that you and I have posted. Have you reviewed my entire "cling" resource page, including the information at the links and in the video demonstrations? I think if you did, you would mostly agree with the information. If you don't, I am done trying to convince you. Did you also read Bob Jewett's recent post about the link you posted? I certainly agree with him.

Anyway, we'll agree to disagree on the definition of "kick" as it relates to the common definition we pool players know "skid" and "cling" to be. No disrespect.

Good idea. Ditto.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Fatboy]

It just seems to me that the Measles ball is softer, or rougher and has more cling.

If I practice straight pool with the Measles ball it is much more difficult to make large runs.

It tends to stick to other balls much more often and accumulates more chalk.
It also causes more skids.

I have a Diamond ball polisher and notice it does not polish to as high a shine as the other balls.

I no longer have a Durometer to check the hardness but I would guess it is less hard than the Red Circle.

Another think about the Cyclop balls. The have a higher "click" sound that would indicate a harder compound.

I certainly like playing with them better because they feel more like the original Centennials that I grew up with. I have ordered a set.

Bill S.

That's true I have a diamond polisher and spun a few balls a couple nights ago, a few were measle balls, none of them get near as shiny, one was bright white, others were a bit yellow, none are wore out, the oldest one might have 200-300 hours of play, could be less.

 

[Fatboy]

I have a set of cylop balls coming, I'm curious too. I want to see how they react in LA where the tables are wetter and their other properties as they relate to play

 

[JB Cases]

I still don't understand what 'skid' is other than the balls not going where you thought they would.

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

I still don't understand what 'skid' is other than the balls not going where you thought they would.

the guys who study this will have to confirm but from what I see/hear/understand, "skid" is an object ball being pushed across the cloth (or hopped), even for a fraction of a second, rather than being rolled when being contacted by the cue ball.

And the leading candidate for why "skid" happens seems to be chalk creating friction at the point of the two balls colliding.

Then the discussion goes into various ball hardnesses, cleanliness, smoothness, cloth conditions, weather, spin, and just plain bad aiming.

Did I get all of this correct? :wink:

best,
brian kc

 

[justadub]

I no longer have a Durometer to check the hardness but I would guess it is less hard than the Red Circle.

Bill S.

Did the Durometer go with the cue making equipment, that could have been used to.....

....maybe make the cue that you promised the entire AZB community that you would make?

Just sayin'...