Skid

[dr_dave]

So, Bob, put another way: if the CB in use at any given tournament had been previously used in an 8ball, 9ball, or 10ball event where phenolic break tip were allowed, then those CBs would have surface abrasions that might produce more skids?

In case Bob isn't online, I'll answer for him.

Yes, especially when those surface marks attract and hold chalk more readily than the surrounding ball surface.

Also, scuffs caused by miscues (which can happen even with non-phenolic tips used by any players in any setting) can have similar effects.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Bob Jewett]

There are other games that don't use a break cue, phenolic or not. They must experience bad contacts?

Sure. I'm just speculating on why things may be worse recently. I pointed out one tournament with a lot of horrible skids that was straight pool. You can usually see -- if you stop to look -- that the cue ball has two or three or ten chalk spots on it at all times during play in pretty much all games. Even if the cue ball is freshly cleaned, it will have the chalk spot due to the next shot. George Onoda wrote a column for Billiards Digest in which he estimated the chance of a kick/skid/cling/bad contact simply based on the area of the cue ball and the area of chalked surface on the cue ball. His estimate corresponded roughly with the frequency observed at that time.

 

[sheffield6]

Sure. I'm just speculating on why things may be worse recently. I pointed out one tournament with a lot of horrible skids that was straight pool. You can usually see -- if you stop to look -- that the cue ball has two or three or ten chalk spots on it at all times during play in pretty much all games. Even if the cue ball is freshly cleaned, it will have the chalk spot due to the next shot. George Onoda wrote a column for Billiards Digest in which he estimated the chance of a kick/skid/cling/bad contact simply based on the area of the cue ball and the area of chalked surface on the cue ball. His estimate corresponded roughly with the frequency observed at that time.

the situation recently is no different to any other tournament, theres always chalk everywhere, on the balls, rails, cloth etc. The point that Bartram made , was that these new balls skid more. I'd be inclined to believe him
I'll tell em

 

[dr_dave]

I'm just speculating on why things may be worse recently

Here are some possible speculations:
- Chalk sticks to the CB more than it used to, possibly because of changes in CB manufacturing or cleaning practices and/or due to changes in chalk composition or manufacturing.
- Newer cloths (like Simonis) are faster and slicker and might not rub the chalk marks off the CB as much or as fast as older cloths do.
- People are now more knowledgeable and aware of throw and cling, and maybe they just notice, understand, and talk about it more now.

Regards,
Dave

 

[sheffield6]

Here are some possible speculations:
- Chalk sticks to the CB more than it used to, possibly because of changes in CB manufacturing or cleaning practices and/or due to changes in chalk composition or manufacturing.
- Newer cloths (like Simonis) are faster and slicker and might not rub the chalk marks off the CB as much or as fast as older cloths do.
- People are now more knowledgeable and aware of throw and cling, and maybe they just notice, understand, and talk about it more now.

Regards,
Dave

I think your first 2 points have merit but not the 3rd
I think any one who plays , knows when they get a bad contact
personally, I get more bad contacts playing snooker, than pool, maybe the bigger heavier balls. Experienced players tend to know the type of shot that will result in a bad contact, but still get nasty suprises.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Cyclop Balls make up for their obsessive skidding by being the least ...............

I have seen more balls skid this week then ever
Cyclop balls suck

Look at the bright side, the Cyclop Balls make up for their obsessive skidding by being the least visually appealing balls in the world.

 

[Fatboy]

After all this discussion about the balls skidding perhaps we should be looking at the Simmonis cloth?

Forty years ago on nappy cloth skids seldom if ever happened.

Bill S.

from your lip's to Gods ears

 

[8ballEinstein]

My take on Cyclop balls ...

When I arrived at the BCAPL event, play was already a few days in progress. I run into a good friend and experienced player (dr2112 on this forum). He tells me to be careful of the new balls being used because they tend to skid more. This also happened to be the time right after the rain storm and power outage. Afterward I understand the air being pumped in the event room was mostly outside air, which was very humid. Well, humid conditions and chalk on the balls equals more skidding. My friend said that makes total sense and might explain everything.

I later played in the team event and didn't experience any skidding on my shots, or anyone else's shot for that matter.

I did happen to see Chris's match against Ko. On the very shot he says the ball skidded, my attention was on something else. I just assumed Chris was making the shot and the runout would've been academic from there. When I turned back I see the ball still on the table and Chris not too happy. To me it looked like the ball must've hit the near rail, instead of the far rail like JB said earlier in this thread. Ken Shuman went on to say it was a skid. All I know is Chris was playing for shape using inside english and a slow speed hit. If Ken and Chris say a skid happened on that shot, I'll pretty much accept their word. I'm just at a loss for how it happened when I didn't see any skidding during team play. All I can think of is chalk on the balls, which is NOT the fault of the manufacturer. If you noticed, many of the pros were taking the cue ball and rolling it against the head rail before each snap. No doubt they were trying to clean off any residual chalk.

I came into this skeptical of the Cyclop balls but after a week of playing with them, I'm very much OK with them. Yesterday before I left town, a friend was considering a new set of balls for his home table and asked what I thought of getting a set from Cyclop. I said, "let's take a good look at a set that's been in use for the last 2 weeks". On close inspection I thought I saw some scratches on a couple of balls but it turned out to be nothing more than smudged fingerprints that were able to be wiped off. If chalk or talc had contact with these fingerprints, I could see a skid being entirely possible.

My friend ended up buying a set and I'll be there at his table to shoot with them more.

I say Mark Griffin and his boys did their homework. Good call, guys.

Btw - I don't work for Cyclop or Diamond (their distributor) and get no remuneration from them.

 

[sjm]

Several players mentioned the skid issue to me, but the prevailing opinion among them was that the object balls were fine. The cue ball, they suggested, picked up way too much chalk.

Speaking as a fan, I'd have to say that I liked the Cyclops balls. The return of the purple four and twelve, which are pink in the Aramith set, was pleasing to me.

 

[CJ Wiley]

"pidder padder pool" is sooooooo boring.

Originally Posted by bstroud View Post
After all this discussion about the balls skidding perhaps we should be looking at the Simmonis cloth?

Forty years ago on nappy cloth skids seldom if ever happened.

Bill S.

from your lip's to Gods ears

I agree, PLEASE get rid of this phony fast cloth and use something that has some "traction". Watching players "spin their wheels," and have to resort to "pidder padder pool" is sooooooo boring.

OPERATION LET YOUR STOKE OUT :thumbup:

 

[Marc]

skid

I truly believe that skids happen more often on Diamond Tables than on Brunswick,or other brand tables.

And I truly believe one of the reasons for it is the black material from the pockets that get on the cueball and all over the object balls.

It surprises me that Diamond company has done nothing to change that.

Not only I think they induce skids,but it makes the balls look horrible with those black stains.

I guess it's all about money, like many things are in this world...

Brunswick used to use some brazilian rubber for their rails,it was the best.
Greg Sullivan told me that himself.

With time it was harder and more expensive to get that specific brazilian rubber,so they stopped using it.

The pockets material of many Brunswicks and imitation of Brunswicks (made in China), are much better than the material that Diamond uses, and yet Diamond insists on using what they are using now, and they keep staining the balls.
I'm sure there is a reason, a financial reason for it.

But of course the real reason I don't know, so I could be totally wrong..

But I'm convinced that skids come from that material from the pockets,more than just the chalk.

Chalk stays always on the cue ball, but back when I started playing on Sam and Brusnwick tables I would never get as many skids as I do now that I play mainly on Diamond tables.

There are many great things about Diamond tables. They seem to roll a lot better than others, I mean they are easier to level right.
They bank more true than Brunsiwcks, and they play tough, cuz the deep shelve

But the bumpy rails (too high) and the dark material in the pockets that stain the balls, that is no good.

The best table I have played to date, is the Metro Brunswick Competition Edition

 

[1on1pooltournys]

I agree, PLEASE get rid of this phony fast cloth and use something that has some "traction". Watching players "spin their wheels," and have to resort to "pidder padder pool" is sooooooo boring.

OPERATION LET YOUR STOKE OUT :thumbup:

Lol...Nice Ceeeejjjj.

I especially admire your animation.

 

[Johnnyt]

Over 6000 views and over 200 yak, yak's on skids. Unbelievable. Johnnyt

 

[CJ Wiley]

surfaces that were just toooooo fast and the game became gimmicky.

Lol...Nice Ceeeejjjj.

I especially admire your animation.

Hey, I used to play tennis on all sorts of surfaces, from clay, to grass to concrete/asphalt, etc. There were some surfaces that were just toooooo fast and the game became gimmicky. Golf greens went through some scrutiny a few years ago, and regulated it asap.

This has happened to the game of pool, the conditions are too fast, and there's no regulations, so everyone just goes "peacefully along".

When are we going to insist on guidelines for these factors like golf did years ago with their greens?

 

[lfigueroa]

Several players mentioned the skid issue to me, but the prevailing opinion among them was that the object balls were fine. The cue ball, they suggested, picked up way too much chalk.

Speaking as a fan, I'd have to say that I liked the Cyclops balls. The return of the purple four and twelve, which are pink in the Aramith set, was pleasing to me.

I think this is it. The CBs were retaining too much chalk. Perhaps the measles balls that were in play had been exposed to phenolic break tips, maybe not.

In any case, I know this: I came to a couple of tables to play a match where, literally, the red circles on the measles ball all looked like they had blue centers from too much chalk residue.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Over 6000 views and over 200 yak, yak's on skids. Unbelievable. Johnnyt

lol. You start *many* of these yak-fest threads. Even though it's not one of yours, you should let it rip.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I truly believe that skids happen more often on Diamond Tables than on Brunswick,or other brand tables.

Could be because Diamonds have been the tables of choice for most of the recent big tournaments.

Lou Figueroa
just a guess

 

[Johnnyt]

Those training balls pick up the most blue from chalk and powder than any other CB I've used...and I have about 8 different CB and probably have played with just about all of the others in my travels. But don't change from using them it in tournaments. The fans love to watch it spin. What does it do hypnotize them into buying something. Johnnyt

 

[JB Cases]

Over 6000 views and over 200 yak, yak's on skids. Unbelievable. Johnnyt

Think its because there is no agreement on what skids actually are. We have scientists and engineers, self-appointed spokes model amateur players, pro and semi-pro players and regular bangers and no consensus on skids.

What is skid?

Is it caused by balls alone?

Chalk alone?

Ball density or composition?

Cloth type?

Can it be predicted? Are amateurs better than pros at predicting and avoiding it?

 

[CJ Wiley]

Skids are just a "side effect,' the real issue is the speed of the cloth

Think its because there is no agreement on what skids actually are. We have scientists and engineers, self-appointed spokes model amateur players, pro and semi-pro players and regular bangers and no consensus on skids.

What is skid?

Is it caused by balls alone?

Chalk alone?

Ball density or composition?

Cloth type?

Can it be predicted? Are amateurs better than pros at predicting and avoiding it?

Skids are just a "side effect,' the real issue is the speed (lack of friction) of the cloth and whatever synthetic material they're adding to it these days. I used this cloth in my pool room, right about the time they were changing some of the materials that made it faster, then I immediately changed to Championship. The Championship brand still plays slower, it's too bad they don't sponsor pool tournaments like they did in the "ole days," or Simonis would come out with a better grade for professionals.