Step #1 To Improve The Image Of Pocket Billiards

1st, and foremost ... A Standard Dress Code.

I witnessed nothing less than Gentlemanly behaviour
at the IPT Championship in Reno several years back.
Tony Chohan and Rafael Martinez in Suits was
something to behold. The upscale atmosphere was
very refreshing.
 
Paul Schofield said:
A code of honor should be an important part of the rules.

If this topic interests you, this ESPN essay says it all. It is a very good read:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/cheat/columns/story?columnist=harig_bob&id=2964423

Our sport is similar to golf in so many ways. Play fouls on all balls. Players need to call fouls on themselves. We should not need referees for anything more than to clarify rules.
Click to expand...

I agree that more honor would be a great thing. However, with tournament payouts being what they are (i.e., low), I can't really blame the players for not calling fouls on themselves. I'm all about honor and admitting my faults but I play once a week in a NAPA league; I'm not trying to put food in my mouth.

Quite frankly, golfers have the luxury of being honorable. Look at the PGA Money List for this year. The top 50 players have more than a million dollars in winnings. And that doesn't count all the free clubs, bags, and miscellaneous shit they get from sponsors. Hell, Tiger could use $100 bills for TP and it wouldn't make a dent in his bank account.
 
Earl overall is very honorable towards the game. He will do the right thing almost all the time. I don't think he will ever actually cheat aside from not calling a foul on himself if it was not something obvious. That is not really "cheating" though, just playing within the rules. Earl's thing is that he takes the game itself as more important than the opponent, or himself for that matter. If something was not done right, even if it will favor the opponent, he will be against that.
Click to expand...

This strikes me as a perfect example of the kind of attitude paul is suggesting we need to fix.

"That's not really cheating though. It's within the rules."

A: It's not within the rules, though I'm fully aware several people have tried to argue otherwise
in 50-page threads. The rules don't cease to exist just because we can't figure out who
should be calling the foul.

B: it's still obviously dishonorable, so it's a little baffling anyone would say Earl is honorable even if he
were to not call a foul on himself. Which he openly has admitted to doing.

Pool will always have a sleazy reputation if people openly defend sleazy behavior.
 
I predict it will be "spawned" be a Pool Reality Show that hits the "mainstream"

ENGLISH! said:
When Bob Toski had just started playing the Senior Tour someone accused him of marking his ball improperly on the greens in a way that got the ball that ever so little bit closer to the hole.

Toski was so incensed that someone would suggest that he would cheat that he decided to show everyone that he did not need the money or even the titles bad enough to cheat. He did not need them so much so that he would not even compete for them. He quit the Sr. Tour.

That was a bad occurrence & consequences for both Mr. Toski & the Sr. Tour. But that is how much one's honor can mean to an individual.

To some individuals it means nothing because they have no honor.

I wonder what kind of honor the man that accused Mr. Toski had. I'm not saying he did but it seems that he is the one that had that picture of a way to get even that extremely slight advantage in HIS mind & quite possibly in his heart.

Until unacceptable behavior is rooted out of the game & the public gets a new perception of the game & the people that play it. Pool will always have a seedy image of a game played by individuals of poor character.

CJ Wiley & others tried to change that image back in the day & for awhile things were good for the game. But the grass roots stories from bar rooms & pool halls take over in the public's eye & it's back to square one.

It's almost like there are two different games. One played by gentlemen & one played by thugs.

The public knows more about the one played by thugs.

Other games are not really any different. There are gentlemen & thugs in every other sport & perhaps even in Golf. But it does not appear so in Golf & the public's perception is that there are no thugs in Golf. Even if a golfer that may be having all kinds of other problems with alcohol, gambling, drugs or even cheating on their wives, they would not cheat while playing Golf. That is the public's perception.

But in pool, a pool player will do anything to win. He will lie about his ability. He will cough & drop his stick while you are in your stroke. He will distract you in some way by asking you a question that makes you look away while he makes an illegal shot. Pool players are lying, cheating, hard drinking, no goods, with not one moral bone in their body. That is the public's perception of a pool player.

How long has pool been around compared to Golf & look at where they each are? If pool keeps doing what it has done since it's demise it will remain where it is.

Why can't Billiards follow in Golf's foot steps? The players, a player, should form a Professional Cue Sport Players Association & start taking their destiny into their own hands & stop being the pawns of promoters & tournament director, etc. Nothing against them. The players in general have by default simply handed over the power & responsibility to those guys.

No 'one' can do it alone but as a group they can do it together just like the PGA did. It might have to be take two steps back & a little more suffering so that a move forward can actually take place..

How is it said...No pain...No gain.
Click to expand...

This is easier said than done, the players have been relentlessly knocked for many years and there's a lot of damage. The best way is to completely remove themselves from the current situation. This is possible, and they're doing something like this with Bonus Ball, although they desperately need a comprehensive business/marketing plan.

There will be a day this happens and I predict it will be "spawned" be a Pool Reality Show that hits the "mainstream" public. "Our Game will be their Teacher'
 
hang-the-9 said:
I think, and have written in another post, that Earl overall is very honorable towards the game. He will do the right thing almost all the time. I don't think he will ever actually cheat aside from not calling a foul on himself if it was not something obvious. That is not really "cheating" though, just playing within the rules.
Click to expand...

You missed my point. Defending Earl will only work on people who think he can do no wrong and grant him excuses if he gets caught doing something. Listen to how he justifies himself in the clip. Earl is certainly not the only one to pull a move either, he is the norm when it comes to pool as far as most people are concerned.

"Character is doing the right thing even when no one is watching."
 
I think that was tried before too.

Remember the TV show called BallBreakers?

Eva was an technical analyst on the show if I remember correctly.

Did it do anything for the image of pool?

http://www.tv.com/shows/ball-breakers/


As far as the players, yes they have had a tough time of it, but they also have been their own worst enemy too.

CJ Wiley said:
This is easier said than done, the players have been relentlessly knocked for many years and there's a lot of damage. The best way is to completely remove themselves from the current situation. This is possible, and they're doing something like this with Bonus Ball, although they desperately need a comprehensive business/marketing plan.

There will be a day this happens and I predict it will be "spawned" be a Pool Reality Show that hits the "mainstream" public. "Our Game will be their Teacher'
Click to expand...
 
krupa said:
I agree that more honor would be a great thing. However, with tournament payouts being what they are (i.e., low), I can't really blame the players for not calling fouls on themselves. I'm all about honor and admitting my faults but I play once a week in a NAPA league; I'm not trying to put food in my mouth.

Quite frankly, golfers have the luxury of being honorable. Look at the PGA Money List for this year. The top 50 players have more than a million dollars in winnings. And that doesn't count all the free clubs, bags, and miscellaneous shit they get from sponsors. Hell, Tiger could use $100 bills for TP and it wouldn't make a dent in his bank account.
Click to expand...

Krupa,

So you are putting a price tag on honor? One needs some food money so they will basically sell out their honor & basically cheat & steal the money from their fellow competitor instead of getting a job with a paycheck so they can eat. If they can not make it in the game without selling out their honor then they should not be in the game, at least not at that time.

The golfers of old did not make the kind of money of which you speak & Bobby Jones was an amateur.

But in a way You are making one of my points. The old golf pros formed the PGA & they built it. They then hired people to help them grow it to where it is today.

The golf pros took their game & prize money to the Penthouse & the old pool pros took their game & prize money to a sleezy motel on the edge of town.

Now I am not putting down anyone by that comparison except for their perception, foresight & business sense.

However the past is the past & the two sports are where they are today, but if one keeps doing what they are doing & expects to get something different, well then they deserve what they get.

And if everyone keeps excusing their dishonorable behavior they will keep doing what they are doing.

The Pros need to join together & take their future into their own hands & that may mean a complete & total shut down for a while until a Professional Cue Sport Players Association 'Tour' can be put together.

AND that may result in some not even being allowed to join the Assoc. It may come down to a 'we don;t you with us' or 'okay but here are the rules'.

I wish nothing but the best for everyone playing the game.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
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Paul Schofield said:
A code of honor should be an important part of the rules.

If this topic interests you, this ESPN essay says it all. It is a very good read:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/cheat/columns/story?columnist=harig_bob&id=2964423

Our sport is similar to golf in so many ways. Play fouls on all balls. Players need to call fouls on themselves. We should not need referees for anything more than to clarify rules.
Click to expand...


GET RID OF THE HUSTLE, THE DUMP, AND THE CON

easier said than done ... but the so called players who do this should be cast to a remote island and let them duke it out amongst themselves. may the best thief win

this would help our beautiful sport immensely
 
billy said:
GET RID OF THE HUSTLE, THE DUMP, AND THE CON

easier said than done ... but the so called players who do this should be cast to a remote island and let them duke it out amongst themselves. may the best thief win

this would help our beautiful sport immensely
Click to expand...

Yes Billy,

You have to keep the weeds from choking the flowers to death.

Best Wishes,
Rick
 
ENGLISH! said:
Krupa,

So you are putting a price tag on honor? One needs some food money so they will basically sell out their honor & basically cheat & steal the money from their fellow competitor instead of getting a job with a paycheck so they can eat. If they can not make it in the game without selling out their honor then they should not be in the game, at least not at that time.

The golfers of old did not make the kind of money of which you speak & Bobby Jones was an amateur.

But in a way You are making one of my points. The old golf pros formed the PGA & they built it. They then hired people to help them grow it to where it is today.

The golf pros took their game & prize money to the Penthouse & the old pool pros took their game & prize money to a sleezy motel on the edge of town.

Now I am not putting down anyone by that comparison except for their perception, foresight & business sense.

However the past is the past & the two sports are where they are today, but if one keeps doing what they are doing & expects to get something different, well then they deserve what they get.

And if everyone keeps excusing their dishonorable behavior they will keep doing what they are doing.

The Pros need to join together & take their future into their own hands & that may mean a complete & total shut down for a while until a Professional Cue Sport Players Association 'Tour' can be put together.

AND that may result in some not even being allowed to join the Assoc. It may come down to a 'we don;t you with us' or 'okay but here are the rules'.

I wish nothing but the best for everyone playing the game.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
Click to expand...

No but I'm not going to judge them too harshly either and I'm not going to compare them to golfers when the two sports are more disparate (in my opinion) than the OP leads us to believe.
 
krupa said:
I'm not going to compare them to golfers when the two sports are more disparate (in my opinion) than the OP leads us to believe.
Click to expand...

Why aren't they? They are both ball-striking sports with a long history of gambling that were originally played only by those of affluence. In the mainstream one still is a measure of wealth while the other is a pastime of degenerates.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Until unacceptable behavior is rooted out of the game & the public gets a new perception of the game & the people that play it. Pool will always have a seedy image of a game played by individuals of poor character.
Click to expand...

Unacceptable behavior happens in every sport. Even a recent survey of PGA Tour Caddies revealed that more than half the caddies had witnessed players cheating. I think my point may have been missed in this thread.

Like golf, pool is a sport of written rules. Including a code of honor in the rule book challenges the players in a whole new way. Not only are the players' skills measured, players' characters are also measured. Honest and dishonest players are cognizant of the rules. Rules must be followed.

As the rules are written now, calling an infraction is everyone elses responsibility but the shooter's. This makes a player look like a pirate trying to get away with whatever he can. Rules requiring players to call fouls on themselves would be no different than any other rule in the rulebook. Under these circumstances, a foul would result in some penalty and not calling the foul on one's self would expose a player to the shame and severe penalties of unsportsmanlike conduct.

Because it would be in the rulebook, players would know what is expected of them. It would provide clarity for a lot of players who are basically honest but are confused by the whole issue.

The bottom line is that an honor code in the rules would provide a platform for players to show themselves and our sport in it's best light.
 
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Paul Schofield said:
Unacceptable behavior happens in every sport. Even a recent survey of PGA Tour Caddies revealed that more than half the caddies had witnessed players cheating. I think my point may have been missed in this thread.

Like golf, pool is a sport of written rules. Including a code of honor in the rule book, challenges the players in a whole new way. Not only are the players' skills measured, players' characters are also measured. Honest and dishonest players are cognizant of the rules. Rules must be followed.

As the rules are written now, calling an infraction is everyone elses responsibility but the shooter's. This makes a player look like a pirate trying to get away with whatever he can. Rules requiring players to call fouls on themselves would be no different than any other rule in the rulebook. Under these circumstances, a foul would result in some penalty and not calling the foul on one's self would expose a player to the shame and severe penalties of unsportsmanlike conduct.

Because it would be in the rulebook, players would know what is expected of them. It would provide clarity for a lot of players who are basically honest but are confused by the whole issue.

The bottom line is that an honor code in the rules would provide a platform for players to show themselves and our sport in it's best light.
Click to expand...

Paul,

I certainly agree with you. It should be exactly spelled out in the rules. In golf signing an incorrect score card results in a DQ & they know it.

Part of the problem as I see it, & I may be wrong but the game of 'pool' has no real consistency in basically anything, tables, balls, rules, penalties, etc. There needs to be some uniformity. In my opinion the only way that is going to happen is if the players take control of their game & their own destiny.

I know it will not be easy, but sooner or later it is going to have to be done or nothing will change for the long haul.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
We need to start with the government.....pres......and media press.......the sheep follow and children influenced by all of these lying cheats.
 
Rules requiring players to call fouls on themselves would be no different than any other rule in the rulebook. Under these circumstances, a foul would result in some penalty and not calling the foul on one's self would expose a player to the shame and severe penalties of unsportsmanlike conduct.

Because it would be in the rulebook, players would know what is expected of them. It would provide clarity for a lot of players who are basically honest but are confused by the whole issue.
Click to expand...

Oh, so this is just JoeyA's thread regurgitated.

We need to explicitly instruct players "in writing" not to cheat, because ... why? because it would
provide clarity for a lot of players who are basically honest but are confused by the whole issue?

OK, please show me a player who doesn't call a foul on himself because he's "basically honest, but confused".

No, sorry, there's no confusion there. Players know right from wrong. It's not difficult.
"well it was never actually written down" is just an excuse liars and cheats try to hide behind.
Why be an apologist for such people?

If someone failed to feel any shame when they intentionally hid their foul, what makes you think
they'll suddenly grow a conscience being hit with an unsportsmanlike penalty?
That would be a case of "you're not sorry, you're just sorry you got caught."

If you want to include the rule to remove that excuse, ok, but I don't see
any way of enforcing additional "severe penalties".

How can you prove that I knew I tapped the cue ball, but pretended not to notice?
What if I really didn't notice?
 
Creedo,

I certainly see your point or I certainly think that I do.

They say that ignorance is no excuse. You're lumping some of the players into one group when I think there could be some distinction between some of them.

Pro golfers know that the PGA wants them to be honest & have honor & call fouls on themselves but many times a player has fouled & did not realize it but when explained to them by an official or they see on tape they agree & access the appropriate penalty up to a DQ.

I agree with you that more severe penalties will not be readily forth coming until the players start an association of players to take the game into their own hands & then basically police themselves.

Best Regards & Wishes,
Rick

PS I can't stand it when people phone in about fouls. That's not how the game is set up to be played, not with millions of eyes watching zoomed in slow motion replays. You can't look into anyone's mind & heart, not even with a telephoto slow motion camera. The spectator should NOT be a part of the ruling process. At least not in my opinion.
 
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CreeDo said:
Oh, so this is just JoeyA's thread regurgitated.

We need to explicitly instruct players "in writing" not to cheat, because ... why? because it would
provide clarity for a lot of players who are basically honest but are confused by the whole issue?

OK, please show me a player who doesn't call a foul on himself because he's "basically honest, but confused".

No, sorry, there's no confusion there. Players know right from wrong. It's not difficult.
"well it was never actually written down" is just an excuse liars and cheats try to hide behind.
Why be an apologist for such people?
Click to expand...

Presently, players are not obligated to call fouls on themselves. It is not in the rules.
 
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Paul Schofield said:
Presently, players should not be calling fouls on themselves. It is not in the rules.
Click to expand...

Paul,

There is more to playing a competitive game between human beings than just the written rules.

Look what Tony Robeles(spelling?) just did. He knew the referee had made a mistake calling a foul on his opponent so he basically conceded the game AND the match.

To be honest, I don't think that it is written in the rules of golf that one is required to call fouls on oneself. But in a sense, I guess it is, because if you sign an incorrect score card for your round that is kept by your playing competitor, then the penalty is a DQ.

Generally I agree with you. As much as can spelled out specifically in the rules should be written into the rules.

Best Wishes,
Rick
 
Paul Schofield said:
Presently, players are not obligated to call fouls on themselves. It is not in the rules.
Click to expand...

I gotta channel Kid Dynomite for this one:

Just because the rules don't spell out "It's bob's job to call this foul" doesn't mean it's nobody's job!
It doesn't mean the rule no longer applies! It doesn't mean play passes to the other player as if no foul occurred!

Can't figure out whose job it is to call that foul? Sort it out like adults and people with integrity.
You don't need the rulebook to hold your hand and tell you what common sense dictates.

Common sense: It's IMPLIED that all players are expected to follow the rules at all times,
not "follow the rules only if some third party instructs you to, or only if you know you're being watched
and cannot get away with cheating."

Common sense: The rules DO state that the penalty for X foul is ball-in-hand, and play passes to the other player.
That's explicitly written in black and white.
You choose not to give up ball-in-hand? Then you're not playing by the rules.

As I said in Joey's thread, go ahead and add some lines in the rulebook, if you think it will somehow
sway a few dishonest people into playing correctly.
But please, none of this "honest players are confused because the book never said..." stuff.
That's horseshit and you know it. Nobody's confused. They're cheaters attempting to justify their behavior with
what they THINK is a loophole. Except it doesn't and never did exist.
 
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