The REAL problem with pool
- Thread starter Jerry Forsyth
- Start date
Lots of Ideas
It seems to me that there are a lot of ideas out there. The missing piece seems to always be ...who is going to pay for it. As pool is a largely disjointed concern of free people who are in it for profit, it would seem to me that the answers follow money. Whatever is done has to feather someone's nest or its just not likely to happen regardless of what we think should happen.
Find the money in it for someone, then maybe you will find the way out of the hole.
The biggest way other wise when you're in a hole and you cant get out is to stop digging.
It seems to me that there are a lot of ideas out there. The missing piece seems to always be ...who is going to pay for it. As pool is a largely disjointed concern of free people who are in it for profit, it would seem to me that the answers follow money. Whatever is done has to feather someone's nest or its just not likely to happen regardless of what we think should happen.
Find the money in it for someone, then maybe you will find the way out of the hole.
The biggest way other wise when you're in a hole and you cant get out is to stop digging.
I was talking about pool video and streaming
I don't believe that's taking away that much from pool
Let's face it even at its best its not a great spectator sport\ game to watch
Pool has never relied on TV for its revenue ,
Pool has long lived on the concept of someone bring someone else into the pool room
The APA has been a master of this , that's why the have a 23rule , so players get better handicaps go up , which leads teams having to recruit new lower level players
A higher level player will have a much harder time finding team than a new player will ,
it really is a genus concept when you think about it
Pool has never really been considered a profession ,If kids look at as a profession their parents would be steering them a different direction .
Mine would have told me to buy a pinto station wagon ,something good on gas that can be slept in ,
Putting pool on TV every day of the week won't change much its like putting lipstick on a pig , it will lure in a fat hillbilly or two but that's about it
Pool as far as a recreation and business go , it will get better when the economy gets better the last yr or so more and more turnys have been showing up so maybe it's on the way up ,
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I agree the handicap limit in league pool does facilitate the necessity of bringing new players into the system and its a smart thing to do for a system. I played APA once when I first got back into pool and it was a lot of fun.
Pool Leagues have consistently produced players over time. That I will give you.
We just need a generation exposed to pool that is slipping through our fingers. They are the future of pool. It shouldn't be that we have to wait until they are drinking age to get them involved, that is a shame.
the ones that can pay are also the ones that are the most popular...
Nothing "scared them off," they just don't have anyone promoting the game to them. It's the "squeaky wheel" scenario, it always gets the oil, and the pool industry hasn't squeaked in awhile.
TV puts any commercial on that pays, just like a radio startion puts on any commecial to the company that pays....that's their business, and in a "money driven" society the ones that can pay are also the ones that are the most popular...this is no coincedence.
Saying "TV" doesn't want pool on is silly, they'll put on anything that gets ratings. Saying "TV" doesn't want anything that looks like our "streaming video" quality productions is accurate because these examples are poorly produced and not entertaining.....thus they would be terrible ratings. Even for "Free" these streaming video productions only get 500-2000 people, this is very, very, poor relatively speaking.
The production we did with PRIME SPORTS that's on our web site {right now} got really good ratings. So good that I payed to have three shows put on and they played it 9 times (the other 6 for free). My sponsors and of course the players received a lot of added exposure, and value. We could have easily done this type show once a month.
We have the "Directors Cut" of this show at www.cjwiley.com for $3. if anyone hasn't seen it. The demand for it has been very impressive and I thank everyone for supporting the show, we will put the FINALS up in a few weeks.....it's even better, and Jimmy Mataya is in "rare" form.
Nothing "scared them off," they just don't have anyone promoting the game to them. It's the "squeaky wheel" scenario, it always gets the oil, and the pool industry hasn't squeaked in awhile.
TV puts any commercial on that pays, just like a radio startion puts on any commecial to the company that pays....that's their business, and in a "money driven" society the ones that can pay are also the ones that are the most popular...this is no coincedence.
Saying "TV" doesn't want pool on is silly, they'll put on anything that gets ratings. Saying "TV" doesn't want anything that looks like our "streaming video" quality productions is accurate because these examples are poorly produced and not entertaining.....thus they would be terrible ratings. Even for "Free" these streaming video productions only get 500-2000 people, this is very, very, poor relatively speaking.
The production we did with PRIME SPORTS that's on our web site {right now} got really good ratings. So good that I payed to have three shows put on and they played it 9 times (the other 6 for free). My sponsors and of course the players received a lot of added exposure, and value. We could have easily done this type show once a month.
We have the "Directors Cut" of this show at www.cjwiley.com for $3. if anyone hasn't seen it. The demand for it has been very impressive and I thank everyone for supporting the show, we will put the FINALS up in a few weeks.....it's even better, and Jimmy Mataya is in "rare" form.
Nothing "scared them off," they just don't have anyone promoting the game to them. It's the "squeaky wheel" scenario, it always gets the oil, and the pool industry hasn't squeaked in awhile.
TV puts any commercial on that pays, just like a radio startion puts on any commecial to the company that pays....that's their business, and in a "money driven" society the ones that can pay are also the ones that are the most popular...this is no coincedence.
Saying "TV" doesn't want pool on is silly, they'll put on anything that gets ratings. Saying "TV" doesn't want anything that looks like our "streaming video" quality productions is accurate because these examples are poorly produced and not entertaining.....thus they would be terrible ratings. Even for "Free" these streaming video productions only get 500-2000 people, this is very, very, poor relatively speaking.
The production we did with PRIME SPORTS that's on our web site {right now} got really good ratings. So good that I payed to have three shows put on and they played it 9 times (the other 6 for free). My sponsors and of course the players received a lot of added exposure, and value. We could have easily done this type show once a month.
We have the "Directors Cut" of this show at www.cjwiley.com for $3. if anyone hasn't seen it. The demand for it has been very impressive and I thank everyone for supporting the show, we will put the FINALS up in a few weeks.....it's even better, and Jimmy Mataya is in "rare" form.
didnt say anything scarred them off, they dont scare easy anyways....
I just think they dont believe that a pool movie would have the ROI that they expect.
A new sports network that would be interested in pool would be better than a movie or ESPN, 8 days a week, that's the real solution.
The REAL problem with pool.
Pool room owners alone are the fault of declining interests.
They, like all other business owners, play only on a one way street and never on a two way avenue.
In the past, there wasn’t a lot of competition for the entertainment dollar but now there is and people who have invested a lot of their personal resources into this game are finding out that there isn’t going to be a return on their investment.
Recently, a young man won what some would call a large sum of money in a national tournament. Yes, it was a handsome amount; however, it didn’t even begin to reimburse him for all the expenses that got him there.
The room owners are the ones that took all these expenses for themselves and gave back almost nothing to the players that have devoted themselves to game down through the years. They put nothing into the tournaments or even in the more entertainment aspects of the game.
While at the same time these core players are dying off and their not being replaced because the new breed is not going to make an investment where’s there is no hope for a reasonable return. They quickly leave for more profitable endeavors and they don’t come back, ever.
On the other hand, room owners in my state and around the country have done rather well and some extremely well while claiming or complaining that business is terrible. How is it that these poor undernourished souls have managed to stay in business for twenty years or more while “business is terrible?”
The owners have made their money. They don’t care. They retire and watch the new suckers pay and pay and, the game…like the beat….goes on.
But this little song is fading away. This is why the owners have expanded to include bar service, restaurants and poker…etc. which brings up another interesting point…who the hell is paying for all this expansion if business is so terrible?
The banks won’t lend the money to failing business without a solid investment by the owners.
What to take a guess where the money is coming from? Do you really need to guess?
Think about it.
Pool room owners alone are the fault of declining interests.
They, like all other business owners, play only on a one way street and never on a two way avenue.
In the past, there wasn’t a lot of competition for the entertainment dollar but now there is and people who have invested a lot of their personal resources into this game are finding out that there isn’t going to be a return on their investment.
Recently, a young man won what some would call a large sum of money in a national tournament. Yes, it was a handsome amount; however, it didn’t even begin to reimburse him for all the expenses that got him there.
The room owners are the ones that took all these expenses for themselves and gave back almost nothing to the players that have devoted themselves to game down through the years. They put nothing into the tournaments or even in the more entertainment aspects of the game.
While at the same time these core players are dying off and their not being replaced because the new breed is not going to make an investment where’s there is no hope for a reasonable return. They quickly leave for more profitable endeavors and they don’t come back, ever.
On the other hand, room owners in my state and around the country have done rather well and some extremely well while claiming or complaining that business is terrible. How is it that these poor undernourished souls have managed to stay in business for twenty years or more while “business is terrible?”
The owners have made their money. They don’t care. They retire and watch the new suckers pay and pay and, the game…like the beat….goes on.
But this little song is fading away. This is why the owners have expanded to include bar service, restaurants and poker…etc. which brings up another interesting point…who the hell is paying for all this expansion if business is so terrible?
The banks won’t lend the money to failing business without a solid investment by the owners.
What to take a guess where the money is coming from? Do you really need to guess?
Think about it.
didnt say anything scarred them off, they dont scare easy anyways....
I just think they dont believe that a pool movie would have the ROI that they expect.
A new sports network that would be interested in pool would be better than a movie or ESPN, 8 days a week, that's the real solution.
You are absolutely correct if it did they would be running reruns just like old sitcoms that still produce #s , it's certainly not like the haven't tried
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Matthew McConaughey and Matt Damon Star in 'The Color of Money 2"
my mistake, I thought you said you wondered what scared them off......a new sports network would be better than a well established one like ESPN with a Universe of over 60,000,000 viewers??? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this topic for now.
I also think a great pool movie with Matthew McConaughey and Matt Damon
would be better than a up and coming sports station (Like FOX SPORTS for instance)....our present situation, with "streaming video" is going out to 500 - 2000 people that already play and follow pool....NO NEW BLOOD.....a movie would go out to 40,000,000 potential "new blood" customers to the billiard industry....this seems like a "no brainer" to stimulate immediate growth in our industry.
didnt say anything scarred them off, they dont scare easy anyways....
I just think they dont believe that a pool movie would have the ROI that they expect.
A new sports network that would be interested in pool would be better than a movie or ESPN, 8 days a week, that's the real solution.
my mistake, I thought you said you wondered what scared them off...
...a new sports network would be better than a well established one like ESPN with a Universe of over 60,000,000 viewers??? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this topic for now.I also think a great pool movie with Matthew McConaughey and Matt Damon
Actually it was, for nearly 100 years, THE most important game played in the U.S.
I can name many players who would heartily disagree.
They were paid a yearly salary, plus their tournament winnings, plus half the door receipts, plus bets. They made damn good money.
........
The problem is not as simple as TV, or women, or alcohol, or smoke, or whatever...
It's a multi faceted issue that begins with money, and ends with money.
That said, I can tell you with confidence that the biggest hurdle for pool is gaining a reputable media outlet of some kind. Something other than print (and text). And something that doesn't cost the patron anything to enjoy.
TV is one, radio is one, and the internet has the potential to trump both of them if done right. But, don't be lulled into believing that a gimmick such as a weekly show or a movie will make a difference in the long run, because the problems run deeper than that.
At the core of the problem is information. The general public and even regular pool players can't tell you, with few exceptions, the name of more than a few major players.
They can't tell you what and where the major tournies are. They can't tell you more than a few cue makers, they don't know the difference between billiards and bosh.
The general public doesnt know the games, the rules, the shots.
They don't know the difference between a horse blanket and good quality table cloth.
(They still call it felt)
And the industry at large suffers the same ailments. They have no place to advertise and inform the public of their wares other than print and banner ads on specialty sites and in publications that the general public never sees.
When players win tournaments, does the papparazi beat a path to their door for an interview? No, they take their check (hopefully) and simply go home. They might, if they're lucky, see a photo or two of themselves online and a paragraph here or there, but that's it. There is very little "fame" to aspire to or gain anymore.
Football fans can tell you the rules, the players, who is injured, who got caught drinking and driving, who the coaches are, who got drafted, what time the game starts, and where its being played, and maybe even how many people attended the game...because the information is there, reliably, and they don't pay one cent for it. They point the remote, turn on the radio, or click a mouse and there it is.
my mistake, I thought you said you wondered what scared them off...
I also think a great pool movie with Matthew McConaughey and Matt Damonwould be better than a up and coming sports station (Like FOX SPORTS for instance)....our present situation, with "streaming video" is going out to 500 - 2000 people that already play and follow pool....NO NEW BLOOD.....a movie would go out to 40,000,000 potential "new blood" customers to the billiard industry....this seems like a "no brainer" to stimulate immediate growth in our industry.
LMFAO ,, Do you think everyone outside of pool lives in a closet . There are pool tables in bars , rec centers schools and homes all over the country , it's not some well kept secret , the potential for new blood would only be a fraction of that number
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Ok I will bite ,start naming who they are and what their earnings were
and we will compare that with other top professions
What 100 yrs are you referring certainly not any time after real sports were being played
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You said pool was never considered a profession.
So, what do you suppose Mosconi did for a living?
Jimmy Caras?
Ralph Greenleaf?
Willie Hoppe?
Frank Ives?
Jake Schaefer?
(The list goes on)
As one example, Jake Schaefer was being paid a yearly base salary by Brunswick of $3000 in 1895. This equates to over $80,000 today. And of course this is before his winnings, sometimes up to $5k or more at a time.
You said pool was never a major sport.
In the context of your statement, you included pool as a sport.
Baseball leagues weren't even formed until the 1870s and every other sport/game came after that. 1776-1876 pool ruled. News of major matches was sent via telegraph all across the country live as it happened. Billiard news was frequently front page news in the papers. I'd say that's pretty major.
And even after 1870 pool was played more than any other game OR sport in the country for many decades. In 1920 there were 2000 billiard rooms in Chicago and over 3000 in New York. I'd say that's pretty major.
Nonetheless, I understood the point you were getting at, just thought I'd set the record straight.
I hesitate to comment. It sounds negative. It's not meant to.
This thread is exasperating. Everyone is pointing blame everywhere like no one ever did anything to help this sport. I get what you are all saying. "Everyone did it wrong."
Does anyone here think that it is possible to successfully promote and bring back Pacman? I see some parallels here.
I see a need to look inward. IMO It is going to take a young person with an imagination to move beyond what our generation has done and rework this sport into something that is appealing to match these highly interactive times.
Pool must change for poolrooms to thrive.
This thread is exasperating. Everyone is pointing blame everywhere like no one ever did anything to help this sport. I get what you are all saying. "Everyone did it wrong."
Does anyone here think that it is possible to successfully promote and bring back Pacman? I see some parallels here.
I see a need to look inward. IMO It is going to take a young person with an imagination to move beyond what our generation has done and rework this sport into something that is appealing to match these highly interactive times.
Pool must change for poolrooms to thrive.
my mistake, I thought you said you wondered what scared them off...
I also think a great pool movie with Matthew McConaughey and Matt Damonwould be better than a up and coming sports station (Like FOX SPORTS for instance)....our present situation, with "streaming video" is going out to 500 - 2000 people that already play and follow pool....NO NEW BLOOD.....a movie would go out to 40,000,000 potential "new blood" customers to the billiard industry....this seems like a "no brainer" to stimulate immediate growth in our industry.
I said "scared them off" didnt mean it litterly-damn keyboard, its hard to express myself sometimes. my bad!!!
:smile::smile::smile:
Billiards needs classy drama with respect, entertainment factor, and a new set of characters.
"Out of Sight, Out of Mind"
If the people that play pool are diminishing at a rate of 10% per year (the theme of this thread***), it may as well be a secret.
Without TV coverage I would go out on a limb and state (with confidence) EVERY sport would regress at a rate of 10% per year. "Out of Sight, Out of Mind"
If the people that play pool are diminishing at a rate of 10% per year (the theme of this thread***), it may as well be a secret.
Without TV coverage I would go out on a limb and state (with confidence) EVERY sport would regress at a rate of 10% per year. "Out of Sight, Out of Mind"
Another viewpoint !
The major hurdle with pool, IMHO, is there are about 6 different size tables, on which we play about 75 different games, with 100 different sets of rules..and that's not even counting snooker !
Until we get a viable governing body, (not the BCA, or some Pro players, with zero business experience) and accept ONE SINGLE GAME, (like golf, tennis, bowling and every other sport/game has done).. there is zero chance of ANYONE looking seriously at pool !... Bonus Ball should have been a lesson..It was just what we DIDN'T need !..Another game to confuse potential fan's and sponsor's !
The only game that will ever attract a diversified viewing audience, (outside of us hardcore 'pool nuts') is 8 BALL...Everybody already knows the game... It has been around for 80 years or so, and has out-lasted EVERY OTHER POOL GAME, for acceptance and popularity... And with some very minor tweaking, (or not) it is already a great game to play, at the pro level !
My favorite game, by far, is One Pocket !..But I am realistic enough to see that one pocket, 14.1, or even 9/10 ball, will NEVER be accepted by 'Joe Six Pack'... Or by any other casual viewer's, that big money sponsors are hoping to entice !
Trudeau (and the IPT), may have made a lot of 'pool enemies' ...But like every other smart money project KT gets involved in, he DOES do his homework !...Guess which game he chose ?...If it were not for some unforeseen changes in the gambling laws, we might be playing some $1,000,000 1st place 8-ball tournaments, TODAY !
The major hurdle with pool, IMHO, is there are about 6 different size tables, on which we play about 75 different games, with 100 different sets of rules..and that's not even counting snooker !
Until we get a viable governing body, (not the BCA, or some Pro players, with zero business experience) and accept ONE SINGLE GAME, (like golf, tennis, bowling and every other sport/game has done).. there is zero chance of ANYONE looking seriously at pool !... Bonus Ball should have been a lesson..It was just what we DIDN'T need !..Another game to confuse potential fan's and sponsor's !
The only game that will ever attract a diversified viewing audience, (outside of us hardcore 'pool nuts') is 8 BALL...Everybody already knows the game... It has been around for 80 years or so, and has out-lasted EVERY OTHER POOL GAME, for acceptance and popularity... And with some very minor tweaking, (or not) it is already a great game to play, at the pro level !
My favorite game, by far, is One Pocket !..But I am realistic enough to see that one pocket, 14.1, or even 9/10 ball, will NEVER be accepted by 'Joe Six Pack'... Or by any other casual viewer's, that big money sponsors are hoping to entice !
Trudeau (and the IPT), may have made a lot of 'pool enemies' ...But like every other smart money project KT gets involved in, he DOES do his homework !...Guess which game he chose ?...If it were not for some unforeseen changes in the gambling laws, we might be playing some $1,000,000 1st place 8-ball tournaments, TODAY !
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