Nor do I with any the 30 dollar shafts I buy on ebay .... taper back to a 20" pro taper at 12.5mm and put a nice Tiger Emerald tip on.
i dont understand the hype about ld shafts
- Thread starter lorider
- Start date
Nor do I with any the 30 dollar shafts I buy on ebay .... taper back to a 20" pro taper at 12.5mm and put a nice Tiger Emerald tip on.
Same here. I played with a standard Lucasi shaft for about six months, a standard Schon for another six months after that, and then switched to a Predator and didn't look back. One some shots I adjust very slightly, but on 95% of shots I don't (consciously) adjust at all.
Last edited:
this is Ronnie Alcano's 314 fitted on a cue made by a local cuemaker.
http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/428232_266358440106157_918123622_n.jpg
Roberto Gomez and Bustamante also keep predator shafts that they use occasionally.
Last edited:
Honestly, I've never had any issue with deflection. I have a 20 some year old McDermott and a newer G Core. I've tired to intentionally cause deflection with both, they seem to put the cue where I'm aiming.
I prefer the feel of the old maple shaft. The cue ball seems to go further than I want with the G Core, but I'm sure that can be solved with more table time.
I prefer the feel of the old maple shaft. The cue ball seems to go further than I want with the G Core, but I'm sure that can be solved with more table time.
RBC
Deceased
I love these threads!
First, a few facts.
Lamination of cue shafts doesn't have much direct effect on cue ball squirt, but it does allow, at least in our case, us to do the things we do to reduce cue ball squirt.
The lamination of cue shafts is primarily for strength, stability and consistency.
Other than a jump shot, there aren't any shots that I have seen that can be performed with a normal or high squirt shaft that can't be performed with a low squirt shaft.
Low Deflection, or more correctly low cue ball squirt, is not hype or marketing. It does exist and can be easily demonstrated to anyone. Many players feel it helps them to play better, some don't. That's no different than tips. Or wrapped versus wrap less, etc.
If you have ever changed cues, and had to "get used to it" by playing with it for a while, you were most likely adjusting for different cue ball squirt. You didn't really think about it, you just adjusted to it. Adjusting to changes in squirt aren't that difficult, unless you make them difficult.
Yes, you have to compensate for the small amount of cue ball squirt with LD shafts just like you have to do for regular shafts. Yes, when you compensate correctly, you play like a champion. LD comes in to play when you don't compensate correctly. The margin of error is much more forgiving, just like cavity backed golf clubs. The irony is that the top players of the world, who make far fewer aiming mistakes than the rest of us, get the least amount of benefit from low squirt equipment. Yet, many of them still use LD equipment. Myself, on the other hand, need all the help I can get.
Many more "pro's" and top level players use LD than most think. Even sometimes when they play with someone else's cue. I recall a conversation over dinner at the SBE several years ago. My business partner, Don Owen, asked a very well known top "pro" player what the one biggest thing was that made it hard for him to make a living. His statement was "low deflection shafts". His position was that, before LD shafts, there was a hand full of top players and he could travel the world and always have a shot at winning and would always make enough to cover his expenses. But once the LD shafts craze hit, no matter where he went, most of the field had a shot at placing very high, and keeping this player out of the cash.
That's just a few tid bits of information that I've gathered over the years that may help with some of the questions being asked.
First, a few facts.
Lamination of cue shafts doesn't have much direct effect on cue ball squirt, but it does allow, at least in our case, us to do the things we do to reduce cue ball squirt.
The lamination of cue shafts is primarily for strength, stability and consistency.
Other than a jump shot, there aren't any shots that I have seen that can be performed with a normal or high squirt shaft that can't be performed with a low squirt shaft.
Low Deflection, or more correctly low cue ball squirt, is not hype or marketing. It does exist and can be easily demonstrated to anyone. Many players feel it helps them to play better, some don't. That's no different than tips. Or wrapped versus wrap less, etc.
If you have ever changed cues, and had to "get used to it" by playing with it for a while, you were most likely adjusting for different cue ball squirt. You didn't really think about it, you just adjusted to it. Adjusting to changes in squirt aren't that difficult, unless you make them difficult.
Yes, you have to compensate for the small amount of cue ball squirt with LD shafts just like you have to do for regular shafts. Yes, when you compensate correctly, you play like a champion. LD comes in to play when you don't compensate correctly. The margin of error is much more forgiving, just like cavity backed golf clubs. The irony is that the top players of the world, who make far fewer aiming mistakes than the rest of us, get the least amount of benefit from low squirt equipment. Yet, many of them still use LD equipment. Myself, on the other hand, need all the help I can get.
Many more "pro's" and top level players use LD than most think. Even sometimes when they play with someone else's cue. I recall a conversation over dinner at the SBE several years ago. My business partner, Don Owen, asked a very well known top "pro" player what the one biggest thing was that made it hard for him to make a living. His statement was "low deflection shafts". His position was that, before LD shafts, there was a hand full of top players and he could travel the world and always have a shot at winning and would always make enough to cover his expenses. But once the LD shafts craze hit, no matter where he went, most of the field had a shot at placing very high, and keeping this player out of the cash.
That's just a few tid bits of information that I've gathered over the years that may help with some of the questions being asked.
People saying it's all hype... there's an easy 5 minute test you can do,
to confirm that the shaft does what it's supposed to do, which is just reduce deflection.
If any ad tells you it will help you play like a pro, make balls better, etc... obviously that's marketing BS.
You can't hold that against them though, the ad for my car implied I'd get laid more often if I bought it.
That's just advertising.
But the basic idea - that it changes where you must aim with spin - is fact, not fiction.
It can be confirmed in 5 minutes. Not hype or BS. If it didn't actually change anything,
then the adjustment would be automatic and we'd never see posts like lorider's.
lorider, you're coming up on 60 you say?
I think past a certain point shotmaking and muscle memory are grooved in.
Like if you play with a certain stroke for over 10 years, you're probably doomed if you try to change it.
You probably spent... what, 40 years?? aiming with a higher deflection cue.
If changing after 10 years is difficult, changing after 40 is pretty much impossible.
You can't undo 40 years of aiming "this way" with one year of aiming "that way". Not a chance.
I wanna add something else and it's gonna sound really mean and arrogant. But I remember
in that APA stats thread, you're a 5 after like 500 league matches. That tells me there are just some things
in pool you flat out don't get. Deflection might be one of them. Sorry man, just being honest.
I'd say most APA 5's aren't going to really get much out of an LD shaft.
You keep looking for equipment fixes... you said you tried like a zillion different tips.
Forget the tip and forget the shaft, just work on your game. Play with a viking, that's fine...
get all the equipment excuses out of your system now.
And then figure out what's really prevented you from winning half your matches.
to confirm that the shaft does what it's supposed to do, which is just reduce deflection.
If any ad tells you it will help you play like a pro, make balls better, etc... obviously that's marketing BS.
You can't hold that against them though, the ad for my car implied I'd get laid more often if I bought it.
That's just advertising.
But the basic idea - that it changes where you must aim with spin - is fact, not fiction.
It can be confirmed in 5 minutes. Not hype or BS. If it didn't actually change anything,
then the adjustment would be automatic and we'd never see posts like lorider's.
lorider, you're coming up on 60 you say?
I think past a certain point shotmaking and muscle memory are grooved in.
Like if you play with a certain stroke for over 10 years, you're probably doomed if you try to change it.
You probably spent... what, 40 years?? aiming with a higher deflection cue.
If changing after 10 years is difficult, changing after 40 is pretty much impossible.
You can't undo 40 years of aiming "this way" with one year of aiming "that way". Not a chance.
I wanna add something else and it's gonna sound really mean and arrogant. But I remember
in that APA stats thread, you're a 5 after like 500 league matches. That tells me there are just some things
in pool you flat out don't get. Deflection might be one of them. Sorry man, just being honest.
I'd say most APA 5's aren't going to really get much out of an LD shaft.
You keep looking for equipment fixes... you said you tried like a zillion different tips.
Forget the tip and forget the shaft, just work on your game. Play with a viking, that's fine...
get all the equipment excuses out of your system now.
And then figure out what's really prevented you from winning half your matches.
Last edited:
Serious players get good using what ever and sticking with it.
Serious players also understand going outside center cb.
Predator (ld shafts)shafts take the guess work out of a lot of guessing.
Do you like guessing a lot?Are you seriouis about your game?
Serious players also understand going outside center cb.
Predator (ld shafts)shafts take the guess work out of a lot of guessing.
Do you like guessing a lot?Are you seriouis about your game?
EXACTLY RIGHT.
Every cue has some squirt. You have to find the adjustment and deal with it.
Every arrow can hit the target if the Indian knows how to aim.
I started playing the game when I was 11. I'm now 29. I played most of my life with a regular shaft. I was never able to really progress. I could never get used to compensating for the squirt. I finally got to the point where I could afford getting an OB Classic Pro and it was a total game changer for me. My game has progressed more in the last 6 months than it had in the last 6 years. I owe quite a bit of that to my improved practice routine, but the shaft has definitely helped me because I was terrible at compensating for the squirt in the first place. This has made my practice more productive. If you were good at accounting for the squirt you may not have a shared experience, but for me I'll never switch back. Just my opinion and observations.
Sounds like you proved that there is a pretty big difference between shafts.
Now whether or not that difference suits you, your game and your ability to realize any advantage is a different story but clearly a difference that great will allow that option to a great number of other people.
AKA, many do "get" it.
I use OB 2's and prefer them for several reasons. First, I like the 11.75 mm size. Second, I play with custom cues. My customs all have either 5/16 x 14 or 3/8x11. I bought 2 OB 2's each for those 2 pin sizes. My customs all weigh within .1 ounce of each other. I can easily switch playing from one cue to the other now with no appreciable difference.
More importantly, I try to play the game as close the the verticle axis of the CB as possible. However, I believe everyone accepts that hitting the CB precisely at the center just doesn't happen. Therefore, there is always small amounts of deflection occurring. I believe the OB 2 pretty much negate the minor deflection from these off center hits. When I do use English, with the OB I don't have to factor in substantial deflection. By primarily using BHE, I generally don't have to consider it at all.
I think someone who spins the ball on nearly every shot might struggle adapting to an LD shaft. At least at first. Perhaps an LD shaft simply isn't the right tool for them. I believe an LD shaft would benefit most players, however, to each their own. I have evaluated many LD shafts and found OB the best for me. The Z2 was a close second. Nothing else came close. I have hit some balls with the new Mezz LD shaft, it may give OB a run for their money.
IMHO, just like in golf, the shaft is far and away the most important part of the pool cue. The tip changes the feel but I don't believe it appreciably alters the functionality. The butt is for weight and balance. I just happen to like pretty wood.
More importantly, I try to play the game as close the the verticle axis of the CB as possible. However, I believe everyone accepts that hitting the CB precisely at the center just doesn't happen. Therefore, there is always small amounts of deflection occurring. I believe the OB 2 pretty much negate the minor deflection from these off center hits. When I do use English, with the OB I don't have to factor in substantial deflection. By primarily using BHE, I generally don't have to consider it at all.
I think someone who spins the ball on nearly every shot might struggle adapting to an LD shaft. At least at first. Perhaps an LD shaft simply isn't the right tool for them. I believe an LD shaft would benefit most players, however, to each their own. I have evaluated many LD shafts and found OB the best for me. The Z2 was a close second. Nothing else came close. I have hit some balls with the new Mezz LD shaft, it may give OB a run for their money.
IMHO, just like in golf, the shaft is far and away the most important part of the pool cue. The tip changes the feel but I don't believe it appreciably alters the functionality. The butt is for weight and balance. I just happen to like pretty wood.
I'll take Chris and his plywood for $50.
I tried them and didn't like them either.
One shot that I had to give up using a Predator shaft was the masse shot. I don't shoot jump shots but I feel I am pretty accurate with a masse or slight masse. I am sure if I was a better player, I could do it using a Predator shaft. Other players at my speed has commented the same thing.
One thing I did like about it, was I used that same shaft on multiple cues. They all played the same with the same shaft.
Ken
One shot that I had to give up using a Predator shaft was the masse shot. I don't shoot jump shots but I feel I am pretty accurate with a masse or slight masse. I am sure if I was a better player, I could do it using a Predator shaft. Other players at my speed has commented the same thing.
One thing I did like about it, was I used that same shaft on multiple cues. They all played the same with the same shaft.
Ken
Thats all well and good and I agree that adjusting to an LD shaft probably wouldn't be that difficult. But .... that's not my issue with them.
My issue is what the hell makes these thing worth 2 or 3 hundred dollars (other than people buy them) when I can buy perfectly good rock maple shafts for 30 or 40 bucks, taper them myself with a homemade lathe, and put a nice 4 dollar Tiger Emerald tip on them?
That's the real issue in my mind. Unless you have money to burn, what makes that wood any better? Mind you I've been playing and using these shafts for MANY years with no issue. And ... should one occur, what's the big deal? 30 bucks stings much less then shitcanning a 300 dollar shaft.
That's the hype ... the price ... not the amount of deflection because missing by less is still missing.
Give Bartam a call and ask him about his LD shaft? Or is he not a "real" pool player ? I heard he might even play you a set or two ....
Or the other great players that chose to not have to compensate on many shots, and only a little on some shots.... just easier for some folks to use it. But a gimmick,,, c'mon, that argument is lame at best....
Last edited:
I've tried Lo Deflection shafts...and I just can't get used to them either...
I also have a problem with the idea of buying a very nice custom cue, and using a generic production shaft on a high dollar custom cue...
...and now, I'm hearing that some of the lo deflection shafts are made in China...so, it is even less appealing for me to even consider putting one on my custom cues...
...and being made in China, with china labor rates, and compared to the resale prices that they're asking for here in the USA...you know, they're making a killing...(I've heard this about Predator...I'm now wondering if the Predator butts are made in China...???? can anyone answer that...??? for us...???)
***Hey Royce,
Thanks for correcting my thoughts...you and I have met in Dallas...thus, I felt that your cues were made locally...
***And also, thanks for correcting my thoughts about recycled wood....
***And Yes, I certainly understand that the local USA Custom Cue Builders who have their own Lo Deflection shafts, are certainly made here in the states...
Edited: to be more accurate with my thoughts, after further replies have been received.
To All others...I stand corrected...!!! and I love learning about the entire cue building processes...!!!
Thanks for all the feedback...!!!
I also have a problem with the idea of buying a very nice custom cue, and using a generic production shaft on a high dollar custom cue...
...and now, I'm hearing that some of the lo deflection shafts are made in China...so, it is even less appealing for me to even consider putting one on my custom cues...
...and being made in China, with china labor rates, and compared to the resale prices that they're asking for here in the USA...you know, they're making a killing...(I've heard this about Predator...I'm now wondering if the Predator butts are made in China...???? can anyone answer that...??? for us...???)
***Hey Royce,
Thanks for correcting my thoughts...you and I have met in Dallas...thus, I felt that your cues were made locally...
***And also, thanks for correcting my thoughts about recycled wood....
***And Yes, I certainly understand that the local USA Custom Cue Builders who have their own Lo Deflection shafts, are certainly made here in the states...
Edited: to be more accurate with my thoughts, after further replies have been received.
To All others...I stand corrected...!!! and I love learning about the entire cue building processes...!!!
Thanks for all the feedback...!!!
Last edited:
RBC
Deceased
Ken
I've had many people think that LD shafts won't masse, which simply is incorrect.
When you line up a masse shot with a regular cue shaft, you don't aim where you want the cue ball to go because you have to allow for so much cue ball squirt. When you line up a masse with an LD shaft, you just aim to completely miss the interfering ball.
A masse is a spin shot. Any shaft that will spin the ball can shoot a masse. If anything, because LD typically spins the cue ball a little more than a regular shaft, they may actually do it better.