Vintage Minnesota Fats Tables

[His Boy Elroy]

Sunday I started a thread in the " Pool Table and Accessories" section. It
went something like this:

The other day during a discussion in the forums I mentioned that I played on a 1971 Minnesota Fats pool table. Not everyone was impressed. Seems tables with Fats name from the 70's up until today were and are sold in department stores and they max out at $1300. We bought ours at a dealership that sold Fats tables exclusively. My dad paid $600 for it which when adjusted for inflation translates to $3460 today. Does anybody know anything about these tables that were sold at dealerships at that time?.........

A bunch of folks read the post but 0 replied so yesterday I started the same thread in the main forum. During this thread which started yesterday and is still going on as we speak I several times made the distinction between the department store models and the quality model that we own. I staunchly defended the quality of the table we owned. It's possible there was a misunderstanding there. I'm not a pool table expert. When I insisted it was quality table what I should have said is that I insist it was an expensive dealership bought model as opposed to a cheap department store model. in retrospect I realize that while all expensive dealership tables are supposed to be quality, what is supposed may not be the case and as I said, I'm not a pool table expert.

So; I'll stop using the word "quality" and will now staunchly defend that it was dealership sold and it was more expensive and therefore it was of supposed superior quality than the department store models. Similarly, Trek, Giant, and Cannondale bicycles are dealership sold, more expensive, and therefore of supposed superior quality than department store bicycles. I'm clarifying that I'm now changing my wording and from mow on I'll simply use the words "supposed superior quality."

Posters chiming in seemed to have no knowledge whatsoever of the supposed superior quality Fats tables. They had department store etched in their minds when Fats tables were mentioned and I kept insisting that quality Fats tables existed. Once again I should have insisted that supposed quality Fats tables existed. But I'm sure been if I had said that, they would have still have had department store etched in their minds. A few posters comceded there may have been expensive dealership Fats tables sold, but that they were of low quality. They gave no reasons. My perception was that they believed themselves to be highly knowledgeable about tables and if expensive, quality, dealership Fats tables existed, they would know about it. Since they didn't know about it, they must be of low quality

Mr.Bond from the Chicago Billiard Museum showed up. He said Fats was employed by a pool table manufacturing company in 1964. This company had a line of 30 tables ranging in price from $250 to $3000. This company began to slide downhill in 1982 and eventually went out of business.

Finally, a mechanic from this side of the aisle posted. He's the reason I am now using the phrase "supposed superior quality".........

So; if any of you folks are aware of the supposed superior quality Minnesota Fats tables, sold in dealerships around 1971, I'd appreciate your opinions on them. Thank you.

 

[rexus31]

Do you have any pics of the table in question?

 

[His Boy Elroy]

I'm working on finding someone with a smart phone that can post pics.

 

[Mr. Bond]

i posted some info on the thread in the main forum

 

[realkingcobra]

Come on mechanic's, I know plenty of you have worked on the table refered to above, give your feed back to this poster on this table:smile:

 

[His Boy Elroy]

Well, you can't play on a table for 42 years without becoming awful fond of it, no matter the quality. Nevertheless; I can be critical of it

Here's what's bad about it: the ball bounces off 5 of 6 cushions very slowly. In fact what started this whole thing is last weekend I was complaing in a post that the table plays slow so I put 760 on it and it still plays slow. After convincing posters that I put the cloth on right side up and pulled it tight they told me the cloth was probably mighty fast and the problem was probably with the cushions.

I still have the original cushions on. So I decided to change the cushions. Then I was told by a poster that he has cushions on his Brunswick from 1968 and they're still hard. He said if they're hard it doesn't matter if they're old. The only reason to change them is if they're soft.

My cushions are stii very hard. So I did some experimenting and discovered that when the ball bounced off 5 of the 6 cushions, there was a buzz, or vibrations which indicated that things were not quite stable - maybe a little flimsy. On 1 of the rails there was no buzz at all. The ball bounced best on that one. The ball bounced the slowest off the rail with the biggest buzz

I then thought maybe there was looseness in regards to the cushion and the GLUE and the structure it's glued to. I determined that's not the case. I now believe the culprit to be general flimsiness of the solid structures; those solid structures being the structure the cushion is glued to combined with the frame. It's just become generally flimsy

What do I like about it: everything else. ( not that the slow rails aren't a huge issue) It has 3 pieces of one inch slate. The ball rolls very true. I retains it's levelness extremely well. It is perfectly level right now. In 42 years it hasn't become un- level more than 5 times. The ball rolls very true down the rail. It has a ball return that we've never had a single problem with. Why they decided to have a one inch shelf with 4 1/2 pockets I can't figure out, but if I hit the ball in cleanly, I know I hit it well. So I really don't need anybody to tell me what I have. I know what I have. The only problem is the flimsy infrastructure leading to slow rails. Although it is the only problem, it is a very large problem as far as the playability of the table. This is the case after 42 years. When we first bought it the infrastructure solidly supported the rail. So as I said, the whole point of the main forum thread was to convince folks that Fats sold a line of expensive supposed quality tables along with their inexpensive line which most posters believe is the only line of Fats tables. I just should have used the phrase supposed quality instead of quality and we could have avoided some of the brouhaha. If the situation with the rail causes you to judge the table as being of low quality, I respect yore opinion

Real King Cobra,
I hope we didn't get off on the wrong foot. I few private posters have informed me that you really know your stuff.

 

[rexus31]

All of this nonsense is useless without detailed pics of the table and it's construction. As RKC pointed out, having slate doesn't make it a quality table. It could have particle board rails and that's why it banks crappy. More facts and pictures are needed to make an accurate assessment, but I tend to agree with others that the table is not very sought after and is more than likely poorly constructed.

 

[fastone371]

Elroy, I just started playing pool almost 2 years ago again after 30 years, and I too had the chance to get my boyhood pool table which I gladly did. When I was a kid I did not know pool halls even existed, as far as I knew there were 2 kinds of tables, slate and not slate, if you had a slate table in your basement you had a good table. I did notice that bar tables were faster than ours when I would go to a bar with my parents, but I figured that was just because the table was smaller, we had an 8' table. So anyway, almost 2 years ago I get this table and set it up in my basement and it plays terrible at best. I am comparing it to a Valley cause Im in a bar league. So I stop by our local Billiard store and ask the owner whats wrong? After explaining the brand of table he tells me it will never play good cause the rails dont bolt down thru the slate, which I know to be a fact cause I set it up. I am a custom metal fabricator and I figure there is certainly something I can do to improve the basic structure. After way too much time screwing around with it I cant improve the way it plays. During this time I also went to a pool hall, I was stunned by how beatiful the table there played, so I took a good look at it. I then went home and read everything I could on the interweb about tables and why some play good and some dont. After becoming informed I find a Gold Crown on Craigslist by accident while looking at an Olhausen. I imediately went and bought the Gold Crown, it was in pristine condition and came with a floor standing Bunswick cue stand, many 1 piece cues, balls, and cover etc., all for less than what I can buy a Hoppe Titlist that came with the deal. I recovered the table, had the rails modified, and new cushions installed. I think I still have less than 2k in the table including purchase price and I could not be happier. It was a great educating tool as I set both tables up myself and now I see the difference between what a quality table is and what I would call a not very nice table and difference is incredible. There is no MDF or plywood on my Gold Crown and many of the fasteners are inslalled so that they do not thread into wood which I believe increases structual rigidity. The way the rails attach on the GC is much more stable and the whole table itself is much, much heavier. But the GC is also a commercial table. I will probably be belittled for this but if I could only fit a 7' table in my basement I would get a used Valley just because it is a commercial table. My mom came over and played pool at our house, the first she said was "hey, that is not my old table". I then told her what a P.O.S. her old table was and that I had to burn it in our burn barrel which I in fact did (we are in the country and can burn garbage). She told me when my parents originally bought it they were under the impression it was supposed to be a good table, it was not a "cheap" one and they did buy it from a billiards store FWIW.

 

[wineslob]

My cushions are stii very hard. So I did some experimenting and discovered that when the ball bounced off 5 of the 6 cushions, there was a buzz, or vibrations which indicated that things were not quite stable - maybe a little flimsy. On 1 of the rails there was no buzz at all. The ball bounced best on that one. The ball bounced the slowest off the rail with the biggest buzz

Your cushions are dead, Jim.

 

[Ralph Kramden]

Your cushions are dead, Jim.

His Boy.... with the CB in the kitchen, you should hit at least 4 cushions the full length of the table.
The CB should hit the foot rail, back to the head rail, back to the foot rail, and back to the head rail.

That would be the minimum cue ball travel for any cushion. Anything less than that are dead rails.

 

[His Boy Elroy]

Elroy, I just started playing pool almost 2 years ago again after 30 years, and I too had the chance to get my boyhood pool table which I gladly did. When I was a kid I did not know pool halls even existed, as far as I knew there were 2 kinds of tables, slate and not slate, if you had a slate table in your basement you had a good table. I did notice that bar tables were faster than ours when I would go to a bar with my parents, but I figured that was just because the table was smaller, we had an 8' table. So anyway, almost 2 years ago I get this table and set it up in my basement and it plays terrible at best. I am comparing it to a Valley cause Im in a bar league. So I stop by our local Billiard store and ask the owner whats wrong? After explaining the brand of table he tells me it will never play good cause the rails dont bolt down thru the slate, which I know to be a fact cause I set it up. I am a custom metal fabricator and I figure there is certainly something I can do to improve the basic structure. After way too much time screwing around with it I cant improve the way it plays. During this time I also went to a pool hall, I was stunned by how beatiful the table there played, so I took a good look at it. I then went home and read everything I could on the interweb about tables and why some play good and some dont. After becoming informed I find a Gold Crown on Craigslist by accident while looking at an Olhausen. I imediately went and bought the Gold Crown, it was in pristine condition and came with a floor standing Bunswick cue stand, many 1 piece cues, balls, and cover etc., all for less than what I can buy a Hoppe Titlist that came with the deal. I recovered the table, had the rails modified, and new cushions installed. I think I still have less than 2k in the table including purchase price and I could not be happier. It was a great educating tool as I set both tables up myself and now I see the difference between what a quality table is and what I would call a not very nice table and difference is incredible. There is no MDF or plywood on my Gold Crown and many of the fasteners are inslalled so that they do not thread into wood which I believe increases structual rigidity. The way the rails attach on the GC is much more stable and the whole table itself is much, much heavier. But the GC is also a commercial table. I will probably be belittled for this but if I could only fit a 7' table in my basement I would get a used Valley just because it is a commercial table. My mom came over and played pool at our house, the first she said was "hey, that is not my old table". I then told her what a P.O.S. her old table was and that I had to burn it in our burn barrel which I in fact did (we are in the country and can burn garbage). She told me when my parents originally bought it they were under the impression it was supposed to be a good table, it was not a "cheap" one and they did buy it from a billiards store FWIW.

Very thought provoking; thanks. I did, however, just run downstairs. The rails are screwed to the slate.

 

[His Boy Elroy]

Your cushions are dead, Jim.

Well; I was told by another poster that he has a brunswick that his dad bought used in 1968 and he hasn't changed the cushions once. He says if they're hard, they're good no matter how old they are. Mine are hard so I think their good and I'll believe him before you because he has a history of smart sounding posts and you just called me Jim.

My name is Tim....nice to meet ya!

You know, I'm so embarrassed by the quality of some of my previous posts
That I frequently vow the next time I appear in these forums it's gonna be as a first time poster named "His Dog Astro." I've changed my mind on the name. I think I'll appear as a first time poster named "Beer Sipper."

 

[Tony_in_MD]

1. If your cushions are hard they are bad.

2. The buzzing you hear could be caused by loose rail bolts. Inspect the bolts from under the table and tighten them up.

Well, you can't play on a table for 42 years without becoming awful fond of it, no matter the quality. Nevertheless; I can be critical of it

Here's what's bad about it: the ball bounces off 5 of 6 cushions very slowly. In fact what started this whole thing is last weekend I was complaing in a post that the table plays slow so I put 760 on it and it still plays slow. After convincing posters that I put the cloth on right side up and pulled it tight they told me the cloth was probably mighty fast and the problem was probably with the cushions.

I still have the original cushions on. So I decided to change the cushions. Then I was told by a poster that he has cushions on his Brunswick from 1968 and they're still hard. He said if they're hard it doesn't matter if they're old. The only reason to change them is if they're soft.

My cushions are stii very hard. So I did some experimenting and discovered that when the ball bounced off 5 of the 6 cushions, there was a buzz, or vibrations which indicated that things were not quite stable - maybe a little flimsy. On 1 of the rails there was no buzz at all. The ball bounced best on that one. The ball bounced the slowest off the rail with the biggest buzz

I then thought maybe there was looseness in regards to the cushion and the GLUE and the structure it's glued to. I determined that's not the case. I now believe the culprit to be general flimsiness of the solid structures; those solid structures being the structure the cushion is glued to combined with the frame. It's just become generally flimsy

What do I like about it: everything else. ( not that the slow rails aren't a huge issue) It has 3 pieces of one inch slate. The ball rolls very true. I retains it's levelness extremely well. It is perfectly level right now. In 42 years it hasn't become un- level more than 5 times. The ball rolls very true down the rail. It has a ball return that we've never had a single problem with. Why they decided to have a one inch shelf with 4 1/2 pockets I can't figure out, but if I hit the ball in cleanly, I know I hit it well. So I really don't need anybody to tell me what I have. I know what I have. The only problem is the flimsy infrastructure leading to slow rails. Although it is the only problem, it is a very large problem as far as the playability of the table. This is the case after 42 years. When we first bought it the infrastructure solidly supported the rail. So as I said, the whole point of the main forum thread was to convince folks that Fats sold a line of expensive supposed quality tables along with their inexpensive line which most posters believe is the only line of Fats tables. I just should have used the phrase supposed quality instead of quality and we could have avoided some of the brouhaha. If the situation with the rail causes you to judge the table as being of low quality, I respect yore opinion

Real King Cobra,
I hope we didn't get off on the wrong foot. I few private posters have informed me that you really know your stuff.

 

[Ralph Kramden]

His Boy.... with the CB in the kitchen, you should hit at least 4 cushions the full length of the table.
The CB should hit the foot rail, back to the head rail, back to the foot rail, and back to the head rail.

That would be the minimum cue ball travel for any cushion. Anything less than that are dead rails.

His Boy Elroy... Behind the break line in case you thought I was referring to the room with a fridge.

 

[His Boy Elroy]

1. If your cushions are hard they are bad.

2. The buzzing you hear could be caused by loose rail bolts. Inspect the bolts from under the table and tighten them up.

Well; thanks for the suggestion Tony, but I've been checking the bolts on a consistent basis. I might just get some pro's in here to look at it. So you also think if the cushions are hard they could be dead? I feel bad for dismissing wine slob so rudely now!

 

[Club Billiards]

Well; thanks for the suggestion Tony, but I've been checking the bolts on a consistent basis. I might just get some pro's in here to look at it. So you also think if the cushions are hard they could be dead? I feel bad for dismissing wine slob so rudely now!

Hard rails = dead rails. It's possible the guy that told you if they're not hard they're bad has no clue what he's talking about, or meant if they are hard they're bad. Either way, I feel he misinformed you. Also, I've seen old Brunswicks with Superspeed rubber on them that very well could still have the original rubber on them 50 years later and it still be in great condition. What is true for his table may not also be true for yours.

The point of my post...according to my online sight-unseen diagnostics, you very well could have dead rails. That's definitely worth considering. If you're hearing a buzz or rattle when the balls hits the rails that sounds like something is loose....there's a good chance...wait for it...something is loose. It might not be the rail bolts. It could be the skirts or something else. Dead rails can thump when you hit them though where new live rails on a table with well secured structure will play quiet.

Where are you located? Maybe one of the pros can check it out for you?

 

[Donny Wessels]

Well; I was told by another poster that he has a brunswick that his dad bought used in 1968 and he hasn't changed the cushions once. He says if they're hard, they're good no matter how old they are. Mine are hard so I think their good and I'll believe him before you because he has a history of smart sounding posts and you just called me Jim.

My name is Tim....nice to meet ya!

You know, I'm so embarrassed by the quality of some of my previous posts
That I frequently vow the next time I appear in these forums it's gonna be as a first time poster named "His Dog Astro." I've changed my mind on the name. I think I'll appear as a first time poster named "Beer Sipper."

Tim, The older cushions don't get hard they get soft when there bad. The advice you got is only good based on the age of the table. In the eight's they started using clay fillers in the cushions and now when cushions go bad they get hard as a rock.

 

[rexus31]

How are those pics coming?

 

[His Boy Elroy]

How are those pics coming?

I just posted 2 pics over in the main forum.

 

[His Boy Elroy]

Hard rails = dead rails. It's possible the guy that told you if they're not hard they're bad has no clue what he's talking about, or meant if they are hard they're bad. Either way, I feel he misinformed you. Also, I've seen old Brunswicks with Superspeed rubber on them that very well could still have the original rubber on them 50 years later and it still be in great condition. What is true for his table may not also be true for yours.

The point of my post...according to my online sight-unseen diagnostics, you very well could have dead rails. That's definitely worth considering. If you're hearing a buzz or rattle when the balls hits the rails that sounds like something is loose....there's a good chance...wait for it...something is loose. It might not be the rail bolts. It could be the skirts or something else. Dead rails can thump when you hit them though where new live rails on a table with well secured structure will play quiet

Where are you located? Maybe one of the pros can check it out for you.


I've been thinking that getting a pro out here might be the best course of action. I live just off the west side of Chicago.