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The Wisdom Of Larry Hubbart
- Thread starter Paul Schofield
- Start date
Not really. Call it a concession if you will, the game has to start somehow. Since there is no shot anyone would take if they had to call it, every game would open with a safety and many of the things that 8 Ball is known for would be taken away.
The opening safety is fine for straight pool because it's not a single rack game. Played well, and the opening break is one of the few times a safety is played right after the balls are racked. But if every game of 8 ball opened with a safety, well, people have places to be in the morning. Additionally, an opening safety would take away many of the nuance that make 8 Ball a great game. It would diminish the strategy and skill in reading the open table to choose the correct group and greatly reduce pattern play skill and cue ball control if you are culling one ball at a time out of the pile. These require the balls be spread on the break. Therefore the concession of not having to call a ball on the break. And to an extent it does reward the player who has developed his break.
You really don't know this stuff?
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Yes. For over 40 years, there wasn't a requirement for calling shots in 8-ball. Probably longer, but I don't know what written rules were out there prior to 1948.
This thread borders on the ridiculous at times. I think posters who have played a significant amount of both styles have the best information.
Consider call-every-detail rules. Why don't we have a barn-raising for those rules? That would eliminate the "I didn't mean it that way, but it went in my pocket" scenario. (And for those that don't get it, I am not an advocate of calling all the details)
Freddie <~~~ easier to run means easier for the better player
And to add to this, Darts doesn require calling the shot. And better players still miss their shot and get credit for whatever thy end up hitting.
And worse players hit nothing they end up shooting for but still not only get to keep playing but can enjoy the game and ago I with it if they want in order to improve. But it's key that they get to keep playing and have some chance of fun or else darts loses a significant amount of participants.
The better players will always be better. Rules don't change that.
Freddie <~~~ can't hit the board
And worse players hit nothing they end up shooting for but still not only get to keep playing but can enjoy the game and ago I with it if they want in order to improve. But it's key that they get to keep playing and have some chance of fun or else darts loses a significant amount of participants.
The better players will always be better. Rules don't change that.
Freddie <~~~ can't hit the board
Not being one of those players, the answer is: There is no other way to start such a game, is there?
Jeff Livingston
I can't believe this hasn't been brought up, but what about the clusters of balls that have to be dealt with in 8 ball? It is truely a thing a beauty to watch a good 8 ball player navigate through them, bump the balls on the correct side, etc,etc.....With slop rules we can just blast into them and hope for the best? Maybe not many balls are getting slopped in during your tournaments, but the whole dynamic and strategy of the game changes knowing that you can get rewarded for a "hail mary" shot.
Also, I think the 3 foul rule makes 8 ball a much more interesting game and I enjoy playing it this way.
Also, I think the 3 foul rule makes 8 ball a much more interesting game and I enjoy playing it this way.
OMG, the whole thread was an elaborate setup. Are you Keyser Soze?!
We've all been trapped into admitting no-conflict breaking is best!
Your sig:
Basicly the break has turned into a trick shot. Get the balls where you want them ,hit them here and its dead.
A slop shot is not the same as a trick shot. So which is it?
If it's a trick shot, it's one that's challenging enough that even pros only make it maybe 75%-ish of the time.
But it's true there's slop in it also. You can miss the 'dead' (not really) trick shot and make something else.
The answer (as always) boils down to how much you want to balance 'fairness' with 'fun'.
If pool somehow had 100% fairness, the better player never loses and there's no reason for an APA 6 to play an APA 7.
So, we allow a certain amount of luck to keep it interesting and give the worse player a chance.
The "certain amount" is where we differ.
Yeah but the better player won't always win, and knowing you're better isn't much solace if your opponent's
slop knocks you out of the tournament. In fact it might make it worse.
Yup, he already mentioned his tournament changed and players shot more for slop.
Somewhere there's a bunch of amateur players who have cashed using a 'blaster' shot,
and have decided that's the correct way to play pool.
Calling balls in Eight-Ball is the brain child of the very average / mediocre player. Eight-Ball is their game. A very good player approaches and plays the game of Eight-Ball the same way whether it is called shot or not. Do you really think it matters to a top player? To take it a step further, most very good players despise the game of Eight-Ball and care little about it and what goes on with it. Few will publicly admit it. If it was the only game left, they would quit playing pool forever. They play it because the average player can relate to it.
Personally myself, I value 1 average player much more than 1 champion.
Now I know all you folks love the game of Eight-Ball and that is a good thing. The called ball is overvalued. I think it is in the way, therefore I got rid of it for my tournaments. Play the game however you like. I am saying that not calling balls makes for better events.
Larry Hubbart's success makes a good case for not calling balls in Eight-Ball. The rules have the broadest appeal.
I want to be clear: I am not telling anyone what to do. I am telling you what I am doing.
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OMG, the whole thread was an elaborate setup. Are you Keyser Soze?!
We've all been trapped into admitting no-conflict breaking is best!
Your sig:
Basicly the break has turned into a trick shot. Get the balls where you want them ,hit them here and its dead.
A slop shot is not the same as a trick shot. So which is it?
If it's a trick shot, it's one that's challenging enough that even pros only make it maybe 75%-ish of the time.
But it's true there's slop in it also. You can miss the 'dead' (not really) trick shot and make something else.
The answer (as always) boils down to how much you want to balance 'fairness' with 'fun'.
If pool somehow had 100% fairness, the better player never loses and there's no reason for an APA 6 to play an APA 7.
So, we allow a certain amount of luck to keep it interesting and give the worse player a chance.
The "certain amount" is where we differ.
Yeah but the better player won't always win, and knowing you're better isn't much solace if your opponent's
slop knocks you out of the tournament. In fact it might make it worse.
Yup, he already mentioned his tournament changed and players shot more for slop.
Somewhere there's a bunch of amateur players who have cashed using a 'blaster' shot,
and have decided that's the correct way to play pool.
Good post, CreeDo.
All the "call nothing" advocates seem to be saying the same thing: that the "luck" inherent in "call nothing," "balances out." That is, if the rolls aren't going your way, Lady Luck will soon abandon your opponent, and grace you instead. "Just give her time."
So how does that "balance out" when you're playing *this one match*, and it's the finals of a major tournament, where the pay gap between first and second place is pretty significant? That one slopped ball your opponent made, made the difference, and he/she (not you) is standing on the winner's platform.
Let me guess -- "wait 'til next time, and Lady Luck will be on your side"? That's not very comforting to someone that lost a key match because of a lucky roll.
Or, let me guess -- "you lost because you 'allowed' a slop shot to beat you. You should've played a bit better, played a better safety, not missed a shot, etc."
Right? Once again, this does NOTHING to fix the problem in the first place. Pool is a game of skill. It's not a card game, "luck of the draw," "play the hand dealt you," or what-have-you. It's more akin to bowling. You're trying to bowl strikes on the first throw, and spares to pick up what's left in case you don't bowl a strike. You get no credit if you throw a ball so bad that you miss your lane completely and knock pins over in the next lane. If you throw a gutter ball, you suffer the penalty of not scoring on that throw, and this has a DIRECT affect on your score.
Sure, with good players, slop has very little affect on the player while he/she is controlling the table. But it DOES have an affect when he/she is NOT at the table, and the "luck evens out" thing has very little consolation value when one slopped shot meant the difference between winning or losing that crucial match.
-Sean
I agree, Sean. I've said something similar many times in threads about slop vs. call shot. Here's a piece of it again: "People often argue that "luck evens out," or winning on a lucky shot, such as a slop-in, is so rare among top players that we shouldn't worry about it. Well, luck may even out over a lifetime, but it need not do so in any given match or tournament. And it's the rareness of the lucky shot that makes it so much more critical. If it happened every second shot, then both players in a match would benefit and suffer fairly equally. But when it happens only rarely, it becomes enormous and can really mean the difference between winning and losing."
I care very little about any of this. You have brought up the concerns of the player. Mine are the concerns of the event, league, and tournament director and pomoter. My priorities involve running successful and exciting events, full fields, smooth and fun tournaments, appealing to the largest number of people, and getting more people interested and involved in the game.
Paul, I like how you're careful to say "I'm not telling you what to do",
I guess in case you might offend someone or come across as presumptuous.
I guess it doesn't occur to you that "calling balls is the brainchild of the very average/mediocre player".
is an offensive and presumptuous statement.
In a nutshell, "if you don't agree with me, you probably suck at pool". Thanks buddy.
Try this one on for size:
"Preferring slop is the brainchild of very weak beginners who get the most benefit from it."
Oh well. I dunno why I argue with you, you decide ahead of time what you think is best for pool,
then WITHOUT FAIL say "I tried it in my tournament and it was a smashing success and
everyone loved it and it never caused a problem".
If you really were a free-thinking experimenter you'd occasionally come up with a dud idea and say
"I tried this but it didn't work too well."
I guess in case you might offend someone or come across as presumptuous.
I guess it doesn't occur to you that "calling balls is the brainchild of the very average/mediocre player".
is an offensive and presumptuous statement.
In a nutshell, "if you don't agree with me, you probably suck at pool". Thanks buddy.
Try this one on for size:
"Preferring slop is the brainchild of very weak beginners who get the most benefit from it."
Oh well. I dunno why I argue with you, you decide ahead of time what you think is best for pool,
then WITHOUT FAIL say "I tried it in my tournament and it was a smashing success and
everyone loved it and it never caused a problem".
If you really were a free-thinking experimenter you'd occasionally come up with a dud idea and say
"I tried this but it didn't work too well."
I still have a hard time understanding how this could change the turn out and enjoyment so drastically that it's cause to shout it from the rooftops and bow down at the alter of Larry Hubbard. The only thing that makes any sense is that all his APA players decided to participate now that it was being played by their rules.
Either that or he left out the part about free beer.
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I am just curious, what prompted the idea of not calling balls in these tournaments? Was it based on APA rules, or did many players come to you and say "I really think we should just sh*t the balls in the entire time, it will be more fun." Also, what other rules do you play by or is basically BCA rules minus the called shot? Though I firmlly disagree with no called shots, especially the 8 WTF, I would have to say the worst thing is keep what you make after the break, that thoroughly screws up the game of 8 ball.
Good question and I will be happy to answer. I am tied up untill Saturday. I will answer it then. Getting it all into one short, concise, readable post is a challenge.
8-ball started as a no-call game. Start there.
As I've mentioned many times before Paul, "not calling balls in Eight-ball" is not the brain-child of Larry Hubbart or Terry Bell. Those were the PROFESSIONAL Rules of 8-ball at the time the two started the APA (slop was the rule just like 9-ball was). There's not much mystique in that. It's not like they said "hey let's change the rules."
The organized handicap system on a national scale is what makes the APA the juggernaut that it is. You've got a bit of non-sequitur going tying together the rules with the success. That's just not the case.
If you played ten thousand games of no calll versus call, how many do you think you'd lose due to a slopped ball versus how many you'd lose due to a lucky leave by your opponent?
I'll give you a hint. It's about a hundred to one if not more.
As someone who has played thousands of each game style, it's not even close. And if you've played thousands of each, there is zero way you'd disagree. Zero. The lucky leave by far exceeds any slopped ball win so much that the slopped ball idea is insignificant. Let's not play fantasy here.
I could take either ruleset. I'm going to lose due to a lucky leave every day (every hour) I play. Pool is a skill game with a ton of inherent luck. That's one of the beauties of playing. Sometimes we smile about getting the luck; sometimes we throw things when it goes against us.
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