Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM

[SJDinPHX]

One pocket is reasonably difficult, although it does take about 3 weeks to learn how the game strategically works and the "touch" shots required.

Earl Strickland hardly ever plays one pocket and finished 2nd in the Derby City and if he would have made ONE crucial shot he would have beat Shane in the finals (Shane isn't really a one pocket player either but picked up the game rather well).

I think one pocket is a beautiful game, but 'Two Shot Shoot Out' is still more challenging mentally, physically and strategically. If anyone ever wants to debate this live on streaming with a pool table I'll cover any bets that I can prove my opinion beyond a reasonable doubt. I say this in the best interest of the game and disclosing the truth about the inner most strategic integrity that's been kept secret for the last 30 years.

'The Game is the Teacher'

You have made some very bold, and possibly irrational statements !..That I have a problem with !

#1, Neither Earl, nor SVB were polished 1 pocket players, when they played in the finals at DCC...They both got very lucky to get that far, and that was ONLY due to the 'short race' factor ! (soft draws helped a lot too) The top Filipino's, were busy knocking each other off !!!

# 2, It takes longer to learn the finer points of one pocket, than ANY other game on a pool table. This is a well known fact, to ALL the top player's, some, (like you) just won't admit it !..Try telling that to Billy Incardona, or Buddy Hall, both of whom were 9 ball champions, for most of their carreer's...Neither one would tangle with a top one pocket player like Ronnie Allen, Efren, (or SEVERAL others) even up for the cash, until they eventually, after many years, learned the game ! (but you knew that, didn't you ?)

#3, You would be hard pressed, to convince me, (or any other quality player, who has been around pool as long as I have) that you have some "well kept, ultra strategic secret", regarding a simple game like 9ball that, that only YOU have kept secret for 30 yrs., from the hundreds of players who played near your speed (or better) That is just a little bit 'over the top', isn't it ?

You are quite safe, waving your challenge wagers around, as it is obvious NO ONE is going to convince you, you are mistaken !.."The game is the teacher" in one pocket too, it just takes a LOT longer !

 

[CJ Wiley]

to play at that level again would take me 3 solid weeks of playing ever day.........

You have made some very bold, and possibly irrational statements !..That I have a problem with !

#1, Neither Earl, nor SVB were polished 1 pocket players, when they played in the finals at DCC...They both got very lucky to get that far, and that was ONLY due to the 'short race' factor ! (soft draws helped a lot too) The top Filipino's, were busy knocking each other off !!!

# 2, It takes longer to learn the finer points of one pocket, than ANY other game on a pool table. This is a well known fact, to ALL the top player's, some, (like you) just won't admit it !..Try telling that to Billy Incardona, or Buddy Hall, both of whom were 9 ball champions, for most of their carreer's...Neither one would tangle with a top one pocket player like Ronnie Allen, Efren, (or SEVERAL others) even up for the cash, until they eventually, after many years, learned the game ! (but you knew that, didn't you ?)

#3, You would be hard pressed, to convince me, (or any other quality player, who has been around pool as long as I have) that you have some "well kept, ultra strategic secret", regarding a simple game like 9ball that, that only YOU have kept secret for 30 yrs., from the hundreds of players who played near your speed (or better) That is just a little bit 'over the top', isn't it ?

You are quite safe, waving your challenge wagers around, as it is obvious NO ONE is going to convince you, you are mistaken !.."The game is the teacher" in one pocket too, it just takes a LOT longer !

I've never represented that I have any secret that isn't known by many players including Buddy Hall, Allen Hopkins, Wade Crane, Jersey Red, Weldon Rogers, Omaha John, Johnny Archer, Earl Strickland, and many more, some living and some are unfortunately no longer with us.


Buddy Hall has a winning record against Efren in Tournament One Pocket matches. If you don't think Buddy is a SUPER strong one pocket player you're obviously not informed as well as you could be. Shane beat Scott Frost with a 9/8 and he also beat Efren (in the Philippines) with 8/7 and SHANE USED A HOUSE STICK!. Yes, indeed.

To think that it takes only "luck" (without polished skill) to get to the finals of the Derby City One Pocket is ludicrous. Short races require even more consistency than longer ones because you can't afford to make ANY mistakes or you potentially lose. That field is extremely deep with talent and justifying players getting knocked out as a factor is also short sighted.

I played a lot of one pocket in the mid 90s and won substantial scores (one was over 30k giving Amarillo Slim 14/5, 15/5 in Baton Rouge LA) so it's not a mystery {to me} what it takes to play the game at the highest levels. I still think the game is boring at times especially if the players are primarily defensive......maybe they need a 20 second shot clock to light a fire under their decision making abilities.

I didn't grow up playing the game so to play at that level again would take me 3 solid weeks of playing ever day......no more, no less. Playing 'Two Shot Shoot Out' takes FAR more ability than one pocket and I can set up a plethora of shots to prove it. 'The Game is our Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

Reminds me of a TV Show that used to on when I was just reaching 60 years old.

To not hi-jack thread, CJ would be best served to keep it at short races (to-13) and a freeze on the winnings. IMO, early doesn't matter for your game. You get stronger the longer you play. His stamina would take years to build up in order to match your late game.

Wow, how old do people think I am anyway, 80 or 90 ? :rotflmao1:

I never thought I'd see the day that someone......anyone.... would claim that endurance is my weakness.....and in a day and age that only a few people gamble at pool. This must be come kind of cruel joke.....reminds me of a TV Show that used to on way back when I was just reaching 60 years old.

It's like they said, I've entered another dimension of sight and sound......wait, I see the sign post ahead....what does it say???

 

[JB Cases]

Wow, how old do people think I am anyway, 80 or 90 ? :rotflmao1:

I never thought I'd see the day that someone......anyone.... would claim that endurance is my weakness.....and in a day and age that only a few people gamble at pool. This must be come kind of cruel joke.....reminds me of a TV Show that used to on way back when I was just reaching 60 years old.

It's like they said, I've entered another dimension of sight and sound......wait, I see the sign post ahead....what does it say???

Speculation presented as fact is the number one activity on the internet.

People who have never ever known and will never know what pool looks like from the champion's perspective will nonetheless speak authoratively as if they know for sure what a person is capable of.

I mean in a time when people can go on the net and easily find thousands of videos of people doing incredible things at all ages it still seems impossible to them that a former champion can play championship level again.

The world record holder for most chin ups in one minute is 50 years old I think.

 

[backplaying]

The histories of sports are littered with champions of one era who either tried to keep up or return to competition and failed. True, there are some champions that can lift their game, but predominantly the efforts of most fall short.

Yes, fundamentals are fundamentals, but it goes far beyond that. Just because a player's fundamentals make them a monster on 5" pockets against their US contemporaries does not mean they will be a monster on 4.5" pockets against an international field of super stars.

*Everyone* plays better now. *All* the equipment is more challenging now. And the fields now are *ridiculously* tougher with the Asians and Europeans present and accounted for as well as a home town team that is far superior than those of the 80's and 90's.

IMO, CJ's game was well suited for the level of play and the equipment of his era. But I don't believe he has the tools to be competitive in today's environment of tougher equipment and tougher fields. You have to bring more precision and more consistency and a generally higher level of play nowadays. I don't think he's got any of that. Just my opinion. Ergo, I don't think he can win regardless of the rules.

Lou Figueroa

I would say CJ most likely plays the 6 or 7 under his past top speed, but he offered you the last 5, didn't he? Or was it just the last 4? Look, there are many things you can lose besides the ability to run out. You can lose your killer instinct, love of the game and several other things that can keep you from ever playing at the level you played before. I think the tables play easier now because it is just a finesse game now, it doesn't take a powerful stroke anymore, not to mention the main factor of how much easier it is to make balls on the break because of the faster speed of the tables now.

 

[Mikjary]

Wow, how old do people think I am anyway, 80 or 90 ? :rotflmao1:

I never thought I'd see the day that someone......anyone.... would claim that endurance is my weakness.....and in a day and age that only a few people gamble at pool. This must be come kind of cruel joke.....reminds me of a TV Show that used to on way back when I was just reaching 60 years old.

It's like they said, I've entered another dimension of sight and sound......wait, I see the sign post ahead....what does it say???

CJ,

Somebody told me your middle initial was "F", for Fossil. :smile: Don't worry, I get the same thing from the young guns in martial arts classes I teach...until they get schooled with the gear on.

Best,
Mike

 

[backplaying]

Wow, how old do people think I am anyway, 80 or 90 ? :rotflmao1:

I never thought I'd see the day that someone......anyone.... would claim that endurance is my weakness.....and in a day and age that only a few people gamble at pool. This must be come kind of cruel joke.....reminds me of a TV Show that used to on way back when I was just reaching 60 years old.

It's like they said, I've entered another dimension of sight and sound......wait, I see the sign post ahead....what does it say???

I haven't met a young road player yet that can play a marathon. Most of these road players now think 8 hours is a long time to play. I have had several to quit me winner, claiming they were just to tired to play any longer. How many young players today could play for over 40 hours straight? You don't have to be in shape to play for long hours, I'm proof of that. You do have to have heart though.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Pool has de evolved over time and that's a fact!

I would say CJ most likely plays the 6 or 7 under his past top speed, but he offered you the last 5, didn't he? Or was it just the last 4? Look, there are many things you can lose besides the ability to run out. You can lose your killer instinct, love of the game and several other things that can keep you from ever playing at the level you played before. I think the tables play easier now because it is just a finesse game now, it doesn't take a powerful stroke anymore, not to mention the main factor of how much easier it is to make balls on the break because of the faster speed of the tables now.

That sure is the Truth!!! I'm not saying it's a "sissy game" these days.....wait a minute.......:yeah:

Don't forget they're now racing to 7 and 9 in major tournaments......we used to race to 15 on the PCA tour (except televised matches and we did 6 of them that played 3 times apiece).....Pool has de evolved over time and that's a fact! Easier equipment, easier rules, easier cloth, easier jumping cues, easier break cues, easier "magical racks", easier races,easier cue balls and crappy object balls.. and NO REFEREES RACKING..... AND NO TV COVERAGE!......BRUTAL!!! 'The Game is the P'd OFF Teacher' :groucho:

 

[CJ Wiley]

if he would have lasted 15 hours I would have changed

I haven't met a young road player yet that can play a marathon. Most of these road players now think 8 hours is a long time to play. I have had several to quit me winner, claiming they were just to tired to play any longer. How many young players today could play for over 40 hours straight? You don't have to be in shape to play for long hours, I'm proof of that. You do have to have heart though.

That's exactly what I've seen as well. We used to routinely play for two days straight and sometimes would go to tournaments and stay up the whole entire time gambling and playing tournament matches.

I played one of the younger players a couple years ago and after 10 hours he was almost begging to get out of the bet (we were playing 10 ahead).....the funny thing was I played him the whole time in cowboy boots ..... if he would have lasted 15 hours I would have changed to more comfortable shoes.....but he didn't make it.

 

[grindz]

....................................................................................................... I've been seeing this same scenario unfold for a million years. That's my opinion for what it's worth.
...............................................
.

You look really good for your age! Are you a vampire?? :wink:

td

 

[grindz]

I have to say....

I miss two foul 9 ball too...... and I'm only (and probably always was)

a banger!

td

 

[BeiberLvr]

Playing two foul push out vs one foul ball in hand.

Playing 1 foul, a playing could be running out and misses the 8 ball and leaves you hooked behind the 9 ball with nothing to do but kick, this is 1 way luck is involved with 1 foul!

Playing push out, Now if a player misses the 8 ball and hooks you behind the 9 ball, now luck is not going to cause you to lose while playing pushout, you can push the cue ball where ever you want to , this is where the BETTER player will win more then not, after you had pushed out the other player can make you shoot from there or take the shot himself.

What rules would you rather play, the rules where luck can beat you or the rules where luck cant beat you!

I hope CJ is right, that Push out is the future,

That way there will be no more hill hill matches and the player that misses the key shot will be awarded the match because after he missed the 8 ball he hooked his opponent by luck behind the 9Ball!

Ok, that's great and all. But what about when a player is running out, makes the 7 and freezes on the 8 due to poor positional play. Now all they have to do is call "push", and now they're no longer forced to kick.

Sure, they'll probably have to push to a bank or a jump shot, but at least they can choose a better percentage shot in case they have to shoot again. The reward is small, but it's there, and why should a player be rewarded for making an error.

 

[irock]

I think the old push out rules would be fair.
Gene made the trip and played Chris in his home room, I wonder if Chris would do the same, and make the trip and play CJ in his home room? Chris definitely has gamble, and will bet it up, so would that cover the incentive part CJ was speaking of? CJ, would you be interested in taking the time, and practice to get in stroke for a match with Chris. I think this match up, has all the signs of a classic.

 

[Rusty C]

The Two Shot Shoot Out rules were banished becuause prompoters wanted to expand the fields and speed up the tournaments.......it had nothing to do with what's right for the integrity of the game.

In "Ball in Hand" rules you will see a series of random shots, and run outs. In 'Two Shot Shoot Out' you will see a game of strategy and shot making. You can't win on a safety because it doesn't get you "ball in hand" on playing "chicken sh*t pool" (I apologize to all chickens for this reference )

PLAYING SAFE, KICKING and "DUCKING" (instead of going for challenging breakouts and tough shots) ARE THE WORST QUALITIES OF POOL, WHY PLAY RULES THAT BRING THEM OUT CONSISTENTLY?

In TWO SHOT you MUST come with a tough shot and out move your opponent to win and it becomes a BATTLE for the first shot.....the game becomes more like boxing because the two players must sparr and "wrestle" for each shot. This is where the beauty of the game is and it also brings back the SPOT SHOT and the TWO WAY SHOT which are VERY IMPORTANT aspect of rotation games like 9 Ball.

The Top players will still at the top playing these rules, but they will be forced to play the game in a way that brings out all the BEST attributes......instead of the worst ones.

"You have to make em wrestle you for that the first shot, CJ" - BUDDY BALL (The best 9 Ball player of them all).

Its real tough to explain the beauty of two foul.The one thing that was cool about it,is you was'nt always playing the table.You could take advantage of your opponents weaker shots,and roll out to them.

 

[8pack]

You're on the right track, however the "Roll Out" is to test the knowledge of the other player, not to simply give yourself an advantage.

Pocket billiards is a game of percentages and every shot has a built in "make/miss" percentage calculated using the table conditions, pressure conditions, shot-making skills, placement of the next ball in rotation, and a few other factors.

The most interesting thing is to see is how one player will start to expose the other's weaknesses in a very reasonable time frame. Some roll outs are just tests to see if the other one understands the deepest strategic level of the game....others' test the knowledge of safety play and other's test the ability to execute "two way shots" ...... the ultimate ones test the level of their opponents deepest processing of the game's teachings. "The Game" really is the teacher at the deepest subconscious level, but certainly not apparent at the surface's structure.

There are three levels to pocket billiards, there's the surface level that everyone can see, there's the deep level that takes many years to see, and then there's the subconscious level (The Zone or Dead Stroke) that no one can really see, we can just "allow to happen".

At this level you will no longer "play the game," the game will play "through" the player. We rarely see this state playing "Ball in Hand," although in 'Two Shot Shoot Out' you're virtually guaranteed to see it between the genuine champions because the game's shots and situations are controlled by the players rather than just random.

When I say random it means that the situations are not set up by the players, they are a result of a miss or a safety.....in "SHOOT OUT" the cue ball is placed into position each time.....there's a HUGE DIFFERENCE between the to scenarios.

This is the level that most people associate with Efren 'The Magician' Reyes and his kicking skills, and there's many other types of skills that "Two Shot" brings into play. Kicking is rarely one of them. 'The Game is the Teacher'

I agree ,the game is set up to bring the(all around) better player out on top.
It would be Great to see some player's like yourself playing it again.
Myself didn't care to play it,to much thinking for my poor brain at that time.

Actually at that time I used draw for every shot on the table.Why???Cause it looked cool.:smile:

Anthony

 

[jay helfert]

One pocket is reasonably difficult, although it does take about 3 weeks to learn how the game strategically works and the "touch" shots required.

Earl Strickland hardly ever plays one pocket and finished 2nd in the Derby City and if he would have made ONE crucial shot he would have beat Shane in the finals (Shane isn't really a one pocket player either but picked up the game rather well).

I think one pocket is a beautiful game, but 'Two Shot Shoot Out' is still more challenging mentally, physically and strategically. If anyone ever wants to debate this live on streaming with a pool table I'll cover any bets that I can prove my opinion beyond a reasonable doubt. I say this in the best interest of the game and disclosing the truth about the inner most strategic integrity that's been kept secret for the last 30 years.

'The Game is the Teacher'

I'll take this bet any time and any place.

 

[JB Cases]

I'll take this bet any time and any place.

Ladies and Gentlemen we have ACTION.

 

[Mr. Bond]

holy one-hole batman !

 

[jay helfert]

I would say CJ most likely plays the 6 or 7 under his past top speed, but he offered you the last 5, didn't he? Or was it just the last 4? Look, there are many things you can lose besides the ability to run out. You can lose your killer instinct, love of the game and several other things that can keep you from ever playing at the level you played before. I think the tables play easier now because it is just a finesse game now, it doesn't take a powerful stroke anymore, not to mention the main factor of how much easier it is to make balls on the break because of the faster speed of the tables now.

All good here. You get older and you lose your motivation and desire to play the game as much. Consequently you don't play as well as when you were on the table night and day. That's only to be expected. It is the rare player who stays with pool for life and remains dedicated to it.

 

[(((Satori)))]

Ladies and Gentlemen we have ACTION.

In this case I dont care about the action, or even who wins the debate for that matter. I would just like to hear more about CJ's strategies that make up the game of two shot foul. Then SJD and Jays strategy on one pocket. This thread could get really good, not as entertainment but for education. There is a lot of knowledge that could be exposed during a debate like this.