Thanks for the explanation. That sounds like a good set of rules, much better than Texas Express.
But what was your reason for not going all the way to what you call Two Shot Shoot Out?
Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM
- Thread starter HawaiianEye
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Thanks for the explanation. That sounds like a good set of rules, much better than Texas Express.
But what was your reason for not going all the way to what you call Two Shot Shoot Out?
If that's what you've taken away from all of this, then you're not very bright.
Nice post. Seems pretty cut and dry as far as the differences between the sets of rules and the strategy involved.
I haven't had time to read this entire thread, so hopefully this question isn't redundant, but wasn't "texas express" rules implemented to speed up play for tv?
NYC cue dude
Banned
Champs of yesteryear
Champions of years gone by may not stack up well compared to present day champions, IMO. The world has gotten smaller, so to speak. Previously, the only great pool champions were found right here in America. Mostly, because that is where the games had primarily been played. Today, pool is played all over the world. And there is incredible talent, in every small town, in every different country. What makes today different is that these players travel to compete. 25 years ago, these tournaments here were only contested by American players. After the Philippine invasion, things are different. Now the Europeans are a force to be reckoned with. China has 100's of players that are equal, if not better, than our American players. The few that have come out to test their mettle, have proved that. Korea and Japan have been producing monsters. The middle eastern countries will too, in a few short years.
Americans will never dominate the upper levels of the pool world again. Sure, we will produce the occasional phenom, like Shane, but there are just too many good players from all around the world. The only 2 countries that will consistently produce champions will be the Philippines and the Chinese.
Champions of years gone by may not stack up well compared to present day champions, IMO. The world has gotten smaller, so to speak. Previously, the only great pool champions were found right here in America. Mostly, because that is where the games had primarily been played. Today, pool is played all over the world. And there is incredible talent, in every small town, in every different country. What makes today different is that these players travel to compete. 25 years ago, these tournaments here were only contested by American players. After the Philippine invasion, things are different. Now the Europeans are a force to be reckoned with. China has 100's of players that are equal, if not better, than our American players. The few that have come out to test their mettle, have proved that. Korea and Japan have been producing monsters. The middle eastern countries will too, in a few short years.
Americans will never dominate the upper levels of the pool world again. Sure, we will produce the occasional phenom, like Shane, but there are just too many good players from all around the world. The only 2 countries that will consistently produce champions will be the Philippines and the Chinese.
I'm a huge fan of both CJ and CB -- I would love to watch them play.
CJ was pretty clear about wanting to play 2 shot push-out. CB said he'll give weight otherwise.
Why not just play alternating games, race to 3 "sets?"
Meaning, do something like race to 9, CJ's game, CB's game, CJ's game, etc?
Then, start the next set with CB's game, CJ's game, CB's game, etc?
First one to win 3 sets wins. Make the spot/game for each player's favorite option and even it out from there in alternating the games.
I wonder if CB plays golf or tennis? If so, they could play an all-around: 9b-2s, 10b, and either golf/tennis.
CJ was pretty clear about wanting to play 2 shot push-out. CB said he'll give weight otherwise.
Why not just play alternating games, race to 3 "sets?"
Meaning, do something like race to 9, CJ's game, CB's game, CJ's game, etc?
Then, start the next set with CB's game, CJ's game, CB's game, etc?
First one to win 3 sets wins. Make the spot/game for each player's favorite option and even it out from there in alternating the games.
I wonder if CB plays golf or tennis? If so, they could play an all-around: 9b-2s, 10b, and either golf/tennis.
Well Stated! The rules are obviously better, but for those that have never actually seen the difference have no referential index - it's like trying to explain why chess is better than Tick Tack Toe.
But there are reasons why tic tack toe is better than chess.
You can't play a game of chess in 20 seconds.
You can't play chess in the sand on a beach.
You can't play chess against a 5 yr old and have fun doing it.
You can't play Hollywood Squares using a chess board.
Your post made some good points, until you made these two statements..It is obvious you preferred rotation games, to one pocket..But like Jay says, (and I quote) "One pocket, is 10 times tougher to excel at, than 9 or 10 ball, regardless
of the rules" !
I am really surprised at your naivete, in this area !..The ONLY comparison may be audience enjoyment !..It does require a basic knowledge of one pocket, for a spectator to enjoy one pocket, but as more and more 'top players' (SVB, Earl, Orcullo, Alex, etc) are learning the game, most of them really enjoy the intricasies, and challenge of the game !.. All rotation games (regardless of the rules) are basically a "paint by the numbers" endeavor !...You just may be a little 'antiquated' re; the current climate of tournament, or hi-$$$$$ match-ups !..
You will lose a LOT of good paying customer's, (stream or live gate) if your mindset remains fixated, ONLY on shotmaking games !.. Modern players, and spectators, are starting to demand more strategy, than 9/10 ball, will EVER have to offer !..
Running 8 and out, in one pocket, is a very tough challenge, even for a TOP player !.. Whereas, an APA 5, often may
string 3 racks of 9ball together !...Jes' sayin'
SJD
PS..9 ball will still appeal to the 'uninformed, casual' pool fan...But it may not be that way forever !
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Just another example of someone rationalizing every thing that fits into whatever they are marketing/selling. I guess the lack of objectivity is the most annoying part.
Simplify....have the first shot after the break Every Game....mandatory roll out, whether your the breaker or not. With this rule....players would rather NOT make a ball on the break. It would be too their advantage to have their opponent ''roll out''.
The way we played it was for example... Your hooked. You can intentionally roll the ball to where there's a shot. Your opponent can shoot or make u shoot it . This can happen anytime in the game. If you scratch on the 8 then it spots up and your opponent shoots from behind the line.
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The Two Shot Shoot Out rules were banished becuause prompoters wanted to expand the fields and speed up the tournaments.......it had nothing to do with what's right for the integrity of the game.
In "Ball in Hand" rules you will see a series of random shots, and run outs. In 'Two Shot Shoot Out' you will see a game of strategy and shot making. You can't win on a safety because it doesn't get you "ball in hand" on playing "chicken sh*t pool" (I apologize to all chickens for this reference
PLAYING SAFE, KICKING and "DUCKING" (instead of going for challenging breakouts and tough shots) ARE THE WORST QUALITIES OF POOL, WHY PLAY RULES THAT BRING THEM OUT CONSISTENTLY?
In TWO SHOT you MUST come with a tough shot and out move your opponent to win and it becomes a BATTLE for the first shot.....the game becomes more like boxing because the two players must sparr and "wrestle" for each shot. This is where the beauty of the game is and it also brings back the SPOT SHOT and the TWO WAY SHOT which are VERY IMPORTANT aspect of rotation games like 9 Ball.
The Top players will still at the top playing these rules, but they will be forced to play the game in a way that brings out all the BEST attributes......instead of the worst ones.
"You have to make em wrestle you for that the first shot, CJ" - BUDDY BALL (The best 9 Ball player of them all).
I've thrown a few pieces of chalk up against the wall for missing a spot shot.I would practice them all the time,from all different positions along the headstring,and then soon as I got under pressure, I would dog it......................The main reason I liked playing 2 foul,was you could match up a good game with somebody.I remember there was a guy that could give me the last 2,but he could'nt give me the call 8.Playing 1 foul its not that big of difference.
Again, the best part of pocket billiards is the boxing aspects,
I think if you decided to play that way the incoming player would have the choice to roll out or have their opponent roll out......this stops some kind of "strategic breaking" to get an advantage. Again, the best part of pocket billiards is the boxing aspects, one foul especially when "racking your own balls" is more like just hitting a bag.
I also believe there should be less balls on the table if you play this way. "Running out" is pretty boring to watch, there's thousands of people that can run out most of the time. The real "art" of the game is battling for the first shot, there's very few players that can "outmove" a true champion player. It takes thousands of hours to learn all the "in's and out's" of the truly strategic games like 'Two Shot Shoot Out' and 'One Pocket'.
I know you're played your share of TWO SHOT, B. - like most things in life it's impossible to know unless someone's had the experience. It's impossible to know the power and presence of the ocean until you actually stick your foot in it. 'The Experience of the Game is the Teacher'
I think if you decided to play that way the incoming player would have the choice to roll out or have their opponent roll out......this stops some kind of "strategic breaking" to get an advantage. Again, the best part of pocket billiards is the boxing aspects, one foul especially when "racking your own balls" is more like just hitting a bag.
I also believe there should be less balls on the table if you play this way. "Running out" is pretty boring to watch, there's thousands of people that can run out most of the time. The real "art" of the game is battling for the first shot, there's very few players that can "outmove" a true champion player. It takes thousands of hours to learn all the "in's and out's" of the truly strategic games like 'Two Shot Shoot Out' and 'One Pocket'.
I know you're played your share of TWO SHOT, B. - like most things in life it's impossible to know unless someone's had the experience. It's impossible to know the power and presence of the ocean until you actually stick your foot in it.
'The Experience of the Game is the Teacher'
it does take about 3 weeks to learn how the game strategically works and the "touch"
One pocket is reasonably difficult, although it does take about 3 weeks to learn how the game strategically works and the "touch" shots required.
Earl Strickland hardly ever plays one pocket and finished 2nd in the Derby City and if he would have made ONE crucial shot he would have beat Shane in the finals (Shane isn't really a one pocket player either but picked up the game rather well).
I think one pocket is a beautiful game, but 'Two Shot Shoot Out' is still more challenging mentally, physically and strategically. If anyone ever wants to debate this live on streaming with a pool table I'll cover any bets that I can prove my opinion beyond a reasonable doubt. I say this in the best interest of the game and disclosing the truth about the inner most strategic integrity that's been kept secret for the last 30 years.
'The Game is the Teacher'
One pocket is reasonably difficult, although it does take about 3 weeks to learn how the game strategically works and the "touch" shots required.
Earl Strickland hardly ever plays one pocket and finished 2nd in the Derby City and if he would have made ONE crucial shot he would have beat Shane in the finals (Shane isn't really a one pocket player either but picked up the game rather well).
I think one pocket is a beautiful game, but 'Two Shot Shoot Out' is still more challenging mentally, physically and strategically. If anyone ever wants to debate this live on streaming with a pool table I'll cover any bets that I can prove my opinion beyond a reasonable doubt. I say this in the best interest of the game and disclosing the truth about the inner most strategic integrity that's been kept secret for the last 30 years.
'The Game is the Teacher'
When I started playing, push out was just leaving.From what I remember it seemed like the better player would always roll out to place that favored him.(The thought) I dont think he can make this but I can.The better player(shot maker )seemed to always win.These weren't champion players,above average though.
Would be interesting to see 2 champions going at it
Would be interesting to see 2 champions going at it
Playing two foul push out vs one foul ball in hand.
Playing 1 foul, a playing could be running out and misses the 8 ball and leaves you hooked behind the 9 ball with nothing to do but kick, this is 1 way luck is involved with 1 foul!
Playing push out, Now if a player misses the 8 ball and hooks you behind the 9 ball, now luck is not going to cause you to lose while playing pushout, you can push the cue ball where ever you want to , this is where the BETTER player will win more then not, after you had pushed out the other player can make you shoot from there or take the shot himself.
What rules would you rather play, the rules where luck can beat you or the rules where luck cant beat you!
I hope CJ is right, that Push out is the future,
That way there will be no more hill hill matches and the player that misses the key shot will be awarded the match because after he missed the 8 ball he hooked his opponent by luck behind the 9Ball!
Playing 1 foul, a playing could be running out and misses the 8 ball and leaves you hooked behind the 9 ball with nothing to do but kick, this is 1 way luck is involved with 1 foul!
Playing push out, Now if a player misses the 8 ball and hooks you behind the 9 ball, now luck is not going to cause you to lose while playing pushout, you can push the cue ball where ever you want to , this is where the BETTER player will win more then not, after you had pushed out the other player can make you shoot from there or take the shot himself.
What rules would you rather play, the rules where luck can beat you or the rules where luck cant beat you!
I hope CJ is right, that Push out is the future,
That way there will be no more hill hill matches and the player that misses the key shot will be awarded the match because after he missed the 8 ball he hooked his opponent by luck behind the 9Ball!
the consensus is the "pool world" is still flat in the winter
I'm surprised think that 48 is "too old" to play a game that requires such a limited physical prowess. I really like pocket billiards, however, I'd never claim that it takes much physically except maybe in the hands.
Mike Lebron won the US OPEN and I know he had terrible eye sight and still could make any shot that the "young guns" could make.
It's entertaining to see people's opinions, and the consensus is the "pool world" is still flat.
I'm surprised think that 48 is "too old" to play a game that requires such a limited physical prowess. I really like pocket billiards, however, I'd never claim that it takes much physically except maybe in the hands.
Mike Lebron won the US OPEN and I know he had terrible eye sight and still could make any shot that the "young guns" could make.
It's entertaining to see people's opinions, and the consensus is the "pool world" is still flat.
Cj would have to put his ski mask on if this happened. :thumbup:
There are three levels to pocket billiards, there's the surface level and............
You're on the right track, however the "Roll Out" is to test the knowledge of the other player, not to simply give yourself an advantage.
Pocket billiards is a game of percentages and every shot has a built in "make/miss" percentage calculated using the table conditions, pressure conditions, shot-making skills, placement of the next ball in rotation, and a few other factors.
The most interesting thing is to see is how one player will start to expose the other's weaknesses in a very reasonable time frame. Some roll outs are just tests to see if the other one understands the deepest strategic level of the game....others' test the knowledge of safety play and other's test the ability to execute "two way shots" ...... the ultimate ones test the level of their opponents deepest processing of the game's teachings. "The Game" really is the teacher at the deepest subconscious level, but certainly not apparent at the surface's structure.
There are three levels to pocket billiards, there's the surface level that everyone can see, there's the deep level that takes many years to see, and then there's the subconscious level (The Zone or Dead Stroke) that no one can really see, we can just "allow to happen".
At this level you will no longer "play the game," the game will play "through" the player. We rarely see this state playing "Ball in Hand," although in 'Two Shot Shoot Out' you're virtually guaranteed to see it between the genuine champions because the game's shots and situations are controlled by the players rather than just random.
When I say random it means that the situations are not set up by the players, they are a result of a miss or a safety.....in "SHOOT OUT" the cue ball is placed into position each time.....there's a HUGE DIFFERENCE between the to scenarios.
This is the level that most people associate with Efren 'The Magician' Reyes and his kicking skills, and there's many other types of skills that "Two Shot" brings into play. Kicking is rarely one of them. 'The Game is the Teacher'
You're on the right track, however the "Roll Out" is to test the knowledge of the other player, not to simply give yourself an advantage.
Pocket billiards is a game of percentages and every shot has a built in "make/miss" percentage calculated using the table conditions, pressure conditions, shot-making skills, placement of the next ball in rotation, and a few other factors.
The most interesting thing is to see is how one player will start to expose the other's weaknesses in a very reasonable time frame. Some roll outs are just tests to see if the other one understands the deepest strategic level of the game....others' test the knowledge of safety play and other's test the ability to execute "two way shots" ...... the ultimate ones test the level of their opponents deepest processing of the game's teachings. "The Game" really is the teacher at the deepest subconscious level, but certainly not apparent at the surface's structure.
There are three levels to pocket billiards, there's the surface level that everyone can see, there's the deep level that takes many years to see, and then there's the subconscious level (The Zone or Dead Stroke) that no one can really see, we can just "allow to happen".
At this level you will no longer "play the game," the game will play "through" the player. We rarely see this state playing "Ball in Hand," although in 'Two Shot Shoot Out' you're virtually guaranteed to see it between the genuine champions because the game's shots and situations are controlled by the players rather than just random.
When I say random it means that the situations are not set up by the players, they are a result of a miss or a safety.....in "SHOOT OUT" the cue ball is placed into position each time.....there's a HUGE DIFFERENCE between the to scenarios.
This is the level that most people associate with Efren 'The Magician' Reyes and his kicking skills, and there's many other types of skills that "Two Shot" brings into play. Kicking is rarely one of them. 'The Game is the Teacher'
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millions for the future of pool and it's professional players
I'm not in a position to go to Virginia or Indiana to play him or anyone else.....I wouldn't go if I was guaranteed to win, it's just not "time feasible" at this time. I have priorities in life and after playing literally hundreds of high dollar pool matches gambling is low on my list (of priorities). I actually feel like it would be digressing to go back to that habit.
My priority is business that will make millions for the future of pool/players and me gambling has no part in this plan. Pool needs to be back on TV and if I don't do it I'm not sure who else will.....looking at the last 13 years it appears no one has the desire to put forth the effort to produce cutting edge billiard productions besides MatchRoom Sport/Barry H. and there's still plenty of room for improvement in this day and age.
'The Game is Our Teacher'
I'm not in a position to go to Virginia or Indiana to play him or anyone else.....I wouldn't go if I was guaranteed to win, it's just not "time feasible" at this time. I have priorities in life and after playing literally hundreds of high dollar pool matches gambling is low on my list (of priorities). I actually feel like it would be digressing to go back to that habit.
My priority is business that will make millions for the future of pool/players and me gambling has no part in this plan. Pool needs to be back on TV and if I don't do it I'm not sure who else will.....looking at the last 13 years it appears no one has the desire to put forth the effort to produce cutting edge billiard productions besides MatchRoom Sport/Barry H. and there's still plenty of room for improvement in this day and age.
'The Game is Our Teacher'